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My Experience With The Darkside - Hawken Vs Mwo


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#1 Rigiroth

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 08:20 AM

Hawken vs MWO: A Nonobjective Analysis (With back story starter!)

Back story starter

When I first played Hawken, I had already been well established in MWO, so I did the rational thing of take a glance, see something I don't like, play a few alright games, and pass it off as inferior. Recently, however, while looking for MWO's Pax East announcements, I stumbled upon Hawken's Pax East video found here:



The first 6 minutes are kind of bland, just talking about mech specializations and new mechs coming out. However, at 6:__ they make a very interesting announcement: a healing mech similar to the medic from TF2. After hearing this and watch the rest of the video (I lost interest again towards the end as they start to talk about graphics, which my PC can't handle that well), I decided I would play a bit of Hawken and compare the two on some points.

I readily acknowledge that they are not the same game, but they are competitors and knowledge is a very useful asset for PGI, who can learn from Hawken, and the consumer, who will be spending money on one or the other.

Facts about Hawken, since most people I know just say Hawken is a twich shooter and pass it off. I will also state that I don'tk now the ends and outs of Hawken nearly as well as I do MWO which is evident from later parts in the post, but for first impressions (The important part to know for F2P games since that is what will get people to spend money)

Business Model
All Mechs in Hawken are five dollars. Additionally, mech customizations run anywhere from $1.50 to $2.50. Cosmetics range from $1.00 to $2.50. Colors are all free, but only very small parts of the mech can be painted. Camos do cost and allow more effective use of the colors and cost about the same as other cosmetic items.

Customization
The Customization in Hawken is dramatically more limited. Each mech has three primary weapons to choose from.. Mechs also have offensive and support items such as mines, turrets, heal charges, and deploy-able shields. Lastly, mechs have passive buffs that all feature some sort of buff as well as a downside, such as increased bullet damage but less armor, more armor but slower movement, etc. (It's important to note here that this is the thing that originally turned me away as I saw it as P2W and a throw back to CoD 4. This is, however, not the case because mechs are harder to kill and the extra damage is miniscule in comparison. Also, all mechs start out with +5% armor).

Gameplay
Matches are 15 minutes in length and feature re-spawning mechs. Mechs die faster than in MWO, but not nearly as fast as other popular twitch shooters like Call of Duty. Their are no head shots or a complex hit system like MWO; a mech has a health bar and when it is depleted, the mech dies. Mechs can also heal in the game using a repair bot that every mech has. Little passive buffs can boost this rate (often increasing start time as a trade off), but ultimately, every mech can find a corner to hide in and heal quickly to return to battle. Mechs move at different speeds, but their aren't mechs that move at egregiously different speeds. All mechs can also dash in all directions to avoid damage and all mechs have jump jets that allow hovering without much escalation outside of an initial burst.

Matchmaking
While I don't fully understand the matchmaking system, it does group players based on skill and features a lobby system, which is currently broken since it unbalances games if players of different skill levels join after the initial creation, this is an issue they are addressing. The key thing here is the lobby system.

Starting equipment
Everyone in Hawken starts out with a basic medium mech that comes with a basic item for every part except Offensive Items. The starter mech, called Fred, may not be the best at any one thing but it is easy to pilot and is easily able to avoid other mechs it can't fight, the assaults, while pounding on the ones it can, the lights.

Gamemodes
Hawken currently features two game modes, Team Deathmatch and Siege. I haven’t had any experience with Siege because Hawken requires new players to play in TDM to get a feel for the game first. I will edit this post with more information on Siege when I acquire it.

End of Facts. Start of opinion/ What PGI Could learn from Hawken.

