361 replies to this topic

[Grey Weasel]

Turbo, on 12 June 2012 - 11:44 PM, said:

How about just showing average xp earned in battles, that would be a much more individual indication of skill rather than win rate or KDR. As a player of WOT and several mech games, i understand how kdr is negated by how many times ive knocked people down to 10% health or less only to have somebody get the kill shot. As previously stated win rate is too dependant on your team to be considered an individual stat.

This is especially true in a game that depends on lights and support units to light up, and soften up, the other team. The best scouts aren't getting the most kills, and fire support (my favored role) isn't likely to be, either.

[Zardnaar]

It kinda matters when it comes to clan recruiting and takig unknown players into your platoons and team games. However they should be strict on trolling posts in regards to sttas and probably have the optioon of keeping them hidden.

[podcat]

DoctorJest, on 13 July 2012 - 02:26 AM, said:

I've lost count of the games where I've had my bottom roundly kicked despite playing my heart out but my point was that if I were to pick a line-up of players for a Lance I would like to see them play and how they deport themselves on the Battlefield. We can talk about statistics Ad nauseum (although I would rather hope that we can avoid the topic for the most part) but I like to see Honourable play, fighting spirit and a general intent that are hard to quantify with numbers.

this touches onto something pretty important as well. you need to make sure your team is on the same page and used to working with each other. I have a few friends with 1800-2000 efficiency that are really good, but when I platoon with them the guy who is best (by a wide margin) we work the worst together, it got so bad that we stopped playing together because our styles just didnt mix. I'm a very aggressive player, where as he is more of a ninja, never wanting to expose himself to danger etc. Finding players for a lance that you mesh well with is going to be the most important thing for winning.

Zardnaar, on 13 July 2012 - 02:54 AM, said:

It kinda matters when it comes to clan recruiting and takig unknown players into your platoons and team games. However they should be strict on trolling posts in regards to sttas and probably have the optioon of keeping them hidden.

tbh just keeping stats hidden for a player below X number of games should be a pretty good step

Edited by podcat, 13 July 2012 - 02:59 AM.

[Grey Weasel]

hornet331, on 13 June 2012 - 02:04 AM, said:

Last but not least, a pure pvp centric game without stats is basically useless... why do you want to play a pvp game when you can't compare yourself to others, thats thee whole point of pvp games.

I'm here to win/defend planets, maybe someday while in a house or merc company. I'm not here to wave my stats at others and call them noobs or whiners or losers. Not everyone comes to this game because it is pvp. A lot of us come here because it is Battletech.

[Sean von Steinike]

Grey Weasel, on 13 July 2012 - 03:01 AM, said:

I'm here to win/defend planets, maybe someday while in a house or merc company. I'm not here to wave my stats at others and call them noobs or whiners or losers. Not everyone comes to this game because it is pvp. A lot of us come here because it is Battletech.

So true. I barely even look at my stats even when available in pvp games. I play because it is fun, play to win, not to wave my e-peen around like some loser that has nothing else of note in their life. Nope, all I tend to see is anuses talking down at everyone, shouting obscenities on vent, yelling at new players and driving them away from the game all because these a-holes are worried about stats.

[Foxmoan]

