228 replies to this topic

[Blackadder]

The problem with your thoughts regarding ppc, is you ignore the major factors that make it better then other weapons, and attempt to cite heat as a drawback.you state heat as the major drawback as opposed to other weapons, but the reality is that heat is really a non issue in this game, even after all the changes to weapons, with the overheat penalty in place. you state that other weapons have there role, but the reality is that the PPC fills those roles well enough. It would be one thing if the LPL or ML or ballistics were superior to the PPC at there optimum ranges, but they are not, and until that option happens, other weapons will never really be quality alternatives to PPC being one of the primary weapons systems in the game.

In MWO its very easy to negate DPS style builds, while using burst damage builds which the ppc is a staple, with no real impact on how you play. DPS builds do not have the ability to negate PPC builds in the same fashion, because DPS builds require you to stay in the open for extended periods of time(3-6 seconds) to deliver your damage, thus allowing you to be targeted, and you lack the ability to sustain fire to make enemies avoid targeting you. with 12v12, DPS has become more viable, but many weapons systems still under perform.

[Trauglodyte]

PEEFSmash is right - ELO should be shown on this board.

[The6047]

I dont think they are the root of the problem. I believe the root is the HSR. With the lack of hits registering it is definately an all or nothing weapon. If you miss, wait for long cooldown. If you hit, but nothing happens (failed hit detection) then you wait again. It seems to be a gamble. If you want consistent damage I feel LL are the better option. At least with the lasers you can drag across a fast light and get "some" damage through with multiple chances to detect the hit through the duration.

To sum it up, PPC, Gauss, AC/20 are great for your large slow moving targets but very unreliable against the smaller and faster ones.

I personally believe that most of this weapon balance is asenine with the way hit detection is at the moment.

Overall, I like the PPC's, they fit my playstyle (Dragon Slayer - Guass + 2x ERPPC jump sniper). Of course everything could use some tweaking.

[Bhael Fire]

There's nothing wrong with PPCs.

I really wish people would stop throwing tantrums over them. The fact is, if you don't want to get hit by them, don't stand out in the open like a tard. Learn to use cover.

In fact, the only thing wrong with weapons right now is HSR and the fact that some weapons are still useless (flamers, streaks, and NARCs) or need a little love (AC/5, AC/10, and LB 10-X).

[Mcgral18]

Well, how about we balance them with heat. Hard heat cap between 30 and 50. Currently, 40 cap is the lowest you can get in MWO with 10 SHS. If we debuff the PPC heat to 10, ER 15 with the lower cap, things could start to balance out. Maybe a recycle time of 5, to nerf their brawling capabilities a little, but they are mid range weapons.

[Joseph Mallan]

MrZakalwe, on 14 August 2013 - 02:23 AM, said:

It's not a problem if you want PPCs to be so clearly superior to other weapons systems that using others is doing it wrong in nearly any situation.

PPCs ARE the IT Weapon of the energy family. They have been for 30 years. 2-3 of them are exactly what they are supposed to be. 5 or more you have a deadly platform. That IS balanced. Use 2 PPCs then tell me how OP PPCs are.

[Braggart]

OP be is living in a fantasy world where all mechs, weapons, and maps are balanced.

There is nothing of worth discussing here.

[Fyrerock]

It is true that heat is not an issue when the fight is at the distance, but it becomes very important once the fight gets under 400m, where every single fight ends up sooner or later. But one way to get around all the heat from ppc is to add a huge XL engine that allows a lot of extra true double heat sinks added, which increases your overall dps but makes you a sitting duck as well.

The only way to make people to use weapons systems other then ppc is to nerf the range game completely forcing everyone to engage at close range, at that point people will stop using ppc, and as it stands now many of us prefer the range game over sub 100m brawling.

[Voivode]

Take the PPC / ERPPC back to 10/15 heat respectively. It is and deserves to be a powerful ranged weapon...with very high heat generation being the chief disadvantage. I really don't know why they nerfed the heat. When the heat was 10/15 people generally ran two PPCs at a time because more than that was very hard to manage. Now they have a punishment system trying to force people to do what they were doing before they changed the heat in the first place.

[Sasha Volkova]

MrZakalwe, on 14 August 2013 - 05:09 AM, said:

I especially like the bit where you 'like'd your own post

Its a trick I learned from my friends, the vertebrates, from the class Aves!
;b

[Roland]

OP doesn't really understand the issues at play here.

[Wolfways]

Tbh i'm at a loss as to why people think the PPC is powerful.

