45 replies to this topic

[Herodes]

Livewyr, on 16 August 2013 - 11:10 AM, said:

"Who do you get to volunteer to be the player in the inferior mech in the larger group?"

If I had a choice between being in a totally inferior mech in exchange for being with more other players (which in a pug matters NOT) or being in the Superior death dealer in exchange for being with fewer people.. the answer would be a no brainer. I want to be in the cool-guy death machine. Mech numbers be damned. (Especially since in a PUG, you often end up in 1v1 situations regardless of your situational awareness)

My choice would be different, I'd be IS all the way. This is a lore-based game and thus at least a part of the player base will make choices according to their taste in lore / looks / whatever and not opt for raw power.

In lore, the Clans are a primitive society with a fascist core that has opted for a path of degeneration. Their only success is the tech caste producing outstanding stuff. Outstanding and ruining TT in the process, destroying a nicely balanced game.

In TT as well in MWO, the Clans also attract power hungry players. I agree with your view here and also see a problem as Clantech most likely will be the stuff to take, at least for a significant part of the player base.

zorak ramone, on 16 August 2013 - 12:38 PM, said:

The whole point of the clans is that their technology is objectively supieror to the IS. Even the IS's later inventions (Heavy Gauss, RACs, MRMs, MMLs) don't match up to clan stuff.

There are only two reasons the IS was able to stand up against the clans:
1) They massively outnumbered them
2) On a tactical and strategic level, the clans were like 5 year old children

Agreed. I do not think reducing the superiority of the Clans is the way to go. Their whole existance and storyline evolves around that.
I also think that numbers are the way to go for balancing.

But as I pointed out above, we might need more than just numbers to keep the IS attractive. I'd advocate CW for that. Make the Clan players pay for their choice somehow.

[zorak ramone]

Herodes, on 16 August 2013 - 02:40 PM, said:

But as I pointed out above, we might need more than just numbers to keep the IS attractive. I'd advocate CW for that. Make the Clan players pay for their choice somehow.

If I was doing the clans, I'd make them pay by forcing them to adhere to an honor system in order to keep their mechs. Instead of cBills, the clanners would get honor points (hBills?). It would be kind of like repair and reload: each clan mech costs a certain amount of honor to use. If they don't earn back that honor, and don't have enough honor in reserve, they can't launch the mech. I'd also cap the max honor you can accumulate so a clanner couldn't just hoard honor and then go all un-clan like.

They would earn honor like the IS earns cbills (i.e. through wins/losses and battlefield accomplishments) but they were earn it for different things. For example, the clans would get no honor for spotting targets or assists, but for kills, killing an enemy solo, etc. They would loose honor for firing on a previously engaged target, for firing into someone's back, for firing on a shut down target, but not team kills (as long as you don't fire into their back ... killing teammates in honorable combat = honor!). Losses wouldn't be penalized so harshly so long as the player died honorably (i.e. with lots of kills/damage).

[Xanquil]

Easiest way to "balance" the Clans is to make them all NPCs. (ie PVE) After all there is no choice of picking clan as a faction.(yet) I think it will most likely be a year or more before the first of the Clan mechs ever reaches a players hands. As much as people may hate this idea I bet PGI will do it. :}

[Khobai]

Quote

and Clan tech will be available to IS (engines/ES/FF/Weapons/etc)

Doubtful. Otherwise every weapon we have now becomes obsolete. I highly doubt clan tech will be available on IS mechs.

Most likely it will be 8v12

[Joseph Mallan]

Khobai, on 16 August 2013 - 05:36 PM, said:

Doubtful. Otherwise every weapon we have now becomes obsolete. I highly doubt clan tech will be available on IS mechs.

Most likely it will be 8v12

Not for 5 years... Unless We can be picked up by the Wolf's Dragoons. They are building Clan Omnis right now on Outreach.

[Livewyr]

I'm seeing "I'd be IS because I understand that numbers mean more on a team than my own individual capability" and "I'd be IS because of Lore.."