I... I just cant take it anymore. I literally cant even read this thread fast enough to catch up with all the new posts filled with WoT based hate and elitism and frankly, I dont even know why I still wanna post but Im just gonna get this out there and rid myself of this. Can none of you stop and consider a compromise? Sure, stats can be fun but from what i can see here is that some of the more general stats like W/L are the problem, and ya know what? they are. Stats are good, even when public, but dont ever generalize them. have stats like "Most often run mech" and various accuracy stats, along with a "Most accurate weapon" stat or class specific stats like number of enemies scouted or ally saving fire support LRM volleys fired. Little stats like average run speed and distance per match and even C-Bills earned is good to just for kicks, but you cant keep an over arcing stat like W/L ratio in a team based game and take it seriously, you just cant. I cant tell you how many times Id be playing a game, and ill be honest, im not great at a lot of them but sometimes, ill have a REALLY good run and just do awesome, but still loose because the rest of my team is a bunch of lemmings who cant stand on a bloody point if you glue there feet to the floor. I personally did well, great even but it still shows as a loss on my record, because of things out of my control. Frankly, with this being a free to play game as it is, after launch there will be a HUGE influx of new players that probably know nothing of battletech or even how a game like this should be played, and not only that, add on that maybe at best only 10% of all online game players ever even bother playing as a team, even on team based games so a big blanket stat like W/L is just a poor idea because it is something that is, quite frankly, out of your control. YOU are just one person. YOU cannot win by yourself, especially if you actually happen to be playing agenst a coordinated team. YOU by yourself mean NOTHING in your TEAMS win. Keep stats, make them public, but by the blood of Kerensky be smart about it!

*sighs heavily* Now... Im leaving this thread. Once again I have a lot to think about playing a game I once held such high hopes for because of how far a community can fall just because of something soo stupid as this. Already im beginning to feel I just wont be able to enjoy myself playing here because of how much people worry about things that are soo damnned stupid and starting to think I shouldn't bother, and thats coming form someone who has played the MW games AND the tabletop for years, going soo far as investing in the Legendary pack, because I thought that for once, just once, that things could be different and people could be civil.

Edited by Foxmoan, 13 July 2012 - 03:26 AM.

[Lettuce Prey]

the problem with WOT stats is that there is no distinction between random matches, and the matches as part of a chosen team.

maybe that distinction could be made here IF stats are going to be kept at all, and especially if they are going to be public.

[Freakiie]

So Fox. If you play 12vs12 and EVERY match take care of half the enemy team single handedly, do you really think you'll have the same win rate as the guy that afks in his base every match? Of course not!

Just because this is a team based game does not mean you have NO influence. If you have no influence, we might as well remove your mech from the field and the team with 11 players should get just as much wins as the 12 player team. You really think that's the case?

The thing people have to understand is that you can't win EVERY match for your team. A good player however will win more matches for his team than a bad player. It's not the matches we couldn't influence WR talks about, it's the matches where we could. A good player will win those matches for his team and a bad player will mess up and get destroyed. There is a reason why nobody has 100% WR in WoT.

I digress from the original point of this thread, but I've gotten sick and tired of people claiming your WR is random because it's a teamgame and therefore you have no influence on the outcome of the match. It's also always the same example. I had one awesome match, but we lost! It's the proof! Well I can bet of your awesome matches you won more than you lost, same goes for matches when you blew up in 10 seconds. Bet you lost those more often than you won them.

[Bodha]

Basilhare, on 13 July 2012 - 01:14 AM, said:

I think there should be an option to keep them private and also disallow any kind of XVM outcome predictor...nothing more depressing than being told you only have a 12% chance to win the game....

actually i perk up when i see that and usually set about winning those matches just to prove xvm wrong. In the past week I can think of 4 matches with only a 5% chance per xvm that I won.

Freakiie, on 13 July 2012 - 03:28 AM, said:

So Fox. If you play 12vs12 and EVERY match take care of half the enemy team single handedly, do you really think you'll have the same win rate as the guy that afks in his base every match? Of course not!

Just because this is a team based game does not mean you have NO influence. If you have no influence, we might as well remove your mech from the field and the team with 11 players should get just as much wins as the 12 player team. You really think that's the case?

The thing people have to understand is that you can't win EVERY match for your team. A good player however will win more matches for his team than a bad player. It's not the matches we couldn't influence WR talks about, it's the matches where we could. A good player will win those matches for his team and a bad player will mess up and get destroyed. There is a reason why nobody has 100% WR in WoT.

I digress from the original point of this thread, but I've gotten sick and tired of people claiming your WR is random because it's a teamgame and therefore you have no influence on the outcome of the match. It's also always the same example. I had one awesome match, but we lost! It's the proof! Well I can bet of your awesome matches you won more than you lost, same goes for matches when you blew up in 10 seconds. Bet you lost those more often than you won them.

these same ppl are usually sports fans and fail to notice that professional teams don't just pick random ppl. They pick ppl they know make a difference. Be that guy. Make a difference.

