228 replies to this topic

[MrZakalwe]

Geminus, on 14 August 2013 - 03:19 AM, said:

You HAVING to run that PPC stalker means that you don't know what you are doing. You don't know how to build a mech, you don't know how to play a role. You are what is breaking the game. Not the weapons in your trend mech.

I don't have to run a 4PPC Stalker (I have plenty of other mechs) but this one works best- it wins midrange friefights, it doesn't run out of ammo, it doesn't run very hot, it doesn't have to reveal itself from cover for long at a time.

So you are now saying that I am doing it wrong by playing a mech that works and is incredibly good at its role and several others? The PPC being too damned effective isn't a problem me choosing to use them is the problem?

So if I find a mech setup that works very, very well (with 21 double heatsinks it really isn't hot) I'm supposed to scrap it and design a rubbish one?

[VXJaeger]

Must agree with OP.
Besides that, it doesn't matter if PPCs reloading time is 4 or 5 seconds if one wants to shoot accurately. Actually 5s reloading time would be better 'cause it'll force to cool longer, give extra time to aim and prevents overheating.
I'd buy that
In the end, if you have lost armor, run in the open and I see you from my Misery, you're dead no matter devs do to PPCs.
Just suck it up and adapt

4-6 PPC Stalkers/Awesomes and SRM36 A1-cheesecats were a problem, but not anymore after heatnerf.
AC40-Jagers were never a problem. Annoying though, but not a problem.
Dual-PPC+Gauss-builds are challenging, but when you get close, they are dead metal.

[Geminus]

Damocles69, on 14 August 2013 - 03:25 AM, said:

... people like this make me hate the internet

I honestly try to be nice and not say harsh things on the forum. But this series of topics has been raging a long time and it is frustrating. You honestly cut me with that. I try not to be one "of those people" on the forums.

Let me see if I can take a step back and reword this so as to not be combative or hostile.

All weapons are viable and have use in certain roles. One must look at the weapon, and see what role it fits. ie a hunchback with 8 medium lasers should not be trying to duel an awesome from 800 meters away.

It stikes me that many people that play they game, come into the game not having experianced mechwarrior or battletech before. I am under the impression that these players feel that the game shold be somewhat like halo or COD, and that all bullets are pretty much created equal.

This game has a varity of weapons that suited to a varity of roles. Many people seem to be taking whatever weapon is "trending" and taking it as the gospel. Instead they should be learning the roles of all the weapons.

An all PPC stalker is so narrow a build, as so many self imposed contraints that there are a varity of ways to kill it and a varity of builds that can acomplish it. My definition, a mech that is so specilized in use as a 4-6 PPC stalker is then lacking in every ther aspect.
That a player feels that "need" to take that build suggests to me that the buid has become a security blanket and what is comfortable, and so the player does not find new ways to do things.

The statement that the PPC is superior or that someone has to take their PPC build to be sussesfull suggests that any build wihtout this weapon will not be succesfull. This is not true. I have many mechs and many builds. Some have PPCs and some do not. I can be very succesfull in mechs that have no PPCs. I have a gameplay example but most go to an anpoitment.

I hope that this ilistrates the point that I am trying to make a little better without being hostle or negative. I apoligze to all for my worked up posts earlier, most espically to MRzakalwe who my most inflamtory comment was directed at.

Edited by Geminus, 14 August 2013 - 04:03 PM.

[MrZakalwe]

VXJaeger, on 14 August 2013 - 03:30 AM, said:

Must agree with OP.
Besides that, it doesn't matter if PPCs reloading time is 4 or 5 seconds if one wants to shoot accurately. Actually 5s reloading time would be better 'cause it'll force to cool longer, give extra time to aim and prevents overheating.
I'd buy that

wouldn't change a thing- you tend to poke your head out of cover, fire 2 PPCs, wait half a second, fire two more then duck back into cover and wait for it to recharge. increasing cooldown wont change a thing- reducing projectile speed would help as it would gimp your ability to hit faster mechs at range and then suddenly the PPC has a weakness and is no longer the perfect weapon.

I build my Stalkers to engage and destroy other assault mechs, it just happens I can also snuff out light, mediums and heavies with ease.

