123 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

Lostdragon, on 21 August 2013 - 08:26 AM, said:

So much for role warfare. Now all you need to be the best scout in the game is a rock that is as tall and wide as your mech.

Scissors said:

Rock is OP, please nerf. Paper is fine.

[Lostdragon]

extraammo, on 21 August 2013 - 08:12 AM, said:

There needs to be a "maybe" option for this poll. They should make the drone targetable so that it's position is relayed to allies. The fact that they implemented it in a physically reasonable way, is pretty awesome. They just need to expound on that and it's alright.

I don't get why everyone is so close minded and angry. Look at it with some sort of, "Hmm, maybe we could make it work like this." It's not like PGI is following tabletop with how weapons work with the whole convergence thing, so it is kinda nice that they implemented 3PV in a way that is somewhat (though not completely) balanced.

As is, there are some issues. Obviously queues for 1vp restrictions should be put in place, but this drone has potential to be an interesting addition to gameplay.

3PV is a game changer. It trivializes scouting because now anyone can get behind cover and scout over that cover with absolutely no risk. Sure, the enemy can see your drone but they can't target you or shoot you. You have the advantage of being able to see what type of mechs they have, where they are heading, and in some cases their loadouts to a degree. All the enemy knows is someone is behind that rock. The person in 3PV has a tremendous advantage because they not only have way more information but they can also relay it to their team via typing because they are safely behind cover.

[hashinshin]

So nobody wants to talk about how IN THIS VERY SCREENSHOT his team is already shooting the enemy? He's basically sitting there going

"HEY GUISE I USED MY 3PV TO FIND THEIR TEAM!"
His team is going...
"Dude, we know. We're already shooting them."
"NAH DUDE MY 3PV HACKS IS WINNING THE GAME!"
"Maybe you can try helping?"
"I AM HELPING WITH MY SUPER SPIFFY 3PV HACKS DERP HURP WHAT A GOOD USE OF 100 TONS!"

[extraammo]

Lostdragon, on 21 August 2013 - 08:34 AM, said:

3PV is a game changer. It trivializes scouting because now anyone can get behind cover and scout over that cover with absolutely no risk. Sure, the enemy can see your drone but they can't target you or shoot you. You have the advantage of being able to see what type of mechs they have, where they are heading, and in some cases their loadouts to a degree. All the enemy knows is someone is behind that rock. The person in 3PV has a tremendous advantage because they not only have way more information but they can also relay it to their team via typing because they are safely behind cover.

I recognize that. What you need to recognize is that 3PV is not going to go away. So, in addition to having games where it is restricted, we should focus on giving some feedback to make 3PV a good thing to those who play games with it. The proper thing to do is recognize the advantage and introduce trade-offs.

[Lightfoot]

The Atlas needs Jump Jets, think Highlander, Victor. Now as you see over the ridge there, pick a target, jump and fire on the way down. Bingo. Repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat,repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat,repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat,repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat,repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat,repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat,repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat,repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat,repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat,repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat,repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat,repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat,repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat,repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat,repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat,repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat,repeat, repeat.......................................

Just saying players find this to be easy-mode many times. Comms make it worse.

I was hoping I would be getting an external view of my mech, but it's too close. This could be done if when zooming out the camera became restricted in height, but not important. I will be using 1rst person for any gameplay.

btw, voted no to the Atlas, you need jump jets, that allows you to jump up and take the shot.

Edited by Lightfoot, 21 August 2013 - 07:23 PM.

[Thuzel]

Deathlike, on 21 August 2013 - 06:59 AM, said:

TBH, I expect a complete video of how to exploit 3PV effectively needs to be created in short order... preferably an entire record of a match so people don't get the silly idea that the thing was altered in any way.

That is how you get PGI's attention... video proof so they look like "geniuses" for deploying 3PV AS IS.

I'm pretty sure that wouldn't help. Either:

1. They lack the most basic understanding of situational awareness and how it applies to combat. Or
2. They're perfectly aware of the major advantage 3pv brings, but are just playing ignorant for their own reasons.