1: I would argue that you're not the majority. PUG play is rarely about teamwork and more about individual prowess and capability. A player is going to choose to go for the power. (And also- as someone pointed out, being the clan mech offers a more target rich environment with which to have fun mopping the floor with.)

2: The CW may be based on Lore.. but game play is most certainly not. (What about ECM is Lore?)

-----------------------------------

Also- if you make weaknesses for clan mechs (the whole point of this thread) it won't be miserable for an Atlas to go up against a Dire Wolf. (Example: with Dire Wolf RoF and agility reduced, the Atlas would be better for extended brawling.)

[Herodes]

But I don't want a weak Daishi. I do not want to pity the enemy (Clans), I want to hate them and not feel guilty or shameful for it. I prefer being the heroic underdog in my IS Mech, walking on moral high ground.
So no, no weak Clan Mechs. They should be the terror they are. Balance needs to come from somewhere else.

And besides ... the positive effect would be a cleansing of the IS of all cheese builders. All the cheese Warriors will go Clan and thus they will finally find what was build from them from the start. A win-win situation. You see Clan, you instantly know it stinks.

[Joseph Mallan]

Livewyr, on 16 August 2013 - 06:16 PM, said:

Also- if you make weaknesses for clan mechs (the whole point of this thread) it won't be miserable for an Atlas to go up against a Dire Wolf. (Example: with Dire Wolf RoF and agility reduced, the Atlas would be better for extended brawling.)

That's just not how the Clans are supposed to be. They are the Boogieman, the creature under your bed. They are supposed to come in and roll whole planetary Mech forces with much fewer numbers. To date every OP Build has almost matched the effect of a Clan Mech.

GaussPult=Glass Spider
6 PPC Stalker=Warhawk Prime
Splattapult= 2 Streak6
Hunchback-P= Nova Prime (Well almost)
Jager40=Hunchback IIC
PPC Lights=Adder Prime

I haven't complained about a single build to date Cause I know how powerful the Clans are suppoed to be, and I want to be ready.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 16 August 2013 - 06:50 PM.

[Livewyr]

I see hellfire and damnation in the forums when cheesebuild clan mechs start owning light mechs and the "numbers" balancing goes right out the window.

[Joseph Mallan]

Light Mechs? Dude they are going to be owning Every Mech.

Stormcrow -B
97 KpH
Ultra20
6 ER Medium Lasers.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 16 August 2013 - 06:59 PM.

[Livewyr]

Sorry.. was thinking about a Commando I just ganked with 2PPC/Gauss in a match. I meant "IS" mechs.

[James The Fox Dixon]

Best way to balance Clans is enforce bidding and Zelbregin right from the get go. Clan force has to bid with their mechs against the IS forces and they get a match. Clans are limited to a Binary vs. 12 IS mechs. Any Clanner that breaks Zellbregin by firing on more than one mech (if the system doesn't recognize the Clanner's original target as destroyed) and they register damage to multiple IS mechs they will gain no rewards. I would even go so far as to say that they are penalized with negative rewards and I'm not talking teeny tiny, but massive penalties. Combine this with mech maintenance this should keep the Clanners in their place and properly fighting as they should.

Edited by James The Fox Dixon, 16 August 2013 - 08:56 PM.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

James The Fox Dixon, on 16 August 2013 - 08:55 PM, said:

Best way to balance Clans is enforce bidding and Zelbregin right from the get go. Clan force has to bid with their mechs against the IS forces and they get a match. Clans are limited to a Binary vs. 12 IS mechs. Any Clanner that breaks Zellbregin by firing on more than one mech (if the system doesn't recognize the Clanner's original target as destroyed) and they register damage to multiple IS mechs they will gain no rewards. I would even go so far as to say that they are penalized with negative rewards and I'm not talking teeny tiny, but massive penalties. Combine this with mech maintenance this should keep the Clanners in their place and properly fighting as they should.

Hmm... I kinda like this sort of restriction on the Clans. And we might need in addition to this, something to do with loyalty points, or whatever the stat could be called for the Clans for MWO, once the Clans are playable in the game.

[Xanquil]

If PGI allows players to be part of the clans.