Hawken's base game is currently much better than MWO. The development team knows their audience. They have created a forgiving game at an affordable price to reach their target audience. Their prices are actually micro-transactions that are more likely to appeal to their target audience of teenagers and people in their early 20s. MWO, on the other hand, is priced for older adults who are fans of the game. The issue is that they are trying to make the game appeal to the younger audience, but they aren't adjusting the prices for said audience. Additionally, they aren’t' fast enough to keep up with the high demands of the younger audience who often tend to lack the patience of older players. For a long time, PGI has been talking about how their meta-game will drive MWO home, but the problem with that is that the base-game simply isn't good enough right now. The only reason I will state here is the fact of how easy it is to kill mechs do to PGI's balancing (Caused by obnoxiously high burst damage balanced by long cool down times among other weaknesses. The problem with this is that the single high burst damage is often enough to cripple mechs for the rest of the game.) Another big note is the starting equipment. Trial mechs are just garbage and that will turn away a lot of new players. It is something that definitely needs to be addressed quickly and, at the very least, before Full release. A rebalance of mech rolls is also needed as well and possibly further limitations to the customization system so mechs play their rolls.


What now?
Well, I'm going to play other games. The point of this post was to, hopefully, give Pgi a bit of perspective on where to lead the game while they are developing it. I'm still going to track MWO's progress and play the hell out of Double XP weekends with a small MC stipend every now and then, but I guess I just lack the patience mentioned earlier and hopefully things'll get better. MWO does have a lot of potential but they seriously need to focus on the base-game more than they are. Additionally, lowering prices to be more competitive will be a necessity if they plan on changing their target audience while still keeping the older audience, who they have to keep to stay profitable. (They wont be able to tap fully in to their new-target audience because of competitors like Hawken, but having the older market will help them do better) Not ignoring the forums, filled with the “minority” die-hard supporters of the game, would be a good start.

In closing, this isn't a post to bash PGI or encourage people to go play Hawken. It is a post to hopefully inform PGI of some issues that need to be addressed before Full Release and give PGI some insight on the appeal of their competitor.

Edited by Steemship, 30 March 2013 - 08:23 AM.


#2 Toxik

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 08:34 AM

I have played Hawken as well, to me MWO is superior to it in almost all aspect but the price model. Hawken base game is not better than MWO base game, it is just different. In hawken you can do well on your own which is probably why it attracts a lot of the COD crowd, that's not really the case in MWO, rush alone and you will die.
I actually do like the high burst damage that you can dish out or receive in MWO compared to the relative weakness of most hawken weapons, it does take some concentrated fire to kill a mech in hawken if you do not have sniper weapons.
IMO MWO is much more tactical than hawken, and the pace of the game are very different, if you like high action and mech on ******* then hawken is probably for you, if you prefer the feeling of weight and a more tactical game mwo is probably more suited.

#3 Rigiroth

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 08:35 AM

The point I'm getting at is that extremely high burst damage weapons does not benefit the game tactically because mechs die so fast as a result.

#4 PANZERBUNNY

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 08:40 AM

I find it funny how people call Hawken twitch, but somehow this game isn't?

I'm sorry, but there are many twitch elements in this game.

#5 Rigiroth

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 08:41 AM

View PostPANZERBUNNY, on 30 March 2013 - 08:40 AM, said:

I find it funny how people call Hawken twitch, but somehow this game isn't?

I'm sorry, but there are many twitch elements in this game.


Their are twitch elements in all FPS games. By calling a game a twitch, it means that a game is a mouse flick, a button click, and a dead opponent.

#6 Jestun

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 08:42 AM

View PostSteemship, on 30 March 2013 - 08:35 AM, said:

The point I'm getting at is that extremely high burst damage weapons does not benefit the game tactically because mechs die so fast as a result.


Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the RL military, with instagib and permadeath, make extensive use of tactics?

What makes you say tactics only apply with longer TTK (or less burst)?

#7 Dredhawk

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 08:43 AM

Hawken ok but it reminds of of CoD and im not a huge fan of CoD most of the Mech are ugly at least the once I saw..

#8 UBCslayer

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 08:44 AM

Piloting a light mech in MWO is very much twitch gaming... those that don't have fast reaction times rarely do well in a light.

#9 Rigiroth

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 08:45 AM

View PostJestun, on 30 March 2013 - 08:42 AM, said:


Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the RL military, with instagib and permadeath, make extensive use of tactics?

What makes you say tactics only apply with longer TTK (or less burst)?


First of all, the RL military uses bullets which are pretty much insta death regardless. They use strategy so their soldiers don't die. These strategies involve not going out in to open fields, not giving away position, etc. The difference between RL and MWO is that all guns in RL are perma death, where as in MWO, not all mechs mount high-burst weapons.

