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Why The Clans Are Not Gonna Be Overpowered


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#161 CyclonerM

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 03:31 AM

View PostGremlich Johns, on 20 September 2013 - 02:16 PM, said:

While there is no evidence to patently indicate that Clan tech will be able to be mounted on IS mechs, based on PGI's past performance, it will be allowed. This beggars the question, why bother bringing in the Clans if that's gonna happen.

For myself, in previous MW games, when there was cross-teching permitted in game servers, I did not play in those servers. The same will happen if cross-teching is allowed in PGI's servers and I won't play. It's just a game and yes, I probably am part of a fairly small segment of the MW gamer community. I won't be missed. (<-- not a signal for anybody to troll so watch your tone)


Well, i am a Clanner and will join a Clan Wolf faction,so will have Omni-mechs, anyway if there will be cross-tech i will have to put 4 CLRM20 in my CLPT-C1, otherwise it will become less than useless ;)

#162 Mr Blonde

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 04:37 AM

The key problem is the IS mech customization. This has been discussed on other forums as well. Fact is you can customize IS mechs in canon. However this takes lots of time and money, and available parts. As it stands, IS mechs are beyond Clan omni tech. Omnimechs can replace their arms/side torsos, they have 4-5 options in this time period. All those are stock and cannot be altered. They can't switch out CT stuff or engine without screwing everything up. You certainly can't change to endo steel, which would be about as easy as grafting adamantium to Wolverine's skeleton, after removing it from his body, and then re-inserting it. Not something that can be accomplished with one button click. There should be a penalty in C-bills and downtime for switching systems out on IS mechs, andit should be a painful one (cumulative, so stripping the mech and rebuilding from scratch costs you 2 days of downtime and a fortune in C-bills, no MC option. No transition to or from Endo-steel, you buy the mech with it from the manufacturer stock, or you don't). Then Clan omni tech would be seen for what it was in canon, a revolution and a technological marvel. As of now it's a step backward.

As far as the OP of Clan mechs, you should have to switch to Clan faction (at a more significant penalty than switching IS factions) to use, and any Clan equipment does not transfer with you if you switch factions again (Clanners do not own their mechs). IS learned to use it after a while, the cost of refit was astronomical. In addition you could only use what was salvaged from combat. When it's gone, it's gone.

I have no faith in PGI to implement Clans anywhere close to canon, nor do I think they care in the least. I pray that I am mistaken, and that I will be forced to eat my words.

#163 Autobot9000

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 06:15 AM

What Bryan Ekman tells you in this interview is just another weak justification for the inevitable nerf of clan tech. You can argue with far-fetched, soft arguments all day long to justify, that clan tech needs to change for a video game. Saying the inventors are sorry for their mistake in hindsight still doesn't make the weakening of the clan tech more true to the story. Battle Tech is Battle Tech is Battle Tech. You can't change history as it happened. MWO isn't going to be truthful to Battle Tech and hence true fans will find it cheesy, if they nerf clan tech. Introducing clan tech into a game, where people are playing both IS and Clans is and will always stay an oxymoron as long as balance is the goal - no matter what weak excuse they come up with.

#164 Guido

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 11:14 AM

View PostMr Blonde, on 21 September 2013 - 04:37 AM, said:

The key problem is the IS mech customization. This has been discussed on other forums as well. Fact is you can customize IS mechs in canon. However this takes lots of time and money, and available parts. As it stands, IS mechs are beyond Clan omni tech. Omnimechs can replace their arms/side torsos, they have 4-5 options in this time period. All those are stock and cannot be altered. They can't switch out CT stuff or engine without screwing everything up. You certainly can't change to endo steel, which would be about as easy as grafting adamantium to Wolverine's skeleton, after removing it from his body, and then re-inserting it. Not something that can be accomplished with one button click. There should be a penalty in C-bills and downtime for switching systems out on IS mechs, andit should be a painful one (cumulative, so stripping the mech and rebuilding from scratch costs you 2 days of downtime and a fortune in C-bills, no MC option. No transition to or from Endo-steel, you buy the mech with it from the manufacturer stock, or you don't). Then Clan omni tech would be seen for what it was in canon, a revolution and a technological marvel. As of now it's a step backward.

As far as the OP of Clan mechs, you should have to switch to Clan faction (at a more significant penalty than switching IS factions) to use, and any Clan equipment does not transfer with you if you switch factions again (Clanners do not own their mechs). IS learned to use it after a while, the cost of refit was astronomical. In addition you could only use what was salvaged from combat. When it's gone, it's gone.

I have no faith in PGI to implement Clans anywhere close to canon, nor do I think they care in the least. I pray that I am mistaken, and that I will be forced to eat my words.


