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Ppc Are Not A Problem


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#81 redlance

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 03:07 PM

if only ppc Gauss weren't so easy to combine at range. then that would increase the skill cap for sniping. and make the Gauss rifle the sniper rifle of choice, which would be good since it requires ammo.

#82 KharnZor

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 03:09 PM

View PostBraggart, on 14 August 2013 - 01:38 PM, said:


oh. Well the interesting thing about this game is that other than missiles. You have to have line of sight. If I can see you, you can see me.

Your idea of dont get shot is basically saying you arent allowed to shoot back.
That's not what i'm saying at all. If you don't run out like a lemming or follow the blob like a sheep and actually look at the battlefield and take advantage of it to minimize your exposure to incoming fire then its really not that hard to get where you want to go.

View PostCoralld, on 14 August 2013 - 01:54 PM, said:


So every one should just sit in an corner and hide? If you get any more bright ideas like this little gem, do us all a favor and keep it to your self for we lowly individuals are not worthy of your brand of "genius."

Sure thing scrub.

#83 eblackthorn

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 03:12 PM

I have kept this opinion to myself but seeing as how this argument isn't going away im just going to put this here.

At this time when people say 'weapon balance' for the most part they mean PPC balance. We all know why the PPC is a great weapon, the real question is how do we limit it's potential. I have heard a lot of potential solutions, some have merit others not so much. I think the answer is simple and obvious and will cause much QQ. Make a PPC weapon hardpoint seperate from energy weapons. it will be easy to limit the amount of PPC's to one or two (or 0) and allow 3 or more where applicable (i.e. the awesome). I think it would be relatively simple to implement and would force a huge change in the Meta. Does it limit customization? Yes of course, but it would also encourage more diversity.

#84 Lyoto Machida

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 03:16 PM

View Posteblackthorn, on 14 August 2013 - 03:12 PM, said:

I have kept this opinion to myself but seeing as how this argument isn't going away im just going to put this here.

At this time when people say 'weapon balance' for the most part they mean PPC balance. We all know why the PPC is a great weapon, the real question is how do we limit it's potential. I have heard a lot of potential solutions, some have merit others not so much. I think the answer is simple and obvious and will cause much QQ. Make a PPC weapon hardpoint seperate from energy weapons. it will be easy to limit the amount of PPC's to one or two (or 0) and allow 3 or more where applicable (i.e. the awesome). I think it would be relatively simple to implement and would force a huge change in the Meta. Does it limit customization? Yes of course, but it would also encourage more diversity.


Or just raise the heat back to where it was instead of trying to force a limit to customization. People should be still allowed to run 6 PPC Stalkers but at their own risk.

#85 MisterFiveSeven

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 03:29 PM

Or just raise the recycle time.

If a brawler can actually do more damage to you than you can to him with ppc's at <200m then people will, you know...

Brawl more?

#86 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 03:32 PM

View PostCoralld, on 14 August 2013 - 02:16 PM, said:

I mean this in the kindest of ways, present a solution, an idea, anything, that doesn't suck.

I have no problem in being killed, but when its by the same exact loud that 90% of people are running that allows you to do everything from snipe to brawl over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over again. That tends to be a sign that there is a problem.

Stop.With all due respect Stop. Think about what you are asking. You don't want to face a good build because... It's popular & effective?

Barber's Marauders II

Quote

38 of the unit's 48 mechs are Marauder IIs. The remainder are Marauders. All are equipped with advanced technology and some are armed with Clan weapons.
48 Mechs with 2 PPCs and AC10 or LB-X10 or Gauss...

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 14 August 2013 - 03:33 PM.


#87 ghos t in the shel l

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 03:52 PM

View PostLykaon, on 14 August 2013 - 12:19 PM, said:


Here is the point you may have missed,

Blah blah blah blah tabletop blah, blah blah blah bla blah. Blah bla blah tabletop blah, random hit chances and random hit locations.

