233 replies to this topic

[Helbrecht]

first you need to understand tabletop and how it doesnt translate here.

clan pilots-vs- Innersphere pilots
3/4 4/5
Obviouslly we all dont have a gunnery piloting skill attach to us as base so we can throw that out the window 0 for 1 clans being over powered.


Omnimechs-vs- Battlemechs
Welp since every mech here is a omnimech (sorta) were now 0 for 2 for clans being over powered

Clan Tech-vs- Innersphere Tech

Yes the clans on tabletop were OP to an extent but the reasons they are DO NOT translate here at all here are the reason they were over powered

1: Speed: Clan mech for the majority move at 5/8 or better ( 86 kph for those not familiar with TT Speeds) this gave them a good advantage over slower IS mechs faster you move harder to hit on tabletop.

2: Clan Weapon Tonnage: Yes some clan weapons are lighter and smaller crit sizes than the IS version most are a ton or less lighter. the biggest disparity is the Clan guass clan ultra20 and LBX 20. with these being 3 tons lighter. infact outside of the clan erpp for dmg which give 5 more than the is erppc most clan weapon are 2 dmg or less. and since the newer anti boating mechanics thier implementing. i really dont see this as a massive balance issue.


The Real reason clans were over power was 4 things coming togather to give a massvie advatage to clans on table top. they were

Clan pilots+clan pulse+tcomp+speed= OP

We dont have genetic bred players
We dont have weapons that grant a negative 2 to hit
we dont have a computer that grants a negative 1 to hit
and all mechs can be fast.

the THREE big weapons that need to be watched are CLPL CERPPC CMPL. balance those three and youll be fine. thier are finer points to be discussed im sure such as FF ES and CDS all being smaller but those small advantages really give A GROSS advantage to them.

[MrZakalwe]

Clan endo steel
Clan Double heat sinks
Clan LRMs
Clan ERPPCs
Clan Ferro Fibrous armour

These are how the world ends.

[Fishbrane]

This may not be canon but from a business standpoint the most logical thing to do is allow your players to spend MC to retrofit I.S. chassis with clan tech.

It's not P2W because you can always buy a clan chassis with cbills.

The playing field stays level and PGI generates more revenue.

Fantasy battle tech lore is fun, but MWO is a business first and this makes cents.

[Helbrecht]

the point i was tring to make was that the reason why the clans are OP on tabletop dont translate here very well. Yes clan guns hit slightly harder, yes clan guns are more compact, yes clan FF and ES is 7 instead of 14 all these are true and give TT clans a nice edge but here in this enviroment it something that can be easily balance by changing the range and dmg.

[OneEyed Jack]

Speed is a big deal. Not only can the Clans do it better, but usually lighter, since nearly any Clan mech can reasonably use an XL.
Clan FF/ES take less space, allowing more weight-saving by taking both (or in some cases only 1 where there was neither before), or taking 1 to save on crits, which a major limiting factor for larger IS mechs.
Clan DHS take less crits, making it easier to fit more of them.

Meaning you have more crits and more tonnage available to fit weapons that are lighter, smaller, hit harder at longer ranges for less heat, and have better heat management.

Take the C/ERML. The same range and nearly the same damage is a IS/LL, for 1/5 the tonnage and less heat. The Dasher-D at 20 tons carries 5 of them and can manage the heat.

[Sybreed]

lol, you think we had an LRM apocalypse? wait until clan LRM 20s. 100 LRMs in your face will be the easiest feat to do for clan mechs.

[Stoicblitzer]

PGI is great at balancing. Why would the clans be OP?

[Drasari]

Just to add to the list....Clan XL's taking up less the same space as IS-STD.

[Lightfoot]

MrZakalwe, on 17 August 2013 - 02:40 PM, said:

Clan endo steel= 7 crits
Clan Double heat sinks= 2crits
Clan LRMs= smaller and weigh half as much, no minimum range
Clan ERPPCs= 15 damage
Clan Ferro Fibrous armour= 7 crits

These are how the world ends.

Clan XL Engines= 10 crits
Clan ER Medium Lasers 350 plus meters.
ssrm4 and 6= 350 meters
Omni mechs, I suppose Clan mechs will get one or two omni slots in MWO.
UAC20
LBX20
Clan Gauss Rifle= 12 tons.

Basically Clan tech just does 50-100% more damage. Clanners like risky mechs though, low armor, high speed, high damage.

[General Taskeen]

Lightfoot, on 17 August 2013 - 04:15 PM, said:

LBX20

That can be crossed if LB-X stays with its truly bad functionality. It'll be the first thing to strip off a Clan Mech and replace with Gauss and ER PPC. UAC's will be OP with the bad format of 2 full damage shell functionality and at the same time frustrating with virtual rolling dice jams. So basically that reduces Clan Mechs to using Lasers, Gauss, and ER PPC, basically exactly what we have now.