I've used a K2 since CB and used to do reasonably well in it. It now has 2xERPPC, 2xMLL's and 2x MG's. The ERPPC's are easy to hit with (on distant targets at least), but generate a lot of heat. For close range fighting the long recycle time and heat makes it mostly useless.
The only reason i keep it is because i think it's a nice looking mech.

I had a Jagermech with 2xAC10's and2xMLs and it is vastly better for both long and short range because of the faster firing rate. It needs ammo yes, but also a lot less heat sinks.
The only reason i don't still have it is because i found 2xAC2's and 2xAC5's were even better.

So imo AC's are much better than ER/PPC's, and better than any other weapon tbh.


But i also believe that part of the problem is the players. I've played enough fps to know that the majority of players aren't team players. They don't want to play a role.
How many times have people asked for a 1-on-1 mode? How many say this mech is better than that mech?
Most players want all mechs to be equal so that they can boast about their own skill. It's human nature.
It's why in other games players complain about snipers, artillery, etc. Because they can't go against them face-to-face.

I also think that customization is part of the problem. Allow players to replace smaller weapons with big ones and they will. Weapon hardpoints should have had size limits (except omnimechs obviously).

Edited by Wolfways, 14 August 2013 - 10:53 AM.

[YueFei]

Wolfways, on 14 August 2013 - 10:52 AM, said:

Tbh i'm at a loss as to why people think the PPC is powerful.

I've used a K2 since CB and used to do reasonably well in it. It now has 2xERPPC, 2xMLL's and 2x MG's. The ERPPC's are easy to hit with (on distant targets at least), but generate a lot of heat. For close range fighting the long recycle time and heat makes it mostly useless.
The only reason i keep it is because i think it's a nice looking mech.

I had a Jagermech with 2xAC10's and2xMLs and it is vastly better for both long and short range because of the faster firing rate. It needs ammo yes, but also a lot less heat sinks.
The only reason i don't still have it is because i found 2xAC2's and 2xAC5's were even better.

So imo AC's are much better than ER/PPC's, and better than any other weapon tbh.


But i also believe that part of the problem is the players. I've played enough fps to know that the majority of players aren't team players. They don't want to play a role.
How many times have people asked for a 1-on-1 mode? How many say this mech is better than that mech?
Most players want all mechs to be equal so that they can boast about their own skill. It's human nature.
It's why in other games players complain about snipers, artillery, etc. Because they can't go against them face-to-face.

I also think that customization is part of the problem. Allow players to replace smaller weapons with big ones and they will. Weapon hardpoints should have had size limits (except omnimechs obviously).

The recycle time on PPCs is the same as many smaller weapons (like the medium laser). And when very accurate pilots use them, they can kill their targets before they start to overheat. Especially when you give players access to things like Cool Shots to flush heat out.

Heap Cap is too high. PPCs are the weapons most capable of taking advantage of the huge heat capacity.

I also have a Catapult K2. It is my best performing mech. I do not suddenly get more skilled when I use it. It is just the advantages of that chassis, with high-mounted guns, a large CT letting me run XL relatively safely, yet nicely protruding side torsos that also let me shield most of my CT when I want to, and the pin-point damage and relatively low heat of the PPCs. I find myself using Cool Shot on my Hunchback-4SP almost every other match. On my Catapult K2, I almost never need to use Cool Shot.

[ghos t in the shel l]

DICE ROLLS FOR THE WIN we are the ******* of the internet

Edited by RENZOKUKEN, 14 August 2013 - 12:14 PM.

[Lykaon]

RENZOKUKEN, on 14 August 2013 - 02:12 AM, said:

Reducing the amount of pinpoint damage is not a problem.

Those of you who are in denial, with the false assumption that PPC need fixed in any way other than making sure they are damaging 100% when hitting, you need to face reality.

Reality is, PPC is a weapon in Mech Warrior that does pinpoint damage, this is in no way a problem or something that needs fixed. I have no idea where you got this from, but you are seriously dillusional if you think there is a problem with PPC or other direct damage weapons such as Gauss.

The reality is that different weapons are used in different roles. Just because you have a limited understanding of these roles and methods of play that different mechs and weapons excel in, does not mean the weapon itself is the problem. The problem is you and others like you who simply do not have a full grasp on the game. I am only assuming, you are expecting to be able to run in the open with damage over time weapons such as AC2 or AC5 or maybe a mech equipped with mostly close range weapons, and you expect to have an equal engagement with a mech that is fulfilling its role using long range, direct fire weapons and using cover?

