228 replies to this topic

[ghos t in the shel l]

Reducing the amount of pinpoint damage is not a problem.

Those of you who are in denial, with the false assumption that PPC need fixed in any way other than making sure they are damaging 100% when hitting, you need to face reality.

Reality is, PPC is a weapon in Mech Warrior that does pinpoint damage, this is in no way a problem or something that needs fixed. I have no idea where you got this from, but you are seriously dillusional if you think there is a problem with PPC or other direct damage weapons such as Gauss.

The reality is that different weapons are used in different roles. Just because you have a limited understanding of these roles and methods of play that different mechs and weapons excel in, does not mean the weapon itself is the problem. The problem is you and others like you who simply do not have a full grasp on the game. I am only assuming, you are expecting to be able to run in the open with damage over time weapons such as AC2 or AC5 or maybe a mech equipped with mostly close range weapons, and you expect to have an equal engagement with a mech that is fulfilling its role using long range, direct fire weapons and using cover?

Just because you have a limited understanding of how to pilot a mech effectively and how to effectively build a mech for a role and then play to that role, that does not mean the game itself needs to adjust or adapt to your play style, or lack of play style. This simply means that you need to realize the game is not the issue, but you are the one who needs to adapt your play style and find a way to effectively use the weapons you want to use in a tactical situation. For example, damage over time weapons could be extremely effective on a mech with enough speed to flank around the enemy, thus catching the enemy in a crossfire situation and without cover, leaving them exposed. By playing smart, all weapons and roles can be effective, but you have to know what they are, sniping mechs that use PPC, Gauss and ER Large are simply doing their job well, now it's your turn to pilot your mech well, or admit that you lost fair and square and stop bringing your complaints to these forums and spamming the developer's twitter accounts. Just because you are not able to figure out how to use a weapon effectively does not mean that the game itself is unbalanced, just you do not know what you are talking about in the first place.

Please, offer me some sort of correction, because I know what I am talking about.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

RENZOKUKEN, on 14 August 2013 - 02:12 AM, said:

Reducing the amount of pinpoint damage is not a problem.

Those of you who are in denial, with the false assumption that PPC need fixed in any way other than making sure they are damaging 100% when hitting, you need to face reality.

Reality is, PPC is a weapon in Mech Warrior that does pinpoint damage, this is in no way a problem or something that needs fixed. I have no idea where you got this from, but you are seriously dillusional if you think there is a problem with PPC or other direct damage weapons such as Gauss.

The reality is that different weapons are used in different roles. Just because you have a limited understanding of these roles and methods of play that different mechs and weapons excel in, does not mean the weapon itself is the problem. The problem is you and others like you who simply do not have a full grasp on the game. I am only assuming, you are expecting to be able to run in the open with damage over time weapons such as AC2 or AC5 or maybe a mech equipped with mostly close range weapons, and you expect to have an equal engagement with a mech that is fulfilling its role using long range, direct fire weapons and using cover?

Just because you have a limited understanding of how to pilot a mech effectively and how to effectively build a mech for a role and then play to that role, that does not mean the game itself needs to adjust or adapt to your play style, or lack of play style. This simply means that you need to realize the game is not the issue, but you are the one who needs to adapt your play style and find a way to effectively use the weapons you want to use in a tactical situation. For example, damage over time weapons could be extremely effective on a mech with enough speed to flank around the enemy, thus catching the enemy in a crossfire situation and without cover, leaving them exposed. By playing smart, all weapons and roles can be effective, but you have to know what they are, sniping mechs that use PPC, Gauss and ER Large are simply doing their job well, now it's your turn to pilot your mech well, or admit that you lost fair and square and stop bringing your complaints to these forums and spamming the developer's twitter accounts. Just because you are not able to figure out how to use a weapon effectively does not mean that the game itself is unbalanced, just you do not know what you are talking about in the first place.

Please, offer me some sort of correction, because I know what I am talking about.

I hereby like this post for the forum nerd inducing rage about TT this and that it will thus create.

Edited by DV McKenna, 14 August 2013 - 02:16 AM.

[MrZakalwe]

I'm a big PPC user and they currently do too much, too well.
1) Excellent pinpoint damage.
2) Ammoless.
3) Accurate at long range even against moving targets.
4) Currently seem to be bugged so they do high damage at close range.
5) Do not require you to stare at people or stay out of cover long.
6) Disrupt ECM.
7) Do not weigh much.
8) Only produce slightly more heat than several inferior laser alternatives.

If they slowed down projectile speeds to make them less lethal against fast targets and sorted out the minimum range damage drop off there wouldn't be an issue with PPCs.