#10 Tennex

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 08:46 AM

well hawken is an actual F2P.

MWO is shaping out to be a P2W/P2P. at least from the gist of it, the devs want it that way.
if things go as they are MWO might be losing a good amount of F2P players to hawken.

would hate to see Hawken snowball over MWO like League of Legends did to Heroes of Newerth

Edited by Tennex, 30 March 2013 - 08:47 AM.


#11 Rigiroth

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 08:47 AM

View PostDredhawk, on 30 March 2013 - 08:43 AM, said:

Hawken ok but it reminds of of CoD and im not a huge fan of CoD most of the Mech are ugly at least the once I saw..


It is similar, but CoD involves instant death and lots of people running around going commando. In MWO, you can't do that which is what they were going for, but the problem is that they are adjusting the game to appeal to those CoD fan-boys and what they are getting is a hybrid mess that doesn't know what it is.

#12 NRP

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 08:49 AM

View PostSteemship, on 30 March 2013 - 08:35 AM, said:

The point I'm getting at is that extremely high burst damage weapons does not benefit the game tactically because mechs die so fast as a result.

So your post is nothing more than a cry baby "I hate alpha strikes and weapon boating!" thread?

#13 Pinselborste

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 08:50 AM

Hawken attracts more people cause it has better pricing, isnt as horrible bugged as mwo and is better balanced. and not to forget that the performance of hawken went up with the patches instead of down.
also theres more advertising, so the game gets known easier.

PGI just has to fix MWO, performance went down since closed beta was approaching its end, needs to get fixed.

Balance, devs made the mistake of proting over TT weapon and armor stats without thinking about why they are that way in the TT.

the guys who created tabletop game decided that they want random hit locations based on dice roles and also hexes for range, so they came up with the weapon stats to match those mechanics.
they never took a real time video game where you aim for yourself and will be developed about 30 years in the future.


and than we have the High pricing, its just way too much to pay 30$ for a single mech.

#14 Jestun

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 08:50 AM

View PostSteemship, on 30 March 2013 - 08:45 AM, said:


First of all, the RL military uses bullets which are pretty much insta death regardless. They use strategy so their soldiers don't die. These strategies involve not going out in to open fields, not giving away position, etc. The difference between RL and MWO is that all guns in RL are perma death, where as in MWO, not all mechs mount high-burst weapons.


We have 1 life within a match, while that's clearly not the same as perma-death it has the same effect on the outcome of the match.

Survival is a requirement for winning, perhaps not at a personal level but at least at a team level.

Low TTK means more care is taken to keep your own guys as safe as possible while killing the enemy quick. It means cover is even more important, it means focus firing is more effective, etc.

I see people who want higher TTK in games (not just this one, others like PS2) constantly claim that low TTK = no / less tactics but have yet to see anyone give a proper reason.

And I'm afraid "not all mechs can mount burst weapons" is not a good reason.

#15 Lyrik

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 08:58 AM

MWO needs better Trialmechs, a Tutorial and better priced HeroMechs.

#16 Vividos

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 09:03 AM

View PostToxik, on 30 March 2013 - 08:34 AM, said:

I have played Hawken as well, to me MWO is superior to it in almost all aspect but the price model. Hawken base game is not better than MWO base game, it is just different. In hawken you can do well on your own which is probably why it attracts a lot of the COD crowd, that's not really the case in MWO, rush alone and you will die.
I actually do like the high burst damage that you can dish out or receive in MWO compared to the relative weakness of most hawken weapons, it does take some concentrated fire to kill a mech in hawken if you do not have sniper weapons.
IMO MWO is much more tactical than hawken, and the pace of the game are very different, if you like high action and mech on ******* then hawken is probably for you, if you prefer the feeling of weight and a more tactical game mwo is probably more suited.


^pretty much how i feel. hawken BORED me. the small amount of customization was lame to me. the fact that you dont -really- need to work as a team at all turned me off EVEN as a solo dropper.

View PostPANZERBUNNY, on 30 March 2013 - 08:40 AM, said:

I find it funny how people call Hawken twitch, but somehow this game isn't?

