65 replies to this topic

[DeadlyNerd]

Srsly, it's an invalid concept in applying Elo rating in anything more than 1v1, and there are more bandaids on it than on an anime patient.

Scrap the matchmaker already and just give us tonnage restrictions, it's taking too long to find a match and there's really no benefit.

Edited by DeadlyNerd, 16 August 2013 - 12:54 AM.

[Turboferret]

DeadlyNerd, on 16 August 2013 - 12:53 AM, said:

[color=#959595]it's an invalid concept in applying Elo rating in anything more than 1v1[/color]

What? It works just fine for MOBAs like LoL and DotA, FPSes like CS:GO and RTSes like teamgames in Starcraft 2.

[DeadlyNerd]

Azrael1911, on 16 August 2013 - 12:59 AM, said:

What? It works just fine for MOBAs like LoL and DotA, FPSes like CS:GO and RTSes like teamgames in Starcraft 2.

It doesn't. I've had countless steamrolls in DoTA.

Also 1v1 can always mean premade team vs premade team, but that premade team is a single entity and players in it aren't counted individually.

Edited by DeadlyNerd, 16 August 2013 - 01:03 AM.

[Turboferret]

DeadlyNerd, on 16 August 2013 - 01:02 AM, said:

It doesn't. I've had countless steamrolls in DoTA.

And most people don't. Which is the point of an ELO system.

Anecdotal evidence is no argument against a mathematical system that works.

[Cybermech]

maybe tonnage restrictions is incoming, not sure if PGI said they ain't guna do it.
however ELO is not all that bad, there were way worse steamrolling before it.

[AlexEss]

DeadlyNerd, on 16 August 2013 - 12:53 AM, said:

Srsly, it's an invalid concept in applying Elo rating in anything more than 1v1, and there are more bandaids on it than on an anime patient.

Scrap the matchmaker already and just give us tonnage restrictions, it's taking too long to find a match and there's really no benefit.

So you are asking for more steam-rolling then? Does not sound like a very good system to be honest.

I agree there are limits to what a system can do with your data but some form of skill balance system is needed. Especially as team work is such a key part of this game.

[DeadlyNerd]

Azrael1911, on 16 August 2013 - 01:06 AM, said:

And most people don't. Which is the point of an ELO system.

Anecdotal evidence is no argument against a mathematical system that works.

Okay then, prove your statements. Give me evidence that most PuG games in any of those Team based games are balanced.
Hint : SC is never team based unless premades.



edit: thought so

Edited by DeadlyNerd, 19 August 2013 - 02:16 PM.

[Ralgas]

it's not that bad, if it's not low pop causing the outliers they just need to remove that 1:1 W/L ratio it aims for and uncap the top elo bracket.

Everyone will then either start hitting equally matched players or hitting a ceiling where they get steamrolled back into their correct level due to inflated elo via "cheese skillz". Cheese leetz will eventually reach a level where that is all they face is the "alpha" mech builds, but that's a symptom of build choice and playstyle over the system.

[DeadlyNerd]

AlexEss, on 16 August 2013 - 01:12 AM, said:

So you are asking for more steam-rolling then? Does not sound like a very good system to be honest.

I agree there are limits to what a system can do with your data but some form of skill balance system is needed. Especially as team work is such a key part of this game.

I'd rather get steamrolled by a randomly composed group, than something composed with a false matchmaking system. In first instance I can always expect a better game, in second I can't because there's a pattern.

Also, you can't really expect teamwork from PuGs. Can't believe you haven't learned that already.

Ralgas, on 16 August 2013 - 01:13 AM, said:

it's not that bad, if it's not low pop causing the outliers they just need to remove that 1:1 W/L ratio it aims for and uncap the top elo bracket.

Everyone will then either start hitting equally matched players or hitting a ceiling where they get steamrolled back into their correct level due to inflated elo via "cheese skillz". Cheese leetz will eventually reach a level where that is all they face is the "alpha" mech builds, but that's a symptom of build choice and playstyle over the system.

Even if so, bystanders still have to suffer through the ordeal.

Edited by DeadlyNerd, 16 August 2013 - 01:18 AM.

[Ralgas]

DeadlyNerd, on 16 August 2013 - 01:15 AM, said:

Even if so, bystanders still have to suffer through the ordeal.

No more than they will with tonnage caps, and given the "go big or go home" attitude most still seem to cling to it might affect queue times negatively rather than what you'd like to see

[AlexEss]

DeadlyNerd, on 16 August 2013 - 01:15 AM, said:

I'd rather get steamrolled by a randomly composed group, than something composed with a false matchmaking system. In first instance I can always expect a better game, in second I can't because there's a pattern.

Also, you can't really expect teamwork from PuGs. Can't believe you haven't learned that already.

You honestly makes no sense at all... But you seem to be set in your way so i wish you the best of luck

Ps. I have actually seen many PUG games with some fairly solid tactics being deployed, both with or against me. So you can and should always expects teamwork in a PuG match. It is not always it happen but if you do not you are handicapping your self. Especially you should always assume the opposition know what they are doing in a pug match. Ds.

[DeadlyNerd]

AlexEss, on 16 August 2013 - 01:35 AM, said:

You honestly makes no sense at all... But you seem to be set in your way so i wish you the best of luck

Ps. I have actually seen many PUG games with some fairly solid tactics being deployed, both with or against me. So you can and should always expects teamwork in a PuG match. It is not always it happen but if you do not you are handicapping your self. Especially you should always assume the opposition know what they are doing in a pug match. Ds.

Actually it makes all the sense in the world. Read up on the definition of insanity if you haven't already heard it 12355 times in FC3.