[Bodha]

Lettuce Prey, on 13 July 2012 - 03:22 AM, said:

the problem with WOT stats is that there is no distinction between random matches, and the matches as part of a chosen team.

maybe that distinction could be made here IF stats are going to be kept at all, and especially if they are going to be public.

Now is something I can get behind. I know for a fact that my win rate in WoT is higher than it was pre clan war participation. I also know that if I platoon outside clan war with a few of my better friends we can usually maintain around a 65-70% win rate. However solo I usually hover around 55-62%. tank tracker shows me usually bit above but not much b/c of clan wars and tank company participation.

Breaking out stats to show w/l rates based upon whether you are grouped and what size group would be more specific. Still this can be potentially gamed by counting in together with a few friends.

Foxmoan, on 13 July 2012 - 03:15 AM, said:

I... I just cant take it anymore. I literally cant even read this thread fast enough to catch up with all the new posts filled with WoT based hate and elitism and frankly, I dont even know why I still wanna post but Im just gonna get this out there and rid myself of this. Can none of you stop and consider a compromise? Sure, stats can be fun but from what i can see here is that some of the more general stats like W/L are the problem, and ya know what? they are. Stats are good, even when public, but dont ever generalize them. have stats like "Most often run mech" and various accuracy stats, along with a "Most accurate weapon" stat or class specific stats like number of enemies scouted or ally saving fire support LRM volleys fired. Little stats like average run speed and distance per match and even C-Bills earned is good to just for kicks, but you cant keep an over arcing stat like W/L ratio in a team based game and take it seriously, you just cant. I cant tell you how many times Id be playing a game, and ill be honest, im not great at a lot of them but sometimes, ill have a REALLY good run and just do awesome, but still loose because the rest of my team is a bunch of lemmings who cant stand on a bloody point if you glue there feet to the floor. I personally did well, great even but it still shows as a loss on my record, because of things out of my control. Frankly, with this being a free to play game as it is, after launch there will be a HUGE influx of new players that probably know nothing of battletech or even how a game like this should be played, and not only that, add on that maybe at best only 10% of all online game players ever even bother playing as a team, even on team based games so a big blanket stat like W/L is just a poor idea because it is something that is, quite frankly, out of your control. YOU are just one person. YOU cannot win by yourself, especially if you actually happen to be playing agenst a coordinated team. YOU by yourself mean NOTHING in your TEAMS win. Keep stats, make them public, but by the blood of Kerensky be smart about it!

*sighs heavily* Now... Im leaving this thread. Once again I have a lot to think about playing a game I once held such high hopes for because of how far a community can fall just because of something soo stupid as this. Already im beginning to feel I just wont be able to enjoy myself playing here because of how much people worry about things that are soo damnned stupid and starting to think I shouldn't bother, and thats coming form someone who has played the MW games AND the tabletop for years, going soo far as investing in the Legendary pack, because I thought that for once, just once, that things could be different and people could be civil.

may i humbly suggest you don't look at game discussion threads. Avoid any lengthy threads in particular... and ignore in game chat as much as possible. Seriously. Oh and find yourself a few friends to run with. I find running solo is much more frustrating in regards to the random chatter. If you run with a team you will likely be able to get on ventrilo or teamspeak with them and just do your thing.

[Foxmoan]

Freakiie, on 13 July 2012 - 03:28 AM, said:

So Fox. If you play 12vs12 and EVERY match take care of half the enemy team single handedly, do you really think you'll have the same win rate as the guy that afks in his base every match? Of course not!

Just because this is a team based game does not mean you have NO influence. If you have no influence, we might as well remove your mech from the field and the team with 11 players should get just as much wins as the 12 player team. You really think that's the case?

