361 replies to this topic

[MysteryNotes]

Freyar, on 12 June 2012 - 09:11 PM, said:

HoN, LoL, and WoT are examples of stats ruining the games. I hear players all the time whining and b****ing about MMR and rating about how it's unfair because the match is now stacked against them.

Stats should not be public.

The elitism it causes is bad, i agree.
But when you get stuck in a match with a teammate with a 1:9 KDR, you can at least get out of the room so you don't have to tear your hair out over that player's antics.

[Sighard Aglachad]

Stats in WoT are not visible in-battle without mods. Nobody is ever forced to install these mods. Nobody is ever forced to look at their own stats either. If people are so obsessed about finding the stats of the other players in their match (and they are), they will always find a way to do it even if it means writing their own application to log and dump stats to a fan-site database. 13 pages of discussion and barely anyone has caught on that the stats aren't the problem, the people are. Do I even need to point out that no amount of bickering back and forth in a forum is going to change human nature and make anyone more/less likely to exhibit the negative behaviors highlighted in this thread?

[Co Starring]

I like stats to see my own progression.
No use if they are global stats though (Light and Assault all combined in one big heap for instance).
Seperate stats for each and every Mech and it's variants is a must.

Otherwise, never mind about stats...

[Sean von Steinike]

MysteryNotes, on 13 July 2012 - 12:34 AM, said:

The elitism it causes is bad, i agree.
But when you get stuck in a match with a teammate with a 1:9 KDR, you can at least get out of the room so you don't have to tear your hair out over that player's antics.

And if that player is playing an almost unarmed scout that almost never kills anyone directly?

[MysteryNotes]

Sean von Steinike, on 13 July 2012 - 01:08 AM, said:

And if that player is playing an almost unarmed scout that almost never kills anyone directly?

That would be the equivalent of a support player in HoN, and there are stats for those as well(Assists, wards placed, etc).

I highly doubt a player would play an almost unarmed scout mech for strangers.
Someone with such a setup would likely be playing in a organised group, or with friends. In that case, it wouldn't matter to them anyway.

[Basilhare]

I think there should be an option to keep them private and also disallow any kind of XVM outcome predictor...nothing more depressing than being told you only have a 12% chance to win the game....

[Sean von Steinike]

MysteryNotes, on 13 July 2012 - 01:12 AM, said:

That would be the equivalent of a support player in HoN, and there are stats for those as well(Assists, wards placed, etc).

I highly doubt a player would play an almost unarmed scout mech for strangers.
Someone with such a setup would likely be playing in a organised group, or with friends. In that case, it wouldn't matter to them anyway.

I find a lot of time that people with high KD ratios are glory hounds, kill stealers, braggarts, petulant and the worst teammates ever.

[Vaktor]

In WOT I had a really nice KD ratio for one simple reason... I play a tricked out BT-2 where the only people I am fighting are either in very crappy tanks or are new to the game... I found it to be a easy way to make money and sometime it is fun being the dominant force on the battlefield when the only other tanks I have are medium tanks and at higher levels I can't win as much because I don't pay for ammo.

In short there needs to be more stats... lots and lots of stats.

P.S. I know this game is not WOT but I was just using it to reinforce the example already put forth.

[MysteryNotes]

Sean von Steinike, on 13 July 2012 - 01:18 AM, said:

I find a lot of time that people with high KD ratios are glory hounds, kill stealers, braggarts, petulant and the worst teammates ever.

I'm sorry to hear that you've had a bad experience with "high kdr" players.
I've also had some myself, but most of the guys i run into with high KDR are pretty decent people. Just rather competitive.

Of course, there will always be a bunch of idiots no matter what group you find.
My experiences with mid to high KDR players has always been better than with the low ones.

[Arteste]

JD Makane, on 12 June 2012 - 09:04 PM, said:

Everyone knows win rate is a useless predictor of a players skill, its just used against you in arguments.
What I would like to see is to have kills be credited to whomever did the most damage to the target. Do that, and you can keep whatever stats you like.

The only problem I see in this is the guy who likes light mechs... how many kills or high damage ratio would he get... Then again, the Devs could divide it by tonnage. Then possibly that would yield a better stat overall!