I'm sorry, but there are many twitch elements in this game.


well gosh billy i guess by that token we can call every single game that uses a mouse "twitch" because you have to twitch your wrist to move the cursor!
derp
the point is (and you'd know this if you actually played hawken, or had the slightest clue what a "twitch shooter" was) that in hawken you are constantly RUNNING and DASHING and HIDING and HEALING TO FULL, and then doing more RUNNING, and DASHING, and SHOOTING FAST MOVING TARGETS. it's said over and over and over but CoD is pretty much the poster child for twitch shooters right now and Hawken really is CoD with mechs. that is all.

View PostTennex, on 30 March 2013 - 08:46 AM, said:

well hawken is an actual F2P.

MWO is shaping out to be a P2W/P2P. at least from the gist of it, the devs want it that way.
if things go as they are MWO might be losing a good amount of F2P players to hawken.

would hate to see Hawken snowball over MWO like League of Legends did to Heroes of Newerth


1) MWO is in no way, shape, or form P2W. there is NOTHING that gives paying players an automatic advantage over c-bill players. only different options. nothing clearly superior to the point of "because i paid money, the enemy team doesnt stand a chance"
please start using your brain before speaking.

2) does it really matter that LoL took over HoN? no one cares about the battle between 2nd and 3rd place. there's this game called Dota 2 that puts them both to shame. you might have heard of it.

View PostLyrik, on 30 March 2013 - 08:58 AM, said:

MWO needs better Trialmechs, a Tutorial and better priced HeroMechs.


^better trial mechs are something they've already been working on, a tutorial is something they're working on, and as for "better priced hero mechs" somehow i doubt that'll happen but seeing as to how i've bought more hero mechs than most people, i wouldnt -complain- if the prices dropped. as long as i got a return on the mc i already spent vs the new prices they dropped to.

#17 Schrottfrosch

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 09:21 AM

Actually I also have to agree that Hawken is a totally different game genre - it is a true FPS.

MWO is in a "newer" game genre I would call "the old mens FPS". World of tanks I think would be the first ones going into a direction, where positioning and patience is way more important, than being quick and have the faster reaction.

MWO is doing this even better than WoT. You still have the twitchy fast reaction demanding action you need in other FPS like counterstrike, if you are playing lights or fast mediums, but you can and should also team up with the slow dudes, who bring patience and positioning into play.

#18 danust

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 09:31 AM

Haven't tried Hawken yet. Still might. The first promo I saw had a mech that looked like a TV. Was lulz. They all look like lights. Not related but drop a Hunchback into Hawken and it seems like a kitten slaughter would result. The big stompy thing you know.

The maps look better I will admit from the outside but MWO mechs wouldn't fit anyway would they? Map count is increasing, 6 mechs done and waiting I think. A lot of sparkly lights in game play for Hawken. Different. Maybe a realism esthetic that MWO wins for me.

I don't get the p2p p2w complaints. Certainly not yet anyway. If you are angry about prices I don't know what to say. You can even buy limited camo grinding.

MWO has a long history that is a real bonus I think. It has it from being a really good universe for many years, many formats. This is not anything MWO did, just is.

I have spent well more than a subscription price for items and yet I really resist the monthly charge in some MMO's (logic is to be ignored @ times). MWO's model is pretty good. Don't buy that $30 mech. You won't win any more than normal. You can play well with only internet service to pay for.

Balance good overall, fix bugs, unstoppable. If I was to invest long term it would be MWO.

#19 jakucha

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 09:45 AM

Last I played Hawken I tended to do really well, used that miniflak thing. It's fun in different ways, but I don't prefer the game play compared to Battletech.

#20 p8ragon

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 09:49 AM

MWO needs better pricing. Why should I pay $15+ for an AVERAGE mech in MWo when i can pay $5 for ANY mech in Hawken?

Also, new players don't know the subtle differences between mwo/hawken or don't really care when the price discreptancy is that massive. I played hawken for the longest time and I ******* loved mechwarrior :)

It was only the elimination of R&R that got me back into this game (was sick of coming up negative as a new player...because telling a new player to get better or **** is SUCH AN EFFECTIVE WAY TO ATTRACT NEW BLOOD)





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