228 replies to this topic

[Prezimonto]

Compare a slot and weight savings, in practical terms in-game, between 1 ERPPC and 1AC10 or 1 UAC5. The PPC certainly needs some heat sinks to stay effective, but due to high heat caps and the massive availability of Double Heat Sinks the ERPPC is easily the lower slot, lower tonnage choice for competitive 10 damage hits on all but the largest/slowest of mechs that have no way to disengage easily from a fight for a short cool down... which means most mechs.

In fact it's easier to fit and run 2 regular PPC's than one AC10 on many mechs. And you get double the pin point damage.

[Geminus]

Prezimonto, on 14 August 2013 - 04:49 PM, said:

Compare a slot and weight savings, in practical terms in-game, between 1 ERPPC and 1AC10 or 1 UAC5. The PPC certainly needs some heat sinks to stay effective, but due to high heat caps and the massive availability of Double Heat Sinks the ERPPC is easily the lower slot, lower tonnage choice for competitive 10 damage hits on all but the largest/slowest of mechs that have no way to disengage easily from a fight for a short cool down... which means most mechs.

In fact it's easier to fit and run 2 regular PPC's than one AC10 on many mechs. And you get double the pin point damage.

How is it easier to fit PPC over AC10? I can take a Jager or a Phract and run x2 AC10 just fine. Or x2 gauss.If you want to run a dual ballistic then you take a mech with the hardpoints for the dual balistic.
And where you can fit the PPC and the heat sinks in the same space it takes to fit AC10 and ammo, the AC10 will still out damage the PPC at medium and close range.
It has a faster reload time and less heat so it can sustain the volume of fire longer.
An ERPPC has a DPS of 2.5 an AC 10 has a DPS of 4. An ERPPC has a HPS of 2.75, an AC10 has a HPS of 1.2 They are both pinpoint.
I run 3 jagers in my mech bay. a 3d witch has its primary of 2 ERPPC equipped, it runs hot and is best at range. Its backup weapons are meant for defense at close range.
a 4x which has a primary weapons system of 2 AC10, its back up weapons are also close range. it runs cool and is a beast at close range.
a Ilya with a primary of 2 gauss, back up are for close range, runs cool and is best at range.

the ilya and 3d are not good close in, they will be bested every time by the 4x.

anytime I am in any of my builds that is sporting Gauss, PPC or ER Larges Ihave to be on the look out for the medium mechs with all the medium lasers, or jagers or phracts with AC5s or 10s. Those are the rock to my scissors.

Edited by Geminus, 14 August 2013 - 05:03 PM.

[MisterFiveSeven]

Geminus, on 14 August 2013 - 04:35 PM, said:

I can't wait to see what happens when a Nova "black hawk" makes it way onto the scene. Primary configuration 12 ER Medium lasers. The forums will burn to the gorund.
The mwo battle cry will become "nerf the medium lasers!"
People will be begging for the PPCs and the Gauss to be "un-nerfed" so that they can stand a chance of kiling it at range before it gets to them.


How so?
Slow cycle time and high heat. PPCs will "work" at close range but are meant for distance. A PPC mech at medium to close range against a jager or phract with 4 AC5s or against a hunchback with 8 medium lasers is going to get shreaded.
Please, elaborate beyong, this is wrong.

Direct fire weapons put damage exactly where you aim.

No tactic changes that direct fire weapons put their damage exactly where you aim.

If it doesn't put more damage exactly where you want, it is sub par.

AC20 has limited range. Both AC20 and gauss need ballistic hardpoints.

Energy hardpoints are plentiful. PPC's have the fastest projectile speed in the game.

It really is that simple.

Edit :: There is an opportunity cost associated with mounting any weapon (tonnage, crits, hardpoint limits, and duration of engagement). The PPC is effective at all ranges, and the best at med and long ranges. This means that it beats out weapons that are specifically better at short ranges, like mass medium lasers, because your CT might be gone before you get within 300m.

Edit2 :: Clan ER med las will break the game. And, ironically, change the meta

Edited by MisterFiveSeven, 14 August 2013 - 05:24 PM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Geminus, on 14 August 2013 - 04:35 PM, said:

I can't wait to see what happens when a Nova "black hawk" makes it way onto the scene. Primary configuration 12 ER Medium lasers. The forums will burn to the gorund.
The mwo battle cry will become "nerf the medium lasers!"
People will be begging for the PPCs and the Gauss to be "un-nerfed" so that they can stand a chance of kiling it at range before it gets to them.