[ghos t in the shel l]

None of the things that you listed are problems. And no, there is not an issue with PPCs, besides the damage issue since state rewind. The weapons does what it was designed to do, tell me, where is the problem?

[MrZakalwe]

RENZOKUKEN, on 14 August 2013 - 02:22 AM, said:

None of the things that you listed are problems. And no, there is not an issue with PPCs, besides the damage issue since state rewind. The weapons does what it was designed to do, tell me, where is the problem?

It's not a problem if you want PPCs to be so clearly superior to other weapons systems that using others is doing it wrong in nearly any situation.

[Levon K]

I don't think you understand what the actual concern is. I'm pretty sure the concern was pinpoint convergence, not pinpoint damage.

There's nothing wrong with PPCs, however if you fire 4 of them at a target then the problem is when all 4 hit the exact same location. Traditionally a pilot wasn't able to do this consistently without some sort of targeting computer.

[Dragonkindred]

The problem is not with PPCs (though many people think it is), the problem is with non-cannon boating.

[Karl Streiger]

RENZOKUKEN, on 14 August 2013 - 02:12 AM, said:

....

here is the TLDR for your post:

I'm a Sniper or at least i call myself a sniper. I don't care that BattleTech don't have Snipers in a way i want to play that game - but I'm really pissed that those whiners have broken my builds instead of dying quietly under my guns.

Did i got all facts?

If you really think that current PPC are 100% fine and don't need tweaking you really should make some reality checks - sry guy.

[Taxxian]

Imagine you are a normal player in a normal Regiment or whatever size your group is, you pilot "normal" Mechs, that is with DHS ENDO and all kinds of weapons that do work well. You all are used to do 350 to 1200 damage per game and you are happy...

Now you gather a company (12) from your group, and start an Assault 12vs12... You take 4 steps forward and get hit by 4 to 10 PPCs, you die... over the course of 60 more seconds all of you die, you never see your enemy... they are just shadows on the horizon, out of range of 60% of your weapons...

Now you read OPs post, and you ask yourself: Which game does he play?

PS: To clarify my post:
I can enter a random pug game and kill 2 to 5 enemies, some of them will use PPC and die nonetheless, thus proving PPCs are bad/ok. But I can also enter a 12 vs 12 match against 12 "MetaProGamer" with scouts and jumpnipers and I will die quickly along with the rest of my team, thus proving that my assumption "PPC is fine" only is valid, as long as I fight independent Enemys that have only some PPCs and that do not play very well as a team.

Edited by Taxxian, 14 August 2013 - 02:41 AM.

[Rakshasa]

Easy on the abuse there, OP. You like your PPC's and you don't want your build touched. We get it.

As MrZakalwe points out, none of the things he lists are problems - the problem is that there's too many of them. Too many advantages on one gun. At present the PPC offers a huge number of advantages over other weapons in its weight class - you only have to log in to a match to see just how many PPC's are being fielded, testament to their effectiveness.

There aren't many things you can do to take those advantages away without altering the core nature of the PPC, either. It may well be a case of improving other weapons rather than nerfing the PPC to match them (for example, "point time" for lasers doesn't exist in the tabletop - they hit like every other weapon does, which is to say pinpoint damage. The beam time for lasers at present is a new mechanic).

One thing which does need addressing though is the heat - PPC's and ERPPC's tabletop produce colossal amounts of heat, especially the ERPPC, to the point that firing 2x ERPPC's in one volley puts most mechs into serious difficulties from heat penalties. MWO doesn't have those mechanics, which serve as a balancing factor for high-heat weapons in TT. The best we get is a flickering HUD display and a heat warning from the computer

Edit: And yeah, pinpoint convergance as the other guys pointed out. No random hit locations here means all that delicious PPC damage is going into one location 95% of the time if a player takes even the slightest bit of care with their aiming. Super-long range pinpoint convergance can quickly devolve into SniperWarrior Online, which kinda flies in the face of the established setting and more importantly isn't a whole load of fun for many players.

Edited by Rakshasa, 14 August 2013 - 02:43 AM.

[Thirdstar]

[Rengakun]

RENZOKUKEN, on 14 August 2013 - 02:12 AM, said:

Reality is, PPC is a weapon in Mech Warrior that does pinpoint damage, this is in no way a problem or something that needs fixed. I have no idea where you got this from, but you are seriously dillusional if you think there is a problem with PPC or other direct damage weapons such as Gauss.

Please, offer me some sort of correction, because I know what I am talking about.

Reality is, the PPC is a weapon in Battletech which deals 10 damage at a random part of a 'mech decided by a dice roll every 10 seconds.

And, as other posters have pointed out: The problem is with boating causing a pinpoint 40 damage alpha.