Just because you have a limited understanding of how to pilot a mech effectively and how to effectively build a mech for a role and then play to that role, that does not mean the game itself needs to adjust or adapt to your play style, or lack of play style. This simply means that you need to realize the game is not the issue, but you are the one who needs to adapt your play style and find a way to effectively use the weapons you want to use in a tactical situation. For example, damage over time weapons could be extremely effective on a mech with enough speed to flank around the enemy, thus catching the enemy in a crossfire situation and without cover, leaving them exposed. By playing smart, all weapons and roles can be effective, but you have to know what they are, sniping mechs that use PPC, Gauss and ER Large are simply doing their job well, now it's your turn to pilot your mech well, or admit that you lost fair and square and stop bringing your complaints to these forums and spamming the developer's twitter accounts. Just because you are not able to figure out how to use a weapon effectively does not mean that the game itself is unbalanced, just you do not know what you are talking about in the first place.

Please, offer me some sort of correction, because I know what I am talking about.

Here is a point you may have missed.

The problem is not as you said PPCs or any weapon system.You got that right.

The problem is the mechanics MWo uses for armor is lifted directly from the table top game with some exceptions.MWo uses 2X armor values in conjunction with 2.5X faster weapon refire rates (based on TT 10 sec turn) with (mostly) 1X table top damage values.

Already we see a problem,MWO weapon damage is higher in scale to table top values and table top values are where MWo derived defencive values for armor as well as offencive values for weapons.

Next we have the interaction of a table top game mechanic (armor values for specific locations) within a real time shooter game that lacks pretty much all of the supporting mechanics used in the table top game to prevent exploitation of the armor mechanic.

Simply put,MWo uses a table top armor mechanic with a lack of sufficent mitigating mechanics to prevent exploitation of that mechanic that the source (table top) included.

The armor value system is contending with factors it was never designed to encounter.

The armor mechanic was designed to function in a game with random hit chances and random hit locations.

It was never designed to function in a game with pinpoint accuracy and group fire.

[Wolfways]

YueFei, on 14 August 2013 - 11:07 AM, said:

The recycle time on PPCs is the same as many smaller weapons (like the medium laser). And when very accurate pilots use them, they can kill their targets before they start to overheat. Especially when you give players access to things like Cool Shots to flush heat out.

Heap Cap is too high. PPCs are the weapons most capable of taking advantage of the huge heat capacity.

I also have a Catapult K2. It is my best performing mech. I do not suddenly get more skilled when I use it. It is just the advantages of that chassis, with high-mounted guns, a large CT letting me run XL relatively safely, yet nicely protruding side torsos that also let me shield most of my CT when I want to, and the pin-point damage and relatively low heat of the PPCs. I find myself using Cool Shot on my Hunchback-4SP almost every other match. On my Catapult K2, I almost never need to use Cool Shot.

PPC recycle time is 4seconds, ML recycle time is 3seconds.

Wish i could kill mechs in 3 shots (dual ERPPC's), except for headshots of course. I don't use the consumables though.

[Braggart]

Wolfways, on 14 August 2013 - 12:39 PM, said:

PPC recycle time is 4seconds, ML recycle time is 3seconds.

Wish i could kill mechs in 3 shots (dual ERPPC's), except for headshots of course. I don't use the consumables though.

................................................. mediums have a 1 second duration followed by a 3 second cool down. for a total of 4 seconds. PPCs have a 0 second duration followed by a 4 second cool down.

large lasers have a 1 second duration, and a 3.25 cool down.

[NineTails]

Dragonkindred, on 14 August 2013 - 02:24 AM, said:

The problem is not with PPCs (though many people think it is), the problem is with non-cannon boating.

By extension, you're saying that Gauss x2 PPC builds aren't a problem? Because they are exactly the problem. And there's very little boat-y about Gauss PPC PPC.

[Wolfways]

Braggart, on 14 August 2013 - 12:44 PM, said:

................................................. mediums have a 1 second duration followed by a 3 second cool down. for a total of 4 seconds. PPCs have a 0 second duration followed by a 4 second cool down.

large lasers have a 1 second duration, and a 3.25 cool down.

Oh yeah lol. Never noticed that.
Hell, lasers are even worse than ballistics than i thought

[Joseph Mallan]

NineTails, on 14 August 2013 - 12:49 PM, said:

By extension, you're saying that Gauss x2 PPC builds aren't a problem? Because they are exactly the problem. And there's very little boat-y about Gauss PPC PPC.

There is nothing wrong with 2 PPC and a Gauss. Except it is effective at its mission. Putting enemy Mechs down. 35 points is not a lot of damage.