Respectfully,
Artste
DWAR Mechwarrior

[Reported for Inappropriate Name]

the game defines the worth of statistics, and the statistics define the worth of the player to those that find value in abilities.

In world of tanks win rate is a grey area between 45% and 52-4%, after that range it becomes an indication of your battle contribution. low 40's and lower means you're regularly contributing to a loss. high 50's and higher means you're regularly contributing to a win. the farther the number goes in the respective direction, the more contribution you make.

the most important stats would be things like individual tank accuracy, kills, damage(and damage per game), and average experience. an exceptional tanker who has premium will be raking in over 900 exp average in that tank.

high kills but low damage means a fast gun, or an opportunist that is potentially not contributing to the dps race only going for kill shots, high damage but low kills can be a product of a slow firing gun, or someone who cares more about contributing than killing.

accuracy means how reliable they will be to get damage on target. every miss puts you behind in the dps race.

but I digress. There must be stats if there is to be a competitive community. the statistic sheet is the resume of an unknown up and coming competitor, and will help them find a home on par with their abilities.


there will always be petty individuals lording things that they deem important over others. the only defense to this is to ignore them, the only offense is to show them up to shut their mouths. If however you don't have a thick skin, then too bad. Grow one or accept that by replying you're giving them what they want.

Edited by Battlecruiser, 13 July 2012 - 01:36 AM.

[DoctorJest]

Efficiency in WoT is far more enlightening as a guide to a player's capabilities than WinRate but I would rather by far that in MWO those things were for personal viewing only, and from my POV as a guide to improve one's playing.

I do not approve of the internet Braggadocio that is Stat-Whoring because it causes far more issues than it ever solves. Can one measure fighting spirit, honour, willingness to follow commands and act as a team player?
Those are more valuable assets by far.....

(Yes, I play WoT....no, I don't have a cripplingly low WR - at this point in time it's about 60% with 1643 efficiency on this account (I maintain two - yes, *rasp* to the EULA) which means absolutely nothing at all but I mention it as a way of deflecting any possible ad hominem arguments re: stats)

Edited by DoctorJest, 13 July 2012 - 01:49 AM.

[Cake Bandit]

What about instead of stats we got a debriefing that let us follow the performance of our teams on a battle map? That way we could actually analyze our tactics. What we did well and what we did poorly instead of just looking to maximize our K:D?

Even just a little colored line that followed our progress and played back where we went and where we fired/who we engaged with. There'd be plenty of data in just watching that playback alone.

[capt bishop]

I dont want a Win/Loss ratio considering you dont get a say on who your paired with.

I dont want any stats to be shown TBH.

[Sam Slade]

Stats only visible in... SOLARIS! That's when stats will matter... if the faction element is to remain viable then public stas are esssentially free intel. Seems strange that any group with a string of losses is going to advertise the fact.

[Marcello GK]

I am not a big fan of stats and especially not of Kill-/Death-Statistics when you play as a team.
Often people take more care about their stats and are not so team-orientated anymore.
They stay in behind and "steal" kills and so on.
But in a teamgame you should work together, help each other and try to do the best for the group ...even if this means to die first

[Glythe]

The bottom line is that WoT allows you to fudge stats and appear better than you are.

Premium lets you play with 2 friends and if they are good you have 3 good players on your team. A free platoon only allows 2 players. Gold ammunition improves gun performance... and leads to a higher win percentage. Converting free XP with gold lets you play tanks fully upgraded instead of stock. That's another huge advantage.

My win rate is 58% and if I could I'd like to turn off my stats. Everyone is running that stupid win rate mod and I get targeted first a lot more than I did in the past.

Stats do not equate skill.... rather they indicate its possible existence.

If turning stats private makes people happy then I say why not? Heaven forbid people might actually have to duel it out in a practice map (I know that wont be in at launch) to see who can make a better build and see who is the better pilot.

[Cake Bandit]

Sam Slade, on 13 July 2012 - 02:08 AM, said:

Stats only visible in... SOLARIS! That's when stats will matter... if the faction element is to remain viable then public stas are esssentially free intel. Seems strange that any group with a string of losses is going to advertise the fact.

That solaris bit is GENIUS. Making the only place where statistics matter be a sporting arena is great.