And now, for a discussion about the PPC's stats:

Right now, they have High Single Shot Damage (10), a 4 second refire rate, generating 9 heat and a range of 540 meters. They also have infinite ammo.

The refire rate and heat generated seems rather odd. Perhaps a slower firing rate, more heat and slightly more damage and the PPC will seem fine?

[Taxxian]

Dragonkindred, on 14 August 2013 - 02:24 AM, said:

The problem is not with PPCs (though many people think it is), the problem is with non-cannon boating.

No, if we only had "canon boating" you would not fight 12 different not canon Mechs with PPCs you would fight 12 times the same canon Mech with PPCs, changing nothing... It would just limit the viability of most Mech chassis and force "ProGamers" to all use the same chassis... thats all.

[Geminus]

Renzuken your wasting your breath.
I have posted, and participated in multiple posts about this subject and others like it.
My first lengthy post on these topics was addressing the popular opinion that any mech that specialized in a role "ie LRM boat" was evil and needed to be put down.
The Devs are catering the masses of players who think this should be COD with an indestructible robot, and we are not them. The most recent Ask the Devs "they" even asked for the internal structure to be buffed so that they will live longer. As if it had not occurred to them that that means that the person shooting them will also live longer and they are still going to die because they still will play the same "drone role" and not learn to play the build they are in.
Rather than implement a heat scale with penalties along the way, such as reduced movement and accuracy and threat of early shut down, the Devs admit that that is too much work for them to do and instead implement restrictions on the number of a type of weapon that you can shoot at one time by implementing a second scaling heat scale on top the first, and then a third heat scale on top of that one. And this being a game about being able to customize your build to what suits your play style, not to mention that since closed beta they have been LOWERING the heat that these weapons generate and now feel the need to add multipliers to them when you fire more than one at a time.
So then the players adapted to that set of communist like restrictions and so now the devs are looking to penalize people for combining high heat weapons with low heat weapons, which is what I thought everyone wanted from the beginning, rounded mechs that use a variety of weapons and do not "boat". So when they force a change in the direction that they wanted, and then we take a step in that direction, we then have to suffer through the penalties that will come from us making the change that they wanted.
The next step is to remove the weapons combination that arised after that, and the next after that, until we will devolve to having a set of mechs that are premade for us so that everyone is equal and has no more than one of any type of weapon, and these weapons wont be able to fire within one second of each other. Then all the masses and devs will be happy. But this will probably be deleted as the 3 other posts I made about this subject were all deleted by the forum moderators.
The mass of players don't know what they want, except that they don't ever want to be killed. So when they are killed they cry foul, they cry the game is broken and the Devs listen. What ever killed them last is "OP" it needs to be "nerfed". For the longest time, and still I have seen a few special types of people post since the triple heat scale, that the PPC stalker is the god of MWO. This was a non functional build from the minute is set foot on the battle field. Replicating the death star in a mech that can only fire once ever 2 minutes and has the speed of a glacier is not a viable mech. Any light mech can destroy this build. but instead "they" see a mon calamri crusier vaporize in front of them and they panic and run. Never occurs to anyone that that mech wont be firing again anytime soon, that their is only so much weight that a mech can carry, and that if the majority of the weight is weapons, than the minority of weight is engine, and it is basically a sitting duck. Also the thought of using cover never crossed anyone's mind.
We are in the minority, there are a precious few of us on these forums. At this point the best thing for us to do is all start a clan together, build how we know things should be built, use them how they are meant to be used and then watch as the public outcry starts asking that all mechs using medium and small lasers that travel over a speed of 90 need to be nerfed. Or that Jump jets need to be taken away on the canyon map because the jump jet mechs keep shooting me and running away where i cant follow because i feel the need to take a mech without jump jets because I read on the forums that the current "meta" was for me to take as many PPC and gauss as I could or I would die, and I don't have jump jets and I never bothered to learn to play like that.
I don't know why I even bothered to post this, because talking sense on the forums is as productive as setting one TV on CNN in front of a TV with fox news and seeing which one caves in first.

Edited by Geminus, 14 August 2013 - 04:01 PM.

[MrZakalwe]

Geminus, on 14 August 2013 - 03:01 AM, said:

~SNIP~

So are you honestly arguing that nothing should be changed and that everything is perfect and that there are no weapon imbalances in this game at all?

For the record I still happily run a 4 PPC Stalker (though my 5 PPC Stalker is now obsolete), I just have more heat sinks and fire them two at a time.

The removal of 50 damage+ pinpoint alphas is not a bad thing- the Ghost heat solution although clumsy has actually dramatically increased the variety of mechs and weapons you see in the game.