None of that has anything to do with balance, and I know I haven't come up with anything useful (Not that PGI would listen anyway), but penalties alone won't balance. I don't mind the idea that you take penalties when switching factions, but the fact of the matter is that Wolf's Dragoons handed out plenty of Omni-mechs to the IS houses and outfitted regular IS mechs with clan tech. On top of that, the factories on Marik and in the Free Worlds League were also starting to churn out the Dragoon Omni-mechs to deploy all over the IS.

While that took a year past the initial invasion for all that to happen, technically we're already at the point where we should have heard about the Second Battle for Twycross where Victor and Kai defeat the Jade Falcons, and next month IlKhan Leo Showers is killed by Tyra Miraborg, resulting in a cessation of hostilities for a year and the implementation of what I talked about in the previous paragraph. So Cannon-wise, the IS has clan tech, but the clans don't have any IS tech, because all their tech, even old tech, is more capable than IS tech.

I have no argument about the IS customization being possible as it is, because while it's possible to customize mechs to the degree we have, it is supposed to take time. Justin Allard's Yen-Lo-Wang being a perfect example of the time it takes. Unfortunately, that particular part of lore doesn't translate well to the game (just like firing each weapon only once in ten seconds) because either you don't have a time scale, making it moot, or you create a system that penalizes weapon experimentation heavily. Ultimately, the difference between clan omni and the customization we have now, is that clan configurations can change the weapon type that is equipped, while our IS mechs can only change the weapon within the type already slotted to be there.

Edit: And for the record, almost all clan omni-mechs are already fitted with the clan version of endo-steel.

Edited by Guido, 21 September 2013 - 11:16 AM.


#165 Mr Blonde

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 11:49 AM

A good point about Omnimechs switching hardpoints. I am not as sure about the wolf's dragoons business. I am thinking they mostly brought star league and second line equipment. Will have to research this.

#166 CyclonerM

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 11:57 AM

View PostMr Blonde, on 21 September 2013 - 11:49 AM, said:

A good point about Omnimechs switching hardpoints. I am not as sure about the wolf's dragoons business. I am thinking they mostly brought star league and second line equipment. Will have to research this.

I think the Dragoons had some Omnimechs production facility prior to the invasion..

#167 Beef Hands

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 12:02 PM

There are going to be a number of ways clans are going to have to be balanced, and I hope that the Devs will at least release some of the mechs onto a test server and have players put them through the paces before we have a clanpocalypse on our hands.
The best ways I can think to balance the clan tech is through crit space and HP. The clan equivalents of IS tech should take up more space, and have much less health if PGI wants to keep IS tech and IS mechs relevant in the future.

#168 Theodore Laservelt

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 12:15 PM

I think an interesting balance feature might be how Clan pilots are compensated for their performance. Perhaps they might be rewarded more for "fighting honorably". That would include not shooting mechs in the back, not firing/hitting on another clan pilot's opponent (unless they fire/hit you), etc.

Any Clanner could devolve into innersphere style, every man for himself/win at any cost tactics (and they often did in the books, not considering pirates or bandits not worth treating honorably). But being honorable gets you more K-bills.

#169 Guido

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Posted 21 September 2013 - 09:17 PM

View PostMr Blonde, on 21 September 2013 - 11:49 AM, said:

A good point about Omnimechs switching hardpoints. I am not as sure about the wolf's dragoons business. I am thinking they mostly brought star league and second line equipment. Will have to research this.


All the princes did their Dragoon-version-of-trial-of-bloodright testing in a Daishi, for one example, and both Hohiro Kurita and Victor Davion ended up with Daishis to deploy in actual combat for best performances, and due to Kai Allard turning one down so he could pilot the Yen-Lo-Wang.

Edit: The Dragoons also brought clan tech with them, but stashed them in an obscure star system that the IS didn't know about, and before the civil war, Jaime Wolf sent Mackenzie Wolf to retrieve it. That stash included clan omni-mechs and Warships (jumpships with weapons onboard that are capable of orbital bombardments).

View PostCyclonerM, on 21 September 2013 - 11:57 AM, said:

I think the Dragoons had some Omnimechs production facility prior to the invasion..


Blackwell Industries. It was the major reason that the Dragoons asked and gained Outreach, because of the hidden star league factories there that the Dragoons had become aware of at some point. That, along with the schematics that they brought along allowed them to manufacture clan mechs. Blackwell Industries manufactured other mechs as well for sales and profit, but they created omni-mechs and gave them exclusively to the Dragoons. By the Dragoon Civil War, every Dragoon frontline unit (this is excluding sub-contractors and the home guard) had been outfitted with omni mechs or mechs upgraded with clan tech.