Excuse me on the language, but don't BS me, unless moving as a herd towards 1 point on the map is called tactics. Almost all flankings happen accidentally because too many PuGs decided to not follow the blob.

[Ralgas]

DeadlyNerd, on 16 August 2013 - 02:03 AM, said:

Excuse me on the language, but don't BS me, unless moving as a herd towards 1 point on the map is called tactics. Almost all flankings happen accidentally because too many PuGs decided to not follow the blob.

It's only because we cant talk to each other. i actually find more often than not i flank... the blob ignores that the enemy is flanked and jinks the other direction, leaving me/a small group cut off and outnumbered to be slaughtered

[XANi]

Azrael1911, on 16 August 2013 - 12:59 AM, said:

What? It works just fine for MOBAs like LoL and DotA, FPSes like CS:GO and RTSes like teamgames in Starcraft 2.

It kinda works. The more players are in the match, the more matches matchmaking need to place player in their "true" ELO.

But what really screws it over is that players wont play every match equally good. Examples

• player is trying to master chassis - so he plays either builds he dosesn't like or often rides badly-fitted mechs because he doesnt want spend extra on chassis he dont want
  
• player just have a bad day
  
• bad team comp (either his or enemy team)

All this factors add randomness (that increases time till player is in "right" spot) and bias.


If good player rides inferior mech just because he wants to master chassis, he will lose more.

Matchmaking will notice it and place him in lower ELO, with easier opponents, in effort to make his winrate 50/50

When that player then plays on his favourite mech, he will pwnstomp because game gave him a bunch of noobs to play with.

Edited by XANi, 16 August 2013 - 02:33 AM.

[Cybermech]

XANI you would be write however ELO is a long term system.
The person would have to be piloting the "spare" chassis for a whole to have his ELO to drop that much.
Even by then normally someone will have pulled a decent'ish build.

[DeadlyNerd]

Cybermech, on 16 August 2013 - 02:47 AM, said:

XANI you would be write however ELO is a long term system.
The person would have to be piloting the "spare" chassis for a whole to have his ELO to drop that much.
Even by then normally someone will have pulled a decent'ish build.

So he'll have to play with that decent build the same, if not greater, amount of matches, to have his rating corrected.

Look, read up on Elo rating. It's made for chess, where it's 1v1, strict playing rules, unchanged playing environment and the player solely relies on himself to win.
It makes perfect sense in such 1v1.
It makes absolutely no sense in PuGs or even dynamic premade groups.

[Yankee77]

Cybermech, on 16 August 2013 - 01:11 AM, said:

maybe tonnage restrictions is incoming, not sure if PGI said they ain't guna do it.
however ELO is not all that bad, there were way worse steamrolling before it.

Check out the last ATD, they confirmed tonnage restrictions are coming. Indeed, they've been saying they were putting in tonnage restrictions many months ago.

I think it is waiting for UI 2.0, as obviously such a system will require a lobby where we can pick our mechs and stick within the tonnage limit.

And yeah, the matchmaking is far better now. Far fewer steamrolls.

[DeadlyNerd]

Itkovian, on 16 August 2013 - 04:40 AM, said:

Check out the last ATD, they confirmed tonnage restrictions are coming. Indeed, they've been saying they were putting in tonnage restrictions many months ago.

I think it is waiting for UI 2.0, as obviously such a system will require a lobby where we can pick our mechs and stick within the tonnage limit.

And yeah, the matchmaking is far better now. Far fewer steamrolls.

It's "better" because with 12v12 there's a better chance that good players will join to compensate for bad players.
With that logic PGI should just do 32 vs 32 and we'll all be happy. Baobab tree may be huge but the thing's hollow from inside and you can guess the weakness.

I honestly hope it doesn't, but this upscaling will eventually cause a problem and steamrolling will be back.

Edited by DeadlyNerd, 16 August 2013 - 04:48 AM.

[Hauser]

DeadlyNerd, on 16 August 2013 - 04:46 AM, said:

It's "better" because with 12v12 there's a better chance that good players will join to compensate for bad players.

I'm sorry you are mistaken. The match maker is not trying to balance teams out. Rather it looks for players near the same Elo value. When it can't find any, over time it will get less picky about who it puts into the match.

http://mwomercs.com/...-making-update/

Quote

How does the match maker compose a teams Elo rating, is it average rating or closest to a target?

It's closest to a target value, so the match maker starts trying to make a match for an Elo of say 1300 and will pull in players to those teams closest to those values; however, as mentioned earlier within growing thresholds and those curves will be tuned. Currently it may be a bit 'sloppy' about how it's filling those buckets but over time it will be tuned to be much more precise.

We need to do this carefully over time as generally the cost of precision is time to find a match we want to slowly find a very nice balance between time to find a match and the number of matches that are correctly composed.

[DeadlyNerd]

Hauser, on 16 August 2013 - 04:56 AM, said:

I'm sorry you are mistaken. The match maker is not trying to balance teams out. Rather it looks for players near the same Elo value. When it can't find any, over time it will get less picky about who it puts into the match.

It get's less picky over the period of actually creating a group. Each time it starts creating a group the criteria is the same. With a lot of players being in imbalanced matches, the matchmaker becomes "less picky" more often, resulting in more imbalanced matches.
It's a chain reaction and the only way to end it is by doing a server maintenance.

Even in 12v12 it can happen that initial 3 deaths result in a domino effect of that team getting steamrolled. The only advantage over 8v8 is that those 3 deaths can be compensated for more easily.

Edited by DeadlyNerd, 16 August 2013 - 05:26 AM.