It was never designed to function in a game with pinpoint accuracy and group fire.


Those "random" hit chances in the tabletop game are based on Pilot attributes, such as piloting skill and gunnery skill. There is a fundamental difference between the tabletop game the game we know as MechWarrior: Online. One of those differences is one is a video game where the game is designed for the pilot to aim at the target. To suggest that you would reduce someone's ability to aim a weapon is rediculous, and I cannot understand why someone would want to reduce someone's ability to fire weapons accurately. Perhaps, the real issue is you and others like you who have posted in this thread, simply need to learn how to aim, if you are not the greatest pilot that does not mean you give up. It does not mean there is a problem with the game, the problem is YOU and others like you let me make that clear. You are the problem with your ignorance and inability to understand YES there are differences between tabletop and MWO and this game does not need randomizations to aiming, that is rediculous. That is a form of dumbing the game down for players who simply do not have the gunnery skill, that is something that should be worked at to improve for the individual pilots and there are many clans who have very formal training sessions that maybe you should look into if you are having the problem needing a handicap modifier placed into the game to dumb down and reduce pilot's natural ability to aim? Are you insane or just stupid? perhaps a little of both

View PostBraggart, on 14 August 2013 - 12:44 PM, said:


................................................. mediums have a 1 second duration followed by a 3 second cool down. for a total of 4 seconds. PPCs have a 0 second duration followed by a 4 second cool down.

large lasers have a 1 second duration, and a 3.25 cool down.


Instead of just stating random weapon stats, how about actually making a point about something? There are major heat differences and slots they take up that balance it out.

#88 Steel Claws

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 03:53 PM

All this PPC rage. I have talked to the voices in my head and they think these people are crazy and will never be happy.

All this talk of PGI creating the PPC meta is actually incorrect you know. THE PPC META IS ACTUALLY CANNON. Yes you read it here first. I recently went through all of the Heavy mechs developed in the Innersphere and you know what I found. Roughly half of them had at least one varient that mounted PPCs. Several even mounted - Oh god forbid - Two. I even found two mechs at 60 - 65 tons that mounted (gasp) dual Guass rifles. These are just the Heavies and I didn't count clan mechs. When you start looking at assault mechs you will find that almost 75% had a varient with a PPC on them. Many had multiple and some like the Annihilator ANH1E had 4 of them.

So what did we learn from this - PPCs are a widely used weapon in the battletech cannon.

#89 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 03:56 PM

View PostMisterFiveSeven, on 14 August 2013 - 03:29 PM, said:

Or just raise the recycle time.

If a brawler can actually do more damage to you than you can to him with ppc's at <200m then people will, you know...

Brawl more?

But Warhammers and Marauders were Brawler Mechs on TT.

#90 ghos t in the shel l

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 03:57 PM

View PostNineTails, on 14 August 2013 - 12:49 PM, said:


By extension, you're saying that Gauss x2 PPC builds aren't a problem? Because they are exactly the problem. And there's very little boat-y about Gauss PPC PPC.


Explain to me exactly, what is the problem with Gauss and PPC? You are saying it is a problem, but explain it please. In what way is it a problem? It is a simple build that can be taken on many different mechs and is by no means the best build in the game or something that would be considered unbalanced. Actually, it is underpowered because of the hit registration bug. So, you are calling a weapon loadout that is underpowered somehow a problem? What is the problem, please because you are just making random statements without any reasons as to why they are a problem.

#91 MisterFiveSeven

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 03:57 PM

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 14 August 2013 - 03:56 PM, said:

But Warhammers and Marauders were Brawler Mechs on TT.


But currently, the PPC is the best weapon at ALL ranges.

Until that changes, the meta won't.

Edit :: meaning there need to be niche weapons for all ranges, aka not just ppc nerfs in a vacuum.

All ac recycle down. SRM grouping tighter. LRMs are tough because balanced for competition means pug hell.

But you get the idea.