The thing people have to understand is that you can't win EVERY match for your team. A good player however will win more matches for his team than a bad player. It's not the matches we couldn't influence WR talks about, it's the matches where we could. A good player will win those matches for his team and a bad player will mess up and get destroyed. There is a reason why nobody has 100% WR in WoT.

I digress from the original point of this thread, but I've gotten sick and tired of people claiming your WR is random because it's a teamgame and therefore you have no influence on the outcome of the match. It's also always the same example. I had one awesome match, but we lost! It's the proof! Well I can bet of your awesome matches you won more than you lost, same goes for matches when you blew up in 10 seconds. Bet you lost those more often than you won them.

Ya know what? your right. I will admit I was a bit harsh in saying that you have no influence but really, ive never played WoT myself (for some reason it just wont run on my pc despite it being good enough to run the recommended specs of this game) but I remember when TF2 became free to play, it was just bad man. for months there it just did not matter how good I did, I won only 2 matches in a good 3 months of playing 4 nights a week for about 2-3 hours each. Sure, id get plenty of easy kills, but because my team was just soo awful, it didnt matter. i actually quit playing tf2 for awhile, only picking it back up again maybe a month ago due to having other games to play but my point stands. I am ALL for having public stats kept and shown off, but some of them like general W/L should not be used to determine ho good someone is, and instead people should take the time to look at more meaningful stats.

I guess that means im pro-stats, but i just wish that it was implemented better. Both by the devs, and by the players.

[Lettuce Prey]

Foxmoan, on 13 July 2012 - 03:37 AM, said:

I guess that means im pro-stats, but i just wish that it was implemented better. Both by the devs, and by the players.

speaking of being implemented by the player.

using the WOT example again, during that few moments after the battle when the final role call is displayed each player could click on boxes next to each name of a player they thought deserved recognition.
just for the time that is list is displayed, and no time after that.
a heat of the moment chance to praise someone anonymously.

that would take care of some of those situations where people did something worth attention and the team win or loss would have no bearing on the opinion of the other participants in that specific battle.

and for sure you would be allowed to vote for someone on the other team.

this comes to mind for people that want to role play in MWO when the clans arrive.

i was thinking of complicating the idea too much with different categories, and i think these might be a bit too much, so just a click in a box next to the names of those people you liked in the battle, and then those little ticks of acknowledgment would be the "STATS" that would be kept rather than any of these additional ideas i had;

MVP : most valuable player

MHP : most honorable player

MOP : most outrages player

MEP : most entertaining player

MLP : most lucky player

MIWTWOMTP : most i wish they were on my team player

RPQOTDP : role playing queen of the day player

[Zuesacoatl]

You can already see the trend of people who are going to be stats nazis and ruin the game and fun aspect for others if stats are added into the game. I am so happy I run my own team and know what i have to deal with, not because of numbers on a screen, but because I have played with them. Take us for granted cause of stats and see where you end up is all I have to say.

[Congzilla]

The win rate stat in WoT has always been totally meaningless. I can't count how many games I have had 5+ kills and ended up losing the match. The stat should have always been kill / loss since you can't help who you get stuck with in public matches. Only the "clan" battles should be counted as win / loss for the clan stats.

[Kell Draygo]

If XP gains are balanced in each match, like assisting a team (Scouting, NARCing, etc) will nab you just as much XP as killing someone, then maybe they should provide an average XP/Match stat. This way people can see which players are actively participating and who may just be leeching. Otherwise, stats like K/D and Win Rate is useless and even counter-productive. However, if all those stats are kept private and optional, then that would be a nice stat tracker for each MechWarrior to have and to see what they need to improve on.

Edited by Kell Draygo, 13 July 2012 - 05:33 AM.

[princemachiavelli]

Stats in WoT are legit. Once you get over a couple of thousand games, you really can't argue with the law of large numbers. Yes, there is a chance that you will have an AFK player, or a team of lemmings, or the other team will have a super platoon, or MM screws you over. But the other team has exactly the same chance of that happening. Win rate demonstrates a trend for your performance, which includes all those variables. Hit ratio and average damage per match are (in my view) better indicators of tank by tank performance. Personally, I have watched my win rate slowly improving as I become a better player. This is regardless of all the 'influxes' of 'noob players' and so on, as mentioned above.