You good sir, NAILED IT!!!

Firing 6 Medium lasers at 400+Meters for 42 points of Pin Point accurate damage... half a second later doing it again! Oh the whine!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 14 August 2013 - 06:17 PM.

[Lootee]

Meh. Give me 12 heavy medium lasers any day.

If you're going for the 1 shot overheat and die strategy at least make it count. 120 pt alpha FTW.

[Joseph Mallan]

PanchoTortilla, on 14 August 2013 - 06:10 PM, said:

Meh. Give me 12 heavy medium lasers any day.

If you're going for the 1 shot overheat and die strategy at least make it count. 120 pt alpha FTW.

I wonder how they are going to handle the +1 to hit penalty. Heavy lasers were less accurate you know.

[Khobai]

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Compare a slot and weight savings, in practical terms in-game, between 1 ERPPC and 1AC10 or 1 UAC5. The PPC certainly needs some heat sinks to stay effective, but due to high heat caps and the massive availability of Double Heat Sinks the ERPPC is easily the lower slot, lower tonnage choice for competitive 10 damage hits on all but the largest/slowest of mechs that have no way to disengage easily from a fight for a short cool down... which means most mechs.

Not only that but compare two ERPPCs to one AC/20.

Its 14 tons and 6 crits for the two ERPPCs
Its 18 tons and 14 crits for the AC/20 and four tons of ammo

The ERPPCs do the same damage, have over twice the projectile speed, three times the range, dont use ammo, and can even disrupt ECM. And even a lowly Cicada can run two ERPPCs without overheating badly so heat is a non-issue.

That's why the boating nerf to dual AC/20 was completely uncalled for because it was the only reason the AC/20 was even worth considering. PGI's boating penalties have accomplished absolutely nothing other than to ensure that the ERPPC is the best weapon in the game bar none. Way to go PGI.

Quote

I wonder how they are going to handle the +1 to hit penalty. Heavy lasers were less accurate you know

Pulse Lasers get -2 and they handled that with shorter beam duration. So my guess is Heavy Lasers will have a longer beam duration. But Heavy Lasers are entirely pointless compared to clan ERPPCs. Honestly its a non-issue because no one in their right mind would use them.

Edited by Khobai, 14 August 2013 - 06:26 PM.

[FupDup]

Joseph Mallan, on 14 August 2013 - 06:17 PM, said:

I wonder how they are going to handle the +1 to hit penalty. Heavy lasers were less accurate you know.

That's what Improved Heavy Lasers are for (tradeoff is explodability).

[Geminus]

MisterFiveSeven, on 14 August 2013 - 05:02 PM, said:

Direct fire weapons put damage exactly where you aim.

No tactic changes that direct fire weapons put their damage exactly where you aim.

If it doesn't put more damage exactly where you want, it is sub par.

AC20 has limited range. Both AC20 and gauss need ballistic hardpoints.

Energy hardpoints are plentiful. PPC's have the fastest projectile speed in the game.

It really is that simple.

Edit :: There is an opportunity cost associated with mounting any weapon (tonnage, crits, hardpoint limits, and duration of engagement). The PPC is effective at all ranges, and the best at med and long ranges. This means that it beats out weapons that are specifically better at short ranges, like mass medium lasers, because your CT might be gone before you get within 300m.

Edit2 :: Clan ER med las will break the game. And, ironically, change the meta

the speed of the projetile dosnt change the fact that the ACs can fire more rapidly then the PPC and generate less heat.
An AC10 fires 4 times in 10 seconds, a PPC fires 2.5 times in 10 seconds. Thats 40 points of damage for the AC10 and 30 for the PPC. Now factor in that the PPC will have to break in fire for heat well before the AC will. See above post about dps, ac10 is higher dps and lower hps.
The ac10 out damges the PPC at medium to close range, the speed of the projectile means nothing. I fail to see how you feel that the projetile speed in a medium to close range fight wins your argument.
When one projectile is traveling at 2000 feet per second and the other at 1900 feet per second the time differance between hits is in milliseconds. Its not like one is being shot from a cannon and the other is being sent to hit you via fed ex.

And energy hardpoints are more prevalent? If you want to shoot balistics, buy a mech with balistic hardpoints. Thats like saying you are loosing races to trucks when all you have to do is buy a corvette, but there are more trucks on the road. If AC10s are more DPS, less HPS than PPC, that right there is all the math you need to show that medium to close range that AC10 is the better weapon, if energy are more prevalant, and you take AC10s, then be happy, caus you now outdamage most the other mechs out their in your assesment.