Point is, purists who want only cannon cannot actually want cannon if they're against cross-tech, because cross-tech existed. It's equally false saying that the sole reason clan tech is OP is mostly because the pilots are better trained, as a main point of contention is that genetic selection and rigid clan warrior training has produced better pilots than the inner sphere with free-birthing and academy training, even within the clans. The only thing that is true, is that in the cannon/lore, clan weaponry performs ~33% better than IS weapons in range and damage, and clan equipment is twice as efficient in cooling, size, and weight bearing ability. It means that they will have to find some major matchmaking tool or nerf the hell out of clan tech in order to make things balanced.

Edited by Guido, 21 September 2013 - 09:38 PM.


#170 CyclonerM

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 07:11 AM

View PostGuido, on 21 September 2013 - 09:17 PM, said:



Blackwell Industries. It was the major reason that the Dragoons asked and gained Outreach, because of the hidden star league factories there that the Dragoons had become aware of at some point. That, along with the schematics that they brought along allowed them to manufacture clan mechs. Blackwell Industries manufactured other mechs as well for sales and profit, but they created omni-mechs and gave them exclusively to the Dragoons. By the Dragoon Civil War, every Dragoon frontline unit (this is excluding sub-contractors and the home guard) had been outfitted with omni mechs or mechs upgraded with clan tech.

Blackwell Industries, yeah,now i remember. Thanks :)

View PostGuido, on 21 September 2013 - 09:17 PM, said:


Point is, purists who want only cannon cannot actually want cannon if they're against cross-tech, because cross-tech existed.

A purist would say that by 3052 only the most élite units or the princes could actually have some salvaged Clan 'Mechs in their roster. Maintenance is difficult because the Clanners would never be willing to give you the spare parts needed to keep omni-mechs in fighting shape. The only exception are the Wolf's Dragoons, and yeah i hope they will give them the status of playable faction.

#171 Mechsniper

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 07:23 AM

Fear not qq'ing noobl3ts, PGI will no doubt nerf bat clan tech down to airsoft values as they have all useful weapons. Then IS mech will = clan mech will = the firepower of a go cart carried by 100 ton mechs.

#172 Guido

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 10:08 AM

View PostCyclonerM, on 22 September 2013 - 07:11 AM, said:

A purist would say that by 3052 only the most élite units or the princes could actually have some salvaged Clan 'Mechs in their roster. Maintenance is difficult because the Clanners would never be willing to give you the spare parts needed to keep omni-mechs in fighting shape. The only exception are the Wolf's Dragoons, and yeah i hope they will give them the status of playable faction.


Yes, I suppose they would, but it's a weak argument against cross tech because PGI can't declare all IS players as low-end units and merc corps, while declaring all Clan players as frontline trueborn players without any degraza. I'm not saying pass out the Daishis to those IS players, but a CERML or a CLRM20 isn't much of a stretch, maybe clan XLs (clan endo isn't realistic though). Without R&R, there won't be the penalty for the more expensive equipment and harder to replace parts, sure, however it'll still help create balance without going outside the IP (not that PGI is famous for sticking to the IP). Toss in Battlevalue and keep ELO for matchmaking, and there'll be a more balanced game, while not completely alienating or nerfing clan tech for the fanbois.

#173 CyclonerM

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 10:43 AM

View PostGuido, on 22 September 2013 - 10:08 AM, said:


Yes, I suppose they would, but it's a weak argument against cross tech because PGI can't declare all IS players as low-end units and merc corps, while declaring all Clan players as frontline trueborn players without any degraza. I'm not saying pass out the Daishis to those IS players, but a CERML or a CLRM20 isn't much of a stretch, maybe clan XLs (clan endo isn't realistic though). Without R&R, there won't be the penalty for the more expensive equipment and harder to replace parts, sure, however it'll still help create balance without going outside the IP (not that PGI is famous for sticking to the IP). Toss in Battlevalue and keep ELO for matchmaking, and there'll be a more balanced game, while not completely alienating or nerfing clan tech for the fanbois.


They could make only Clan tech and not their 'Mechs available in the black market. I would like a Honor points system to get Omni-mechs in the Clan factions. I know not ALL the Clanners are supposed to be trueborn glorious warriors. Even in the first invading force i think there are freeborns. And actually in my very own roleplay i am a freeborn taken as Bondsman in Clan Wolf, just like Phelan Kell. This little story fits actually quite well in my joining of Clan Wolf Alpha Galaxy :)

#174 WintermuteOmega

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 11:10 AM

I am against mixing Clans and IS Mechs becaue this would kill a lot of immersion for me. I can't see myself having both, IS-Mechs and Omnimechs in my Mechbay.
Maybe in form of a switchable account,where you have your IS-Account and your Clan-Account, both absolutely independent except for your MC's.