One of the more evil things you could do is make clan mechs have no mech tree. Or treat Omnis as only one chassis, after all the different "variants" are just different loadouts. Giving no reward for assist would also be something I can see being done.

Reinforce the fact that IS mechs and Clan mech use two different techs that don't want to work together make IS mechs unable to mount clan weapons/equipment.(and vise versa)

Have players "bid" by making them "pay" honor(loyalty points) in order to bring a any mech heavier than medium, and give them a bonus for bringing a light.(10%)

They also can make force a no mixed drop (clan+IS) rule. That way Clans can be limited to 10 VS 12.

[GalaxyBluestar]

this is pgi we're talking about, they like little work simple answers hense the ghost heat. a few numbers and presto we have bandaid fix no extra programming or graphics required.

so what they'll do for clans is up all clan tech heat by 50% and double cooldown rates for weapons compared to IS. if clan had ac20 it would be 8 so ultra 20's will be 6 seconds etc.

that way IS mechs could deliver around 20-50% more firepower over a timescale and clans wouldn't want to alpha for one instant burst because of heat. there a fair match. now carry on speculating what pgi won't get round to cause they'll have pulled the plug on this game.

[Narcissistic Martyr]

Lolz balancing SSRMs and lasers. They have no point in the world where clan LRMs don't have a minimum range and weigh half as much as their IS counterparts and where omnimechs can load as many as they have free tonnage.

Basically, IS tech will always be inferior to clan tech so we need to balance based on numbers or the amount of tonnage you can drop with.

[Zeusus]

James The Fox Dixon, on 16 August 2013 - 08:55 PM, said:

snip...
Any Clanner that breaks Zellbregin by firing on more than one mech (if the system doesn't recognize the Clanner's original target as destroyed) and they register damage to multiple IS mechs they will gain no rewards. I would even go so far as to say that they are penalized with negative rewards and I'm not talking teeny tiny, but massive penalties.
snip...

OK so you are dueling, and now I run in front of you to take a shot for my buddy... enjoy being penalized because I broke Zell as an IS pilot? You can't properly enforce this in a computer game as really that isn't your fault. According to Zell I should be standing in a corner somewhere taking a nap until it's my turn to fight you...

zorak ramone, on 16 August 2013 - 05:22 PM, said:

snip...

They would lose honor for firing on a previously engaged target, for firing into someone's back, for firing on a shut down target, but not team kills (as long as you don't fire into their back ...
snip...

Also easy to abuse. Oh no you fired missiles at me, hit shutdown! Now you lost honour. I turn on alpha you and shut down, you can't shoot back for risk of losing more honour. Stupid way for me to fight yes... but someone will do it... just to watch you squirm. Especially if they feel like they are losing the fight.

One VERY important thing you have to think about for any idea... how can it be abused, as it will be. And while the second point I made is something you could in theory cover in the terms of service (hard thought to enforce), but the first one not so much... "It was an accident I swear! Didn't know he was there!"

Also what if the IS doesn't follow Zell? Most clans never followed it with the Inner Sphere for this reason, I think the Wolves were one of the few who generally did (mind they were wardens instead of crusaders...). Would the rewards then not fall back on the way we have it now, as it was not considered dishonourable to then shoot whomever happens to be in front of you.

[James The Fox Dixon]

Zeusus, on 17 August 2013 - 08:21 AM, said:

OK so you are dueling, and now I run in front of you to take a shot for my buddy... enjoy being penalized because I broke Zell as an IS pilot? You can't properly enforce this in a computer game as really that isn't your fault. According to Zell I should be standing in a corner somewhere taking a nap until it's my turn to fight you...


Also easy to abuse. Oh no you fired missiles at me, hit shutdown! Now you lost honour. I turn on alpha you and shut down, you can't shoot back for risk of losing more honour. Stupid way for me to fight yes... but someone will do it... just to watch you squirm. Especially if they feel like they are losing the fight.

One VERY important thing you have to think about for any idea... how can it be abused, as it will be. And while the second point I made is something you could in theory cover in the terms of service (hard thought to enforce), but the first one not so much... "It was an accident I swear! Didn't know he was there!"