So I don't think people can discount stats as a reflection of performance. What does annoy the crap out of me is when people refer to stats before a game. Good players will play badly and bad players will sometimes play well. Should they be private? Well, that comes down to whether the community is better served by knowing who is generally a good player, or having the peace of mind of knowing you won't get called a noob etc until the battle has started.

Edited by princemachiavelli, 13 July 2012 - 06:49 AM.

[DoctorJest]

Grey Weasel, on 13 July 2012 - 03:01 AM, said:

I'm here to win/defend planets, maybe someday while in a house or merc company. I'm not here to wave my stats at others and call them noobs or whiners or losers. Not everyone comes to this game because it is pvp. A lot of us come here because it is Battletech.

This is my position.

I've been playing Tabletop since 1988 (on and off) as well as all the P.C games up to the end of the Mercenaries series......I am here to drive large stompy robots about and perhaps meet some like-minded individuals to have fun with.

Stats have a quantifiable value and for better or worse there are some games which as so thoroughly saturated with their dribble that a large quotient of the fun in said game is dulled and muted before you even begin - WoT has certainly reached that juncture in my experience and succinctly that is why I hope that MWO stats are for private viewing only, or for those you wish to share them with.

Quote

You can already see the trend of people who are going to be stats nazis and ruin the game and fun aspect for others if stats are added into the game. I am so happy I run my own team and know what i have to deal with, not because of numbers on a screen, but because I have played with them. Take us for granted cause of stats and see where you end up is all I have to say.

If I've given the impression that I am a "Stats Nazi" then I apologise for being a little unclear. I am not in favour of publicly divulged stats and would only like them present in any sense so I can improve my own game. Playing with a team and being used to their little foibles/idiosyncrasies is, I agree, FAR more important than an after-market mod telling you the exact percentile chance of a given match's outcome.

Quote

you really can't argue with the law of large numbers

Absolutely. As a tool for introspective self-improvement they are unsurpassed. I would rather by far however, be judged on my integrity and teamwork. Sadly I feel this thread has already tainted people's perspective of me.

[Dozer]

I think at the end of the day the statistics themselves aren't the problems, it's the statistical illiteracy of the people using them. They see a figure and don't actually understand the basis for it, yet they judge people against it. They see a number but not how or why it manifest.

Take something as simple as an 'average'. Is that to be the arithmetic mean, median or mode? Should it be a simple moving average, a cumulative moving average, a weighted moving average or an exponentially moving average? Should it be smoothed? Or is it better to look at a moving median average? The list goes on.

Would it surprise you that most people off the top of their head couldn't tell you? And yet some here strongly insist that even something as 'simple' as an average should be used to illustrate/predict performance in order to improve their gaming experience. If you don't understand what made the result, how the results interact, what the independent and dependent variables are and their strength and reliability etc then how on earth can you hope to make an informed decision? Simply put, you can't, thus the veracity of statistics in this context is questionable (at best). In statistical terms the p-value (statistical significance) is likely to be astronomically high i.e. no relationship can be found that can be reliably used to predict future outcomes.

So again I ask, why bother? It's a virtual game, not real life.

Edited by Dozer, 13 July 2012 - 06:48 AM.

[Bloody Moon]

Since from the posts it seems people still fear that the stats will somehow summon up all the elitist players to flame them i thought maybe i should mention a fact:

People will be elitists with or without stats, if there are no visible stats then some will mention post counts or how long they've played MWO or BT games in general to prove they are above someone else, nothing can stop this.

[Vyviel]

I want stats so atleast I know what to expect and I wont rage when I see someone with terrible stats doing something retarded.

If I dont know that they are a terrible player I will expect them not to fail then be sorely dissapointed as they shoot rounds into the ground for fun or team kill our squad =P