I probably won't play claners and i still could be fine with OP Clan-Tech.

Two ideas could balance the tech. For one Claner Tech wil be really expensive. The MadCat is listed with 24 Mil C-bills.
So claners will have to work 3 times as long for their Daishi than the IS for their Atlas. Though i know this comparison is lacking due to the fact that IS still has to refit with Endo+DHS etc. which claners are already equiped with, but still, Mechtech is expansive.

The second possibility to balance OP Claner tech is by lowering Drop Tonnage. As we are waiting (and will be waiting for quite some time) for community warfare, as i see it there will be Tonnage-limitations. When there are IS vs. Claner matches, you could limit IS with 800 Tons and Clan to 500 Tons. Thats at least was how we balanced Claners in good old TT-times. So either you would have significantly less mechs on the field or be overall lighter than the IS counterparts.

Balancing will be a real beast with claners anyhow.

Edited by WintermuteOmega, 22 September 2013 - 01:52 PM.


#175 Guido

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 01:58 PM

View PostWintermuteOmega, on 22 September 2013 - 11:10 AM, said:

I am against mixing Clans and IS Mechs becaue this would kill a lot of immersion for me. I can't see myself having both, IS-Mechs and Omnimechs in my Mechbay.
Maybe in form of a switchable account,where you have your IS-Account and your Clan-Account, both absolutely independent except for your MC's.

I probably won't play claners and i still could be fine with OP Clan-Tech.

Two ideas would could balance the tech. For one Claner Tech wil be really expensive. The MadCat is listed with 24 Mil C-bills.
So claners will have to work 3 times as long for their Daishi than the IS for their Atlas. Though i know this comparison is lacking due to the fact that IS still has to refit with Endo+DHS etc. which claners are already equiped with, but still, Mechtech is expansive.

The second possibility to balance OP Claner tech is by lowering Drop Tonnage. As we are waiting (and will be waiting for quite some time) for community warfare, as i see it there will be Tonnage-limitations. When there are IS vs. Claner matches, you could limit IS with 800 Tons and Clan to 500 Tons. Thats at least was how we balanced Claners in good old TT-times. So either you would have significantly less mechs on the field or be overall lighter than the IS counterparts.

Balancing will be a real beast with claners anyhow.


If you read the last three or four posts, you'll see that cyclone and I agree that IS players shouldn't generally be running around in a Timber wolf or Dire Wolf. I do believe that there should be clan weaponry available to purchase as an IS player because that has anchors in lore and therefore appeals to lore purists, and also allows for a balance of firepower.

While your weight drop limit variation has some merit, doing a Battlevalue system establishes the same outcome but has the added advantage of allowing people to drop with Dire Wolves without penalizing the rest of the team, as the IS will be capable of bringing mechs with enough firepower to duke it out with the clan omni-mechs. Generally the Battlevalue system would create a balance between min/max build players and the weight of the mech they can bring, forcing them to bring lighter mechs with lighter armor in order to push out those customized UAC40 builds and still be capable of getting a match.

Edit for punctuation overload.

Oh, and I'll keep on saying it: High cbill purchase costs do not create balance, period. All that does is make a larger gap between veterans who've played long enough to own and customize their variants and the new players. It has absolutely no bearing on a match. At worst, R&R is introduced back into the game and it drains your funds when you are killed in a match, and then the player runs in a trial mech or another custom mech for replenishing cbills to run that mech again.

Edited by Guido, 22 September 2013 - 02:10 PM.


#176 TibsVT

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Posted 22 September 2013 - 07:41 PM

*Looks at thread title.

*Ponders.

You do know the Clan are never coming.. Right..?

#177 WintermuteOmega

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 02:23 AM

View PostKelesK, on 22 September 2013 - 07:41 PM, said:

*Looks at thread title.

*Ponders.

You do know the Clan are never coming.. Right..?


X-D
The Clan is a Lie!

#178 Karl Streiger

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 05:05 AM

Simple rule for clan players:
shooting at a enemy allready engaged in single combat (assist - get a CBill Bonus of - 10,000)

Stealing a Kill - is the same as commiting a team kill.... the player could be reported - (a ban means - he is baned form beeing a clansman ... he still could play MWO as part of the IS

#179 Nehkrosis

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 06:05 AM

Yeah, something so cutthroat that most wont play them.
make it INCREDIBLY difficult to grind up resource, put in an honour and zell system, a batchall system, and the rest falls into place no problem.

i really hope PGI are actually creative with the implementation..

#180 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 23 September 2013 - 06:16 AM

View PostStoicblitzer, on 17 August 2013 - 03:46 PM, said:

PGI is great at balancing. Why would the clans be OP?

So they will work as intended. Its the way players will not follow lore that will break the Clans in MWO.





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