VXJaeger, on 14 August 2013 - 03:30 AM, said:

In the end, if you have lost armor, run in the open and I see you from my Misery, you're dead no matter devs do to PPCs.
Just suck it up and adapt

The issue is the ability of a PPC mech to engage you at most ranges with accurate fire and do loads of damage- no other weapon system can do this except possibly twin ERPPC + Gauss (which does it even better). Doesn't matter if you are full armoured, unless you are one of these two build you will lose the firefight if any cover is involved.

VXJaeger, on 14 August 2013 - 03:30 AM, said:

4-6 PPC Stalkers/Awesomes and SRM36 A1-cheesecats were a problem, but not anymore after heatnerf.

4 PPC Stalkers are still incredibly effective and 6 PPC Stalkers were always bad (5 was the magic number). I still have a high KD and winrate with a 4PPC Stalker and I'm not a great player- it just works way too well.

VXJaeger, on 14 August 2013 - 03:30 AM, said:

AC40-Jagers were never a problem. Annoying though, but not a problem.

They still work fine- you never hang around for more than 2 alphas as an AC40 Jager anyway- big flat torso and XL engine make that suicide

VXJaeger, on 14 August 2013 - 03:30 AM, said:

Dual-PPC+Gauss-builds are challenging, but when you get close, they are dead metal.

Except they aren't as both the Gauss and ERPPC work absolutely fine at point blank range and put out 35 damage alphas again and again with even greater accuracy without running hot and with minimal ammo problems- this build has no weaknesses on a Highlander; it works well at extreme range, mid range and close range.

It's why 8v8 was full of them and why 12v12 is now.

[Bromineberry]

In my dual PPC Hunchback I do way better, than in any other version and loadout right now. I get more kills, more assists, manage to stay alive longer and generally am more use to my team. Piloting the PPC Hunchback is simply much easier than piloting a "normal" HBK-SP with lasers and SRM. I don't think that's how it should be.

[D A T A]

ye need to shoot 3 ppcs without heat penality and ppcs need to do 8 heat, er ppc 11 heat but occupy 4 slots

[MrZakalwe]

Geminus, on 14 August 2013 - 03:42 AM, said:

I honestly try to be nice and not say harsh things on the forum. But this series of topics has been raging a long time and it is frustrating. You honestly cut me with that. I try not to be one "of those people" on the forums.

Let me see if I can take a step back and reword this so as to not be combative or hostile.

All weapons are viable and have use in certain roles. One must look at the weapon, and see what role it fits. ie a hunchback with 8 medium lasers should not be trying to duel an awesome from 800 meters away.

It stikes me that many people that play they game, come into the game not having experianced mechwarrior or battletech before. I am under the impression that these players feel that the game shold be somewhat like halo or COD, and that all bullets are pretty much created equal.

This game has a varity of weapons that suited to a varity of roles. Many people seem to be taking whatever weapon is "trending" and taking it as the gospel. Instead they should be learning the roles of all the weapons.

An all PPC stalker is so narrow a build, as so many self imposed contraints that there are a varity of ways to kill it and a varity of builds that can acomplish it. My definition, a mech that is so specilized in use as a 4-6 PPC stalker is then lacking in every ther aspect.
That a player feels that "need" to take that build suggests to me that the buid has become a security blanket and what is comfortable, and so the player does not find new ways to do things.

The statement that the PPC is superior or that someone has to take their PPC build to be sussesfull suggests that any build wihtout this weapon will not be succesfull. This is not true. I have many mechs and many builds. Some have PPCs and some do not. I can be very succesfull in mechs that have no PPCs. I have a gameplay example but most go to an anpoitment.

I hope that this ilistrates the point that I am trying to make a little better without being hostle or negative. I apoligze to all for my worked up posts earlier, most espically to MRzakalwe who my most inflamtory comment was directed at.

Np, I tend to assume people aren't as b*tchy as a forum post makes them sound as forums tend to bring out the worst in everybody and everybody tends to take anything they can in the worst possible way (we are all a little guilty of this).

What you have described is an ideal world where every weapon has a role and there are reasons to take all of them, sadly this is currently not the case.

I would very much like this game to be as you desribe.