[Strum Wealh]

Lightfoot, on 17 August 2013 - 04:15 PM, said:

Clanners like risky mechs though, low armor, high speed, high damage.

Actually, many of the original 16 Clan OmniMechs were actually fairly well-armored, in addition to generally being faster than their IS counterparts.

The Daishi carries 19 tons of Standard Armor (99% of maximum).
The Gladiator carries 13.5 tons of Clan FF Armor (88% of maximum).
The Masakari carries 13.5 tons of Clan FF Armor (98% of maximum).
The Man O' War carries 11 tons of Clan FF Armor (85% of maximum).
The Mad Cat carries 12 tons of Clan FF Armor (100% of maximum).
The Thor carries 9.5 tons of Clan FF Armor (84% of maximum).
The Loki carries 8 tons of Standard Armor (61% of maximum).
The Vulture carries 8.5 tons of Clan FF Armor (81% of maximum).
The Ryoken carries 9.5 tons of Clan FF Armor (98% of maximum).
The Black Hawk carries 10 tons of Standard Armor (95% of maximum).
The Fenris carries 7.5 tons of Clan FF Armor (94% of maximum).
The Dragonfly carries 7 tons of Clan FF Armor (98% of maximum).
The Puma carries 6 tons of Clan FF Armor (97% of maximum).
The Uller carries 4 tons of Clan FF Armor (72% of maximum).
The Koshi carries 3.5 tons of Clan FF Armor (75% of maximum).
The Dasher carries 2 tons of Clan FF Armor (55% of maximum).

Outside of the Loki and the three lightest TRO 3050 OmniMechs, the vast majority of the Clans' initial Invasion OmniMechs are at or very near their maximum armor loads.
In fact, only two of the 16 carry less than 70% of their maximum armor load: the 65-ton Loki (61%) and the 20-ton Dasher (55%) - with the former devoting ~43% of its total mass to OmniTech pod space (allowing for substantial and flexible armaments) and the latter carries a massive engine (for a base maximum speed of ~162 kph, going to ~216 kph with MASC activated).

----------

IMO, one of the better ways to "balance" OmniMechs (both Clan-built and, eventually, IS-built) against non-OmniTech BattleMechs is to implement the canonical OmniMech restrictions (described in more detail on pages 47-57 of TechManual).

• An OmniMech's internal structure type (standard, endo-steel, etc) and location/distribution of criticals cannot be changed.
  
• An OmniMech's engine type (standard, XL, etc), rating (250, 300, etc), and location/distribution of criticals cannot be changed.
  
• An OmniMech's armor type (standard, FF, etc), amount (total tonnage/number of armor points), distribution (how much armor is where), and location/distribution of criticals cannot be changed.
  
• The locations and types for the cockpit and gyro may not be changed.
  
• The presence and location(s) of MASC and TSM cannot be changed; neither may be added to an OmniMech that wasn't originally built with it, and neither can be moved into a set of criticals other than what they originally occupied (for example, it may not be moved from the Left-Torso to the Right-Torso).
  
• The type of heat sinks (standard, DHS, etc) that are equipped on an OmniMech cannot be changed.
  
• Weapons and other pieces of equipment, additional Heat Sinks, Jump Jets, and other items may have been built-into the OmniMech as hard-wired "fixed items". Examples of such fixed components include the Flamer on the Adder/"Puma" (mounted in the Center-Torso), the Medium Lasers on the Avatar (mounted in the Center-Torso), and five of the Jump Jets on the Summoner/"Thor" (one mounted in the Center-Torso, the other four filling the legs). Such "fixed items" may not be either moved to another location on the OmniMech nor completely removed from said OmniMech.

In exchange, each open critical slot could be a non-type-specific hardpoint, or each configuration (that is, "variant") could be assigned a number of non-type-specific hardpoints (based on its initial loadout).
This would allow PGI to implement multiple OmniMechs of the same weight while also keeping them relatively unique (so that there is a reason to take "OmniMech X" over "OmniMech Y" beyond "best geometry/hitboxes").

The above restrictions are a large part of what keeps each OmniMech unique in spite of their relatively flexible weapon and pod-mounted equpment loads (e.g. why a Blood Asp might be used in place of a Kingfisher and vice versa, as well as why the former exists in the first place despite being predated by the latter by 172 years in-universe, and why OmniMechs of the same tonnage can exist without just being "X-ton gunbags with different skins").

[FupDup]

Lightfoot, on 17 August 2013 - 04:15 PM, said:

Clan ER Medium Lasers 350 plus meters.

Actually it's 450 meters for the Clan ER Medium Laser. It's identical in range to the Inner Sphere Large Laser, with lower heat, lower weight, fewer slots, and only a tiny bit of lower damage.

[Monky]

MrZakalwe, on 17 August 2013 - 02:40 PM, said:

Clan endo steel
Clan Double heat sinks
Clan LRMs
Clan ERPPCs
Clan Ferro Fibrous armour

These are how the world ends.