[podcat]

DoctorJest, on 13 July 2012 - 01:47 AM, said:

Efficiency in WoT is far more enlightening as a guide to a player's capabilities than WinRate but I would rather by far that in MWO those things were for personal viewing only, and from my POV as a guide to improve one's playing.

I do not approve of the internet Braggadocio that is Stat-Whoring because it causes far more issues than it ever solves. Can one measure fighting spirit, honour, willingness to follow commands and act as a team player?
Those are more valuable assets by far.....

(Yes, I play WoT....no, I don't have a cripplingly low WR - at this point in time it's about 60% with 1643 efficiency on this account (I maintain two - yes, *rasp* to the EULA) which means absolutely nothing at all but I mention it as a way of deflecting any possible ad hominem arguments re: stats)

yes you can measure fighting spirit, and willingness to follow commands and act as a team player. assuming you played enough those things will be easily visible in your stats.

its good that you posted your stats because its a great example of how not to design a stats system. My first thought was "how can someone have such good stats", and those stats are really good (puts you in top 1% of players) but not think that they mean anything? well, you have only played 133 battles which basically, with the randomness of WoT it really does mean little. The efficiency however show that you are helping out and being a good player. Efficiency is really good measurement, and its much less effected by randomness of wins and losses.

Win rate basically gives you a rough idea how your tank is doing, but if you have less than 150 battles in a tank it is mostly going to be noise. Global win rate after something like 5-10k games is a very good metric because it shows that you arent just an accurate shot, but can read the battlefield and position yourself where its needed etc. Its not super accurate, and it can be padded easily by playing with a good clan etc and only pick on weaker teams. a 60% win guy is probably better than a 55% win guy, but there is no guarantee. a 1800 efficiency guy is pretty much always better than a 1200 guy, but both can have good or bad days.

I think for a competitive pvp game to be fun there need to be stats, I find great fun in seeing my efficiency rating in WoT climb for example because it shows that I'm learning things and improving, the problem is that efficiency isnt an official stat and you need mods or tools to see it, and win % is on its own a completely useless stat.

Usually just from looking at someones stats sheet I can see what they need to do to improve. someone with decent average XP and low wins, yet have good accuracy is someone I give the advice to play more aggressively because it probably means that they sit back for too long and the match is already decided when they start doing their job.

and because people will probably look it up anyway. My stats in WoT are 1500 efficiency and 54% wins after 8.7k battles, they arent super amazing, but I'm happy with it and see it steadily go up as I get better.

[DoctorJest]

@Podcat

I agree, and you've made several of my points for me regarding statistics and the veracity thereof - also how easy it is to pad the system which is precisely the reason I made a second account. For......various reasons.......I recently became almost overwhelmingly obsessed with my battlefield performance and used an invite code to create an account with no history, only my ability. The sample size of the DoctorJest accout IS far too small to allow for anything other than a general trend at that time but with that account I have never used a stock tank, I've benefited from months of experience and clearly that shows in the figures.

As noted - I maintain two accounts and the first is hampered statistically by my period as a novice (I dislike the term noob) so it's 10k battles, 52% win rate and 1300 efficiency. Good, but not spectacular. I've suffered like many through grinds with stock tanks, lack of knowledge, lack of platoon opportunities and although at this point in time you can see that I'm probably a reasonable player I rushed into higher tiers far too soon and suffered for it so it's not entirely representative of me as a WoT player at this point in time.

I've played several games recently on my main account with a couple of Patton players who are around 58% wins, 1800 efficiency and 12K+ battles. There are some monstrous players out there.......

Quote

yes you can measure fighting spirit, and willingness to follow commands and act as a team player. assuming you played enough those things will be easily visible in your stats.

Partially.

I've lost count of the games where I've had my bottom roundly kicked despite playing my heart out but my point was that if I were to pick a line-up of players for a Lance I would like to see them play and how they deport themselves on the Battlefield. We can talk about statistics Ad nauseum (although I would rather hope that we can avoid the topic for the most part) but I like to see Honourable play, fighting spirit and a general intent that are hard to quantify with numbers.

If they ever bring out a statistic for "How much fun you're having" of course.......

Edited by DoctorJest, 13 July 2012 - 02:36 AM.