Edited by Geminus, 14 August 2013 - 06:31 PM.

[Joseph Mallan]

FupDup, on 14 August 2013 - 06:19 PM, said:

That's what Improved Heavy Lasers are for (tradeoff is explodability).

I didn't test Those!

[Lootee]

Joseph Mallan, on 14 August 2013 - 06:17 PM, said:

I wonder how they are going to handle the +1 to hit penalty. Heavy lasers were less accurate you know.

If it were up to me I'd just go with what the official CBT Tech Manual says: heavy lasers have a pre-firing charge up delay.

But that idea is too simple and too canon. PGI will come up with some bizarre system where lasers in your arms shoot behind you, head lasers shoot sideways, and torso lasers fire curved beams every other Thursday.

[Joseph Mallan]

Khobai, on 14 August 2013 - 06:18 PM, said:

Pulse Lasers get -2 and they handled that with shorter beam duration. So my guess is Heavy Lasers will have a longer beam duration. But Heavy Lasers are entirely pointless compared to clan ERPPCs. Honestly its a non-issue because no one in their right mind would use them.

hey haven't handled Pulse lasers right in my eyes, But thats fine so far. I was never a fan of IS Pulse Weapons. ow would thet make Heavy lasers harder to target?

Heavy Large lasers I agree, heavy Mediums... May be a different kettle of fish.

[MisterFiveSeven]

Geminus, on 14 August 2013 - 06:20 PM, said:

the speed of the projetile dosnt change the fact that the ACs can fire more rapidly then the PPC and generate less heat.
An AC10 fires 4 times in 10 seconds, a PPC fires 2.5 times in 10 seconds. Thats 40 points of damage for the AC10 and 30 for the PPC. Now factor in that the PPC will have to break in fire for heat well befoe the AC will.
The ac10 out damges the PPC at medium to close range, the speed of the projectile means nothing. I fail to see how you feel that the projetile speed in a medium to close range fight wins your argument.
When one projectile is traveling at 2000 feet per second and the other at 1900 feet per second the time differance between hits is in milliseconds. Its not like one is being shot from a cannon and the other is being sent to hit you via fed ex.

Do any competitive builds use ac10's?

[Khobai]

Either way heavy lasers dont appear until 3059. So they wont be in the game for a while.

Quote

Do any competitive builds use ac10's?

My Daishi-B will have five Clan UAC/10s if PGI doesnt fix their ****. That is gonna be ridiculously scary.

And my Daishi Prime will have 2 CERPPCs, 2 CERLLs, and 2 CGAUSS.

So yeah thats a nice little preview of whats coming

Edited by Khobai, 14 August 2013 - 06:38 PM.

[Joseph Mallan]

MisterFiveSeven, on 14 August 2013 - 06:27 PM, said:

Do any competitive builds use ac10's?

DocBach took 6th place using a near stock Centurion(double sinks and a SRM) in the 1st Tournament. 6th out of around 3,000. Competitive enough?

[Burakumin1979]

MisterFiveSeven, on 14 August 2013 - 06:27 PM, said:

Do any competitive builds use ac10's?

I lolled

[Geminus]

MisterFiveSeven, on 14 August 2013 - 06:27 PM, said:

Do any competitive builds use ac10's?

yes. I see many. I own several. I have been killed by them and I have killed with them.

[Khobai]

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DocBach took 6th place using a near stock Centurion(double sinks and a SRM) in the 1st Tournament. 6th out of around 3,000. Competitive enough?

Yeah and I won 1st place Assault in the first tournament in an dual LB10X D-DC. Does that mean LB10Xs are competitive?

[Lootee]

Khobai, on 14 August 2013 - 06:30 PM, said:

Either way heavy lasers dont appear until 3059. So they wont be in the game for a while.



My Daishi-B will have five Clan UAC/10s if PGI doesnt fix their ****. That is gonna be ridiculously scary.

And my Daishi Prime will have 2 CERPPCs, 2 CERLLs, and 2 CGAUSS.

My Kraken is going to have 4 gauss rifles and 8 machineguns. Lolwut heat scaling ?

[Joseph Mallan]

PanchoTortilla, on 14 August 2013 - 06:38 PM, said:

My Kraken is going to have 4 gauss rifles and 8 machineguns. Lolwut heat scaling ?

8 LRM15s!!!! Chain firing!