Clan XL engines and Clan Gauss as well. Oh what's that? you took out my side torso? too bad that doesn't mean squat.

[Blackadder]

OP, your statements have no relevance in relation to MWO. none of the things you list, is actually taken into account when looking at MWO game play. Your attempting to balance a FPS shooter, based on rpg & game elements from the TT which do not exist in any fashion in MWO. The things that are taken into account, are the reduced size, critical slots,weight savings, improved performance and damage of clan tech. clan tech by its very nature is superior on the individual level vs IS tech. using it is a direct boost to all the things that matter in MWO. Clan mechs if designed from TT values will do more damage, generally go faster, are better at managing heat, amongst other factors, excluding some of the light mechs. Even then i expect what will happen is that PGI will create different engine sizes for the variants so they are not all the same speed.

There is no way to balance clan tech in MWO without significantly altering it from TT values. The Clan ER medium laser is a perfect example of how powerful it is. ML is currently 5 damage per 4 heat at 270 meters, for 1 ton weight. Clan ER ML is 7 damage per 5 heat at 450 meters, for 1 ton if copied directly from TT. If they give it the same heat as IS ML, its 7 damage per 4 heat. people complain about lights now, wait till they see clan lights running around with 4-6 of these with a range that rivals most IS heavy energy weapons, for 1/5th or less of the tonnage requirements.

People are saying clan mechs carry XL engines, but that does not take into account clan tech here either. unless they change clan XL engines, clan Xl mechs will be as good as IS mechs with standard engines, because it requires two torso sections to be destroyed for a clan mech to go down.

[Iskareot]

As long as we have a choice to play in a CLAN drop match or a PUG drop match this is all fine... BUT if there is no choice in being competitive or not... and playing against a CLAN now sucks if you are pugging. At no time is a Comm driven group of people that play together often and well, knowing builds of each other and strats EQUAL to a fresh joining PUG that does not even know where the forward key is. This is a fact.. not an opinion. Im all for this. but make sure this is CLAN V CLAN not CLAN v PUG so we can rick roll them into Hell in 10 mins... matches. This game will lose A LOT of people if they force this onto PUG players that spend money. Example.. I have spent 100.00 on this game so far. If when launched I have no choice at times to PUG and play against CLANS the whole time , this will last about a week. Some of us play solo and we will not have time to clan up every match.

[aseth]

They could also make Clan drops of two stars against three Inner Sphere lances. 10 vs 12.

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

Hmmmm.


*Looks at PGI's Track Record for balancing anything ever*
*Looks at TT base stats for Clan anything ever*

Edited by mwhighlander, 17 August 2013 - 08:19 PM.

[Helbrecht]

few things

1: dropping uneven numbers in any game is never fair

2: your absalutly right all clan gear is lighter and more compact but your forgetting one thing in your argument. MWO hardpoint system you cannot carry more guns than it allows. and with the new boating mechanics and alpha penalties and clan weapons running hotter i really dont see the end all. now surviabilty yes untill extra light engines come out the clan mech will be more survivable to side torso deaths.

3: Blackadder you need to look at weapon values bro youll see that most MWO weapons are fairly close to Table Top values. your absalutly right the clan er medium is better than the is medium that why the IS developed thier own ermed it is less dmg same heat and slightly less range. the hardpoihnt system is gonna hamper the clan mechs fairly well will thier need to balancing made? Absalutly i will never say thier wont need to be im just saying that the massive boogeyman of the clans doesnt translate to this fps/sim/mmo type thing thier doing here.

[Helbrecht]

and we just got sent to the different section because the moderators are ******** and actually dont understand balance.

[Blackadder]

Helbrecht, on 17 August 2013 - 08:35 PM, said:

few things
3: Blackadder you need to look at weapon values bro youll see that most MWO weapons are fairly close to Table Top values. your absalutly right the clan er medium is better than the is medium that why the IS developed thier own ermed it is less dmg same heat and slightly less range. the hardpoihnt system is gonna hamper the clan mechs fairly well will thier need to balancing made? Absalutly i will never say thier wont need to be im just saying that the massive boogeyman of the clans doesnt translate to this fps/sim/mmo type thing thier doing here.

Your ignoring what i stated, in an attempt to try to create some kind of relevance to Tabletop. tabletop does not even enter into the equation. It has no bearing or value, beyond being the initial values at which PGI chose to code into the game. If PGI uses the same starting point for clan mechs, they will be 25-75% more powerful with minimal downsides, when compared to current in game IS mechs unless PGI puts in some significant restrictions.

If you want to argue that clan tech is going to be fine, then you need to argue it from the point of view of mech warrior online, the FPS computer game, not battletech the Tabletop game, because MWO does not use the majority of rules and design concepts from battletech. There are no pilot skill checks, there are no hit modifiers, there is no heat penalty or anything else that mitigates power of the battlemechs that has crossed over from TT to MWO.