[D A T A]

ye need to shoot 3 ppcs without heat penality and ppcs need to do 8 heat, er ppc 11 heat but occupy 4 slots

[MrZakalwe]

IL MECHWARRIOR, on 14 August 2013 - 03:59 AM, said:

ye need to shoot 3 ppcs without heat penality and ppcs need to do 8 heat, er ppc 11 heat but occupy 4 slots

You think PPCs need to be buffed? o_0

[Kazma]

OP didn't say anything that proves his opinion that PPCs/PinPoint damage (Convergence or whatever) isn't a problem, aside from saying that people are dumb.

I started running a Dual PPC+Gauss Cataphract this week. (And I don't like slow mechs)
It's is just ridiculously strong and easy to use. I think I'll play all the Assault mechs like this now.
Typical gameplay always goes like this:
look out of cover, F**k this, and f**k this, going back to cover. Easy kills.
And if someone is staying in front of me he's dead meat(metal), only if he's running the same/similiar build as mine.
Guess that makes everyone too stupid to Pilot their mechs when they die from that extremely innovative build.

[Sasha Volkova]

RENZOKUKEN, on 14 August 2013 - 02:12 AM, said:

Reducing the amount of pinpoint damage is not a problem.

Those of you who are in denial, with the false assumption that PPC need fixed in any way other than making sure they are damaging 100% when hitting, you need to face reality.

Reality is, PPC is a weapon in Mech Warrior that does pinpoint damage, this is in no way a problem or something that needs fixed. I have no idea where you got this from, but you are seriously dillusional if you think there is a problem with PPC or other direct damage weapons such as Gauss.

The reality is that different weapons are used in different roles. Just because you have a limited understanding of these roles and methods of play that different mechs and weapons excel in, does not mean the weapon itself is the problem. The problem is you and others like you who simply do not have a full grasp on the game. I am only assuming, you are expecting to be able to run in the open with damage over time weapons such as AC2 or AC5 or maybe a mech equipped with mostly close range weapons, and you expect to have an equal engagement with a mech that is fulfilling its role using long range, direct fire weapons and using cover?

Just because you have a limited understanding of how to pilot a mech effectively and how to effectively build a mech for a role and then play to that role, that does not mean the game itself needs to adjust or adapt to your play style, or lack of play style. This simply means that you need to realize the game is not the issue, but you are the one who needs to adapt your play style and find a way to effectively use the weapons you want to use in a tactical situation. For example, damage over time weapons could be extremely effective on a mech with enough speed to flank around the enemy, thus catching the enemy in a crossfire situation and without cover, leaving them exposed. By playing smart, all weapons and roles can be effective, but you have to know what they are, sniping mechs that use PPC, Gauss and ER Large are simply doing their job well, now it's your turn to pilot your mech well, or admit that you lost fair and square and stop bringing your complaints to these forums and spamming the developer's twitter accounts. Just because you are not able to figure out how to use a weapon effectively does not mean that the game itself is unbalanced, just you do not know what you are talking about in the first place.

Please, offer me some sort of correction, because I know what I am talking about.

I agree with "President Mac Mech" on this one.
In other words

[MrZakalwe]

0okami, on 14 August 2013 - 05:04 AM, said:

I agree with "President Mac Mech" on this one.
In other words

I especially like the bit where you 'like'd your own post

[Aluminumfoiled]

Mediums and Heavies (mainly Mediums) are my natural fit. Like them and do fine with them. 12v12 is getting to be 7-9 assaults with PPC and Gauss on all. I want to run a Med, I can go back to defend, last minute cap, support the big boys and girls, and chase off lights etc. Independent action when needed.

This 40+ pinpoint alpha is hard on meds and a big reason they are scarce I think. Not strong enough to withstand them and not big enough to use them. I feel the urge to just go assault and load up the Gauss/PPC myself. (Victor might be for me with the speed). But I am stubborn.

I guess make no changes if you want aplha war online and few new players. I have gotten to where I can minimize the exposure to the alpha strike but I almost always die cored CT by PPC gauss and throw in an AC xx. What do you want MWO to be?

Note I do not want to nerf PPC's in any way. I use just 1 often. Any more cool down or heat and boating will be the only use for them. But the current ppc gauss situation is not good for the game is what I'm afraid of. I also do not have the answer for this issue but I'm not paid to either. We will see I guess.

[Pinselborste]

the problem is that TT stats where never meant to be used in a realtime game where aiming is skillbased instead of dice based.

MWLL worked well with the same accuracy we have in mwo, but thats because they actually balanced the weapon for aiming.