Edited by MisterFiveSeven, 14 August 2013 - 03:59 PM.


#92 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 04:00 PM

View PostSteel Claws, on 14 August 2013 - 03:53 PM, said:

All this PPC rage. I have talked to the voices in my head and they think these people are crazy and will never be happy.

All this talk of PGI creating the PPC meta is actually incorrect you know. THE PPC META IS ACTUALLY CANNON. Yes you read it here first. I recently went through all of the Heavy mechs developed in the Innersphere and you know what I found. Roughly half of them had at least one varient that mounted PPCs. Several even mounted - Oh god forbid - Two. I even found two mechs at 60 - 65 tons that mounted (gasp) dual Guass rifles. These are just the Heavies and I didn't count clan mechs. When you start looking at assault mechs you will find that almost 75% had a varient with a PPC on them. Many had multiple and some like the Annihilator ANH1E had 4 of them.

So what did we learn from this - PPCs are a widely used weapon in the battletech cannon.
So lots of Particle Projection Cannon is actually Canon in Universe... Who'd have thought!?! :(

View PostMisterFiveSeven, on 14 August 2013 - 03:57 PM, said:


But currently, the PPC is the best weapon at ALL ranges.

Until that changes, the meta won't.

The PPC is the best at all ranges except within 90M as they are in the universe. They are the pinnacle energy weapon after all. Just as the Gauss rifle is. An we are trying to change the natural order of things why?

#93 ghos t in the shel l

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 04:07 PM

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 14 August 2013 - 01:00 PM, said:

There is nothing wrong with 2 PPC and a Gauss. Except it is effective at its mission. Putting enemy Mechs down. 35 points is not a lot of damage.


This says it best, NineTails is just a dillusional noob who trolls these forums, but I do agree that there is a problem, just not the problem that you're thinking of.

The problem is well known and that is hit registration with PPC and sometimes Gauss, and these weapons are only 50% of the time for me doing any damage when hitting, 90% of the time with the crosshair turning red. This is the only problem and it is a serious balance issue, but this is reducing the effectiveness of these weapons for those who experience this very common hit registration issue.

View PostMisterFiveSeven, on 14 August 2013 - 03:57 PM, said:


But currently, the PPC is the best weapon at ALL ranges.

Until that changes, the meta won't.

Edit :: meaning there need to be niche weapons for all ranges, aka not just ppc nerfs in a vacuum.

All ac recycle down. SRM grouping tighter. LRMs are tough because balanced for competition means pug hell.

But you get the idea.


PPC are only good if you play smart and use cover. If you are not using cover, many other weapons would be more effective. At point blank, once again you would be much better off with a close range weapon. PPC are only good for the role they are good in, and that is not every role despite what people are saying on here.

View PostNineTails, on 14 August 2013 - 12:49 PM, said:


...you're saying that Gauss x2 PPC builds aren't a problem?


Yes

#94 Geminus

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 04:10 PM

View PostRENZOKUKEN, on 14 August 2013 - 04:07 PM, said:


This says it best, NineTails is just a dillusional noob who trolls these forums, but I do agree that there is a problem, just not the problem that you're thinking of.

The problem is well known and that is hit registration with PPC and sometimes Gauss, and these weapons are only 50% of the time for me doing any damage when hitting, 90% of the time with the crosshair turning red. This is the only problem and it is a serious balance issue, but this is reducing the effectiveness of these weapons for those who experience this very common hit registration issue.



PPC are only good if you play smart and use cover. If you are not using cover, many other weapons would be more effective. At point blank, once again you would be much better off with a close range weapon. PPC are only good for the role they are good in, and that is not every role despite what people are saying on here.



Yes

PPC are not the the end all be all weapon. To say that they are superior at all ranges and engagent types is nuts. Due to long recycle times and high heat they are a horrible close in weapon. Medium lasers and pulse lasers will chew up a mech that is using PPCs for a close in brawl.