[Geminus]

MrZakalwe, on 14 August 2013 - 02:23 AM, said:

It's not a problem if you want PPCs to be so clearly superior to other weapons systems that using others is doing it wrong in nearly any situation.

No the problem is that you view the PPC as superior. You view only the pluses and ignore the drawbacks. The drawback to an energy weapons with no ammo is the HEAT. In order for it to continue to do damage is has to pack in heat sinks. Heat sinks are bulky. Even with a lot of heat sinks the weapons can only fire so many times before you have to stop and let the mech cool. While you are cooling you are probably either, firing less to avoid heat build up or behind cover not firing at all so that you can cool. This means that your damage output as slowed or stopped. A ballistic weapon generates less to no heat and can continue to do damage while the PPC has stopped to cool. There is no superior weapon, they all have checks and balances, people just refuse to see that. They simply march on getting shot, and do not take appropriate action to counter this. They don't learn, don't adapt, don't spend time crunching the builds to come up with a viable mech and learn to play to its strengths and avoiding its weaknesses. Instead people just take to the forums, read what the new "meta" is. Read what people are complaining about, and then take those weapons because they feel that that is the only way that they can survive.
The only time that a PPC build is going to dominate they way that you say, is in an open field, with no terrain, nothing to hide behind, and the enemy team has ALL short range weapons.

Edited by Geminus, 14 August 2013 - 04:02 PM.

[Rakshasa]

Quote

So then the players adapted to that set of comunist like restrictions

Ehwot?

Quote

Then all the masses and devs will be happy.

Democracy!

Quote

The mass of players don't know what they want, execept that they don't ever want to be killed.

Are all generalizers guilty of overgeneralizing? O.o Wait a minute...

Quote

We are in the minority, there are a precious few of us on these forums.

That should tell you something...

Quote

I don't know why I even bothered to post this, because talking sense on the forums is as productive as setting one TV on CNN in front of a TV with fox news and seeing which one caves in first.

Okay, this needs to be done. For SCIENCE!

Relax, man. Mechanics get changed in pursuit of a better vision. Just because you've perfected your utilization of one set of rules doesn't mean you can't do it again, right?

Edited by Rakshasa, 14 August 2013 - 03:20 AM.

[Geminus]

MrZakalwe, on 14 August 2013 - 03:13 AM, said:

So are you honestly arguing that nothing should be changed and that everything is perfect and that there are no weapon imbalances in this game at all?

For the record I still happily run a 4 PPC Stalker (though my 5 PPC Stalker is now obsolete), I just have more heat sinks and fire them two at a time.

The removal of 50 damage+ pinpoint alphas is not a bad thing- the Ghost heat solution although clumsy has actually dramatically increased the variety of mechs and weapons you see in the game.

You HAVING to run that PPC stalker means that you don't know what you are doing. You don't know how to build a mech, you don't know how to play a role. You are what is breaking the game. Not the weapons in your trend mech.

[Geminus]

Taxxian, on 14 August 2013 - 02:33 AM, said:

Imagine you are a normal player in a normal Regiment or whatever size your group is, you pilot "normal" Mechs, that is with DHS ENDO and all kinds of weapons that do work well. You all are used to do 350 to 1200 damage per game and you are happy...

Now you gather a company (12) from your group, and start an Assault 12vs12... You take 4 steps forward and get hit by 4 to 10 PPCs, you die... over the course of 60 more seconds all of you die, you never see your enemy... they are just shadows on the horizon, out of range of 60% of your weapons...

Now you read OPs post, and you ask yourself: Which game does he play?

PS: To clarify my post:
I can enter a random pug game and kill 2 to 5 enemies, some of them will use PPC and die nonetheless, thus proving PPCs are bad/ok. But I can also enter a 12 vs 12 match against 12 "MetaProGamer" with scouts and jumpnipers and I will die quickly along with the rest of my team, thus proving that my assumption "PPC is fine" only is valid, as long as I fight independent Enemys that have only some PPCs and that do not play very well as a team.

Rengakun, on 14 August 2013 - 02:40 AM, said:

Reality is, the PPC is a weapon in Battletech which deals 10 damage at a random part of a 'mech decided by a dice roll every 10 seconds.

And, as other posters have pointed out: The problem is with boating causing a pinpoint 40 damage alpha.

Which suggests that the fix is not in the weapons but instead in the targeting, implement a "cone effect" with the crosshairs. This is what the Devs do, but bandaids on things that need new paint.

[Damocles69]

Geminus, on 14 August 2013 - 03:19 AM, said:

You HAVING to run that PPC stalker means that you don't know what you are doing. You don't know how to build a mech, you don't know how to play a role. You are what is breaking the game. Not the weapons in your trend mech.

... people like this make me hate the internet