[Karl Streiger]

Pinselborste, on 14 August 2013 - 05:10 AM, said:

the problem is that TT stats where never meant to be used in a realtime game where aiming is skillbased instead of dice based.

MWLL worked well with the same accuracy we have in mwo, but thats because they actually balanced the weapon for aiming.

QFT

[MrZakalwe]

Pinselborste, on 14 August 2013 - 05:10 AM, said:

the problem is that TT stats where never meant to be used in a realtime game where aiming is skillbased instead of dice based.

MWLL worked well with the same accuracy we have in mwo, but thats because they actually balanced the weapon for aiming.

Except MW:LL had some balance issues in it as well

[Pinselborste]

MrZakalwe, on 14 August 2013 - 05:34 AM, said:

Except MW:LL had some balance issues in it as well

nowhere as much as mwo.

and clans also wherent the broken **** they are in the TT game.

[Randalf Yorgen]

Rakshasa, on 14 August 2013 - 02:34 AM, said:

As MrZakalwe points out, none of the things he lists are problems - the problem is that there's too many of them.

This is the entire problem with the game, anyone can have what ever they want whenever they want it. I've played many Battletech games, and with the exception of "mechassault" all the videogames and I have to say that this is by far (10x10 to the power of 10) richest battletech universe I have ever played in. When I first started (TT Battletech (pencil, paper, character sheet, 6 sided dice, and if you were lucky a battlemech for fighting in) we would have to out bid other units/players to see who would end up hiring the drop ship to get them off planet and then have to pay jump fees, heven forbid your course took them into space battle or dangerous space (asteriods, grav wells etc) because then you were on the hook to pay for those repairs as well (or replacement costs if things went really wrong)

Rifles, Tanks, spies etc were the way to go back then, Battlemechs were the rarest of the rare and if you did get one you didn't tamper with the load out because making a mistake could cost you the battlemech or tens of millions of c-bill to repair.

In this mech only universe, and yes I get it, this is a "MechWarrior" title and everyone needs to be able to play a battlemech and play it their way, everyone can have everything for just a few thousand/ million c-bills which even today aren't that hard to grind out (with out using founders mech or premium time) I can pull 2-3 million c-bills in 2 or 3 days with good drops (90min - 2 hours) and that is the whole issue.

IF PGI had taken a different approach to the whole availablilty of advanced tech then things would be very different. For example, the tournaments could have had rewards like the following. 3rd place, an XL engine your choice of size and 10 DHS. 2nd place Full armor/ internal structure upgrades to FF and ES for the mechs that you own at the time of victory, and 1st place either the engine with HS or the armor upgrades + 2 gauss rifles. The catch is with the rareness of these systems repairing them would cost you more so you might only want to bring them out for special situations. All winners get a little C-bill and maybe a handfull of M-C. Make the tournaments a buy in (MC) and run them twice a month. The tech gets out there in a trickle, general balance, (if everything is crappy 300 year old battlemechs) then it's all in balance, PGI makes money from the tournament registration fee and everyone has something shinny to "shoot" for.

To bad PGI didn't listen when this was first suggested about a year ago, the game would be in a much better place today.

[MrZakalwe]

Pinselborste, on 14 August 2013 - 05:41 AM, said:

nowhere as much as mwo.

and clans also wherent the broken **** they are in the TT game.

I'm not so sure

Novacat with 4 CERPPCs if you recall?- it did amazing damage at any range with a projectile speed that broke the speed of sounds, didn't get nearly as hot as you'd think and had a crap load of coolent if it did.

One of the curses of customisation is that it's much harder to balance and we have a lot of it in MWO (and that is a good thing but more difficult for the devs) I also have far more fun on MWO lately than i did on MWLL (and I had more fun on MWLL than I did on any previous MW game ). Ghost heat and reliably getting a HUD really improved this game.

I'm constantly annoyed by how slow PGI are but they are finally starting to get there!

[Asmosis]

hm, OP's trollbait caught a big ugly one.

I love the wildly impractical hypothetical scenarios though. The game is unbalanced by the pinpoint alpha problem, but *some* people are really having trouble letting go of their one tap kill buttons.

Pinpoint alpha strikes need to be removed because the entire balance of the mech hit location build rests entirely on the premise that you can't just funnel everything into one location

we might as well just have two locations (like any FPS) torso and head and be done with it.