#95 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 04:12 PM

View PostRENZOKUKEN, on 14 August 2013 - 04:04 PM, said:


This says it best, NineTails is just a dillusional noob who trolls these forums, but I do agree that there is a problem, just not the problem that you're thinking of.

The problem is well known and that is hit registration with PPC and sometimes Gauss, and these weapons are only 50% of the time for me doing any damage when hitting, 90% of the time with the crosshair turning red. This is the only problem and it is a serious balance issue, but this is reducing the effectiveness of these weapons for those who experience this very common hit registration issue.

PPC are only good if you play smart and use cover. If you are not using cover, many other weapons would be more effective. At point blank, once again you would be much better off with a close range weapon. PPC are only good for the role they are good in, and that is not every role despite what people are saying on here.

Holy subject chance Batman!

Hit Reg is an issue for some/many/most. But isn't that a different discussion? :D

The role of a PPC is heavy hitting energy weapon with good range. The role of ERPPC is heavy hitting Energy weapon with Better range. It is supposed to be respected and feared. We keep trying to nerf it it will be back to being a laughing stock. :(

2 PPCs is not OP A Gauss Rifle is not OP the combination is a perfect hammer. :unsure:

#96 Khobai

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 04:15 PM

2 ERPPCs isnt OP but 2 ERPPCs and Gauss definitely is. 35 pinpoint damage is still way more than armor can currently handle. Which is why PGI is "desyncing" the Gauss.

#97 MisterFiveSeven

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 04:17 PM

View PostRENZOKUKEN, on 14 August 2013 - 04:07 PM, said:

PPC are only good if you play smart and use cover. If you are not using cover, many other weapons would be more effective. At point blank, once again you would be much better off with a close range weapon. PPC are only good for the role they are good in, and that is not every role despite what people are saying on here.


This is wrong.

#98 Geminus

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 04:18 PM

I fail to see how anyone can say that gauss and ppc combo is "a probelm".
Thats not a problem, thats a balanced build.
Say that it is branded a problem. say that the devs listen and make a change that you cant use them together.
Then people will use an AC10 and 2 large lasers. than that will be a problem.
Then people will use 2 AC5 and 4 medium lasers. Poblem too.
Do you want the Devs to just make 8 or so mechs that cant be changed and we can all pilot those?

The problem is not weapons, the probelm is people not learning to use them properly.

I don't understand this line of thinking that the weapons are "evil".

Lets approach the argument this way. Can someone who is on the PPC and gauss are evil team please post a build for a mech that they feel is acceptable. Im serious. Lets post a build that you think is "safe" and then we can analize and discuss this.
How many PPCs are bad? 1? 2?
what weapons are "ok" to be paired up?

Edited by Geminus, 14 August 2013 - 04:24 PM.


#99 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 04:22 PM

View PostKhobai, on 14 August 2013 - 04:15 PM, said:

2 ERPPCs isnt OP but 2 ERPPCs and Gauss definitely is. 35 pinpoint damage is still way more than armor can currently handle. Which is why PGI is "desyncing" the Gauss.

it is way more than Mechs >45 ton can handle. As should be since the are Lightly armored.

#100 Geminus

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 04:35 PM

I can't wait to see what happens when a Nova "black hawk" makes it way onto the scene. Primary configuration 12 ER Medium lasers. The forums will burn to the gorund.
The mwo battle cry will become "nerf the medium lasers!"
People will be begging for the PPCs and the Gauss to be "un-nerfed" so that they can stand a chance of kiling it at range before it gets to them.

View PostMisterFiveSeven, on 14 August 2013 - 04:17 PM, said:


This is wrong.

How so?
Slow cycle time and high heat. PPCs will "work" at close range but are meant for distance. A PPC mech at medium to close range against a jager or phract with 4 AC5s or against a hunchback with 8 medium lasers is going to get shreaded.
Please, elaborate beyong, this is wrong.





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