Also what if the IS doesn't follow Zell? Most clans never followed it with the Inner Sphere for this reason, I think the Wolves were one of the few who generally did (mind they were wardens instead of crusaders...). Would the rewards then not fall back on the way we have it now, as it was not considered dishonourable to then shoot whomever happens to be in front of you.

The IS is exempt from Zellbrigen and only the Clans are required to adhere to it. In this time frame, all of the Clans adhered strictly to the tenets of Zell, even in the face of the IS breaking it. It wasn't until the Battle of Tukayyid that the Clans rethought their adherence to Zell. Tukayyid is a full 3 years from now, so enjoy being handicapped by the rules of Zell.

See: http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Zellbrigen and Total Warfare pages 273-275.

EDIT: Under the Honor Rules on page 273, all of the Clans are currently at Honor Level 1 from 3049 up till May 20, 3052. Honor Level 1 states that the Clan mechwarriors will adhere fully to Zellbrigen regardless of the actions of their enemy. Thus at the beginning of each match, a Clan mechwarrior must declare a target of their duel. They are free to choose multiple opponents as long as every Clan mechwarrior present has a target. Thus, a Clan mechwarrior can declare up to 3 targets in a 10 vs 12 drop or he/she can declare two targets with another Clan mechwarrior declaring 2 targets or all of the Clan mechwarriors can declare a single target while the remaining two IS pilots can sit out the duels or they can join forces to focus fire on a single Clan mechwarrior. If the IS side focus fires on multiple Clan mechs and violates Zellbrigen, the Clans will still fully adhere to Zellbrigen.

This is easily programmed in and the system can see who shot whom. If a Clanner violates Zellbrigen and damages another mech they would be penalized severely when it comes to rewards i.e. negative rewards. It doesn't matter what the intention was. The only thing that matters is if a Clanner damaged a mech that wasn't their called target.

To designate a target, the Clan mechwarrior must declare so and so as thier target by using a keypress that designates it. This keypress also automatically targets the opposing mech with the lock subject to current rules already in game. Switching targets that are not designated as such is a loss of Honor and results in penalty.

If a Clan mechwarrior willingly leaves weapons range they incur a loss of Honor and results in a penalty. Leaving weapons range will be any action that results in them losing a lock on their designated target like ducking behind a hill for cover. Moving away from their target is also considered to be leaving weapons range. Sniping isn't allowed either since that doesn't give their target a chance to prove their worthiness as a foe, so that also incurs a penalty. Clan mechwarriors are great brawlers and duelists, so all combat they do must be done within 200m or less from their target. If they move beyond 200m after already engaging a target they will incur a penalty.

Clan mechs cannot mount TAG, BAP, ECM, and other area effecting equipment and weapons.

Edited by James The Fox Dixon, 17 August 2013 - 09:01 AM.

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

No, giving one side more numbers than another ONLY opens a can of worms and would be a very PGI way of ******* around the bush, not solving the problem at its core.


The only rational way to balance Clan tech is this.





Edit:

"But Highalnder! That's stupid! Clans are supposed to be omgwtfbbq OP!!!"

Well, sucks. You can either have a game that doesn't **** off half the community and force people to play Clan tech 100% of the time, or you nerf them. Your choice. If you cannot accept that, then I'll just have to call the waaaaambulance for you.

How we "nerf" clan tech exactly? Well I guess that's still up for debate. My idea would be to make them different, and not exactly more superior. Have them be different enough that they have their advantages over IS such as keeping them lighter and take up less crits, at the cost of much longer recycle rates or higher heat. (I.e. Clan Gauss is still only 12t as oppose to the IS 15t, but the Clan Gauss recycle rate is 7 seconds, as opposed to the IS Gauss being 4 seconds. This makes it better as a sniper, but much worse under pressure in a brawler situation).

Clan Tech cannot remain 100% better in all regards or you kill half the game instantly.

Edited by mwhighlander, 17 August 2013 - 09:16 AM.

[Lightfoot]

Inner Sphere loses to Clan until 3058 tech appears. Balancing done.