At this point, the most damaging thing about this is PGI's denial of any advantage from using 3pv. This shouldn't even be a debate, the ability to switch into 3pv whenever needed is a *huge advantage* and anyone denying that is entirely delusional or purposely trolling.

If PGI honestly believes what they say, that the ability to survey large chunks of the battlefield without exposing your mech has no value, then this game is already done. I don't have any faith that a company with such a flawed understanding of tactics could ever produce a worthwhile game.

For crying out loud, it lets you completely look around obstacles and terrain and only maybe exposes your own single position without any risk to your mech and without compromising any combat ability. There's no argument, that is a flat out advantage.

-- Edit --

Trying to be nice...

Edited by Thuzel, 21 August 2013 - 08:52 AM.

[zorak ramone]

I think this poll has been immensly useful from a statistical standpoint.

We now know approximately the percentage of users on this forum who are unfathomably awful / ELO = ELow / Steering Wheel Underhive.

[Chavette]

3rd person drone should occupy a module slot, switching between 1st and 3rd should be disallowed. There I said it.

Edited by Chavette, 21 August 2013 - 09:00 AM.

[Deathlike]

Thuzel, on 21 August 2013 - 08:49 AM, said:

At this point, the most damaging thing about this is PGI's denial of any advantage from using 3pv. This shouldn't even be a debate, the ability to switch into 3pv whenever needed is a *huge advantage* and anyone denying that is entirely delusional or purposely trolling.

I've seen both extremes, but I think people don't entirely grasp what it all means or how it is applied. 3PV is effectively like having a government satellite tracking your movements from above. It's not quite the same analogy, but any advantage that you can process and understand the information you receive is usually very handy.

The same kind of discussion happened with Seismic... it's not necessarily what you find out, it's what you do with the information given. Some people don't know what to with it and be indifferent... others will find ways to make this information useful in some form. It's not the "literal wallhack", but certainly a "mech finder" and people who knew how to make of the most of it are still benefiting in the current version of Seismic (in fact, I still carry it for that very reason). It can reduce the effectiveness of an attempted backrage... if not find mechs that I would've have been able to track visually...

[MustrumRidcully]

Quote

If PGI honestly believes what they say, that the ability to survey large chunks of the battlefield without exposing your mech has no value, then this game is already done. I don't have any faith that a company with such a flawed understanding of tactics could ever produce a worthwhile game.

Who wrote that Information Warfare blog? I thought they knew about this stuff?

[Lostdragon]

extraammo, on 21 August 2013 - 08:40 AM, said:

I recognize that. What you need to recognize is that 3PV is not going to go away. So, in addition to having games where it is restricted, we should focus on giving some feedback to make 3PV a good thing to those who play games with it. The proper thing to do is recognize the advantage and introduce trade-offs.

I recognize that, believe me. But giving feedback is obviously pointless. Believing what PGI says is obviously foolish. They have lied repeatedly and continue to lie by saying 3PV offers no advantage. I think you are delusional if you believe PGI will recognize the advantage and introduce trade offs as you suggest.

At this point I am very frustrated with the direction the game is going and PGI's attitude toward the community. I have already cut back my play time on MWO a lot and recent changes are only reducing it further. I will definitely not be spending any money on the game any time soon. I will continue to play some and participate in the forums but I am not going to financially support the game or recommend it to friends.

Hopefully one day the issues I have with the game and how it is being handled will be worked out and I will feel comfortable supporting it financially and recommending it to friends.

[Thuzel]

Deathlike, on 21 August 2013 - 08:59 AM, said:

I've seen both extremes, but I think people don't entirely grasp what it all means or how it is applied. 3PV is effectively like having a government satellite tracking your movements from above. It's not quite the same analogy, but any advantage that you can process and understand the information you receive is usually very handy.

The same kind of discussion happened with Seismic... it's not necessarily what you find out, it's what you do with the information given. Some people don't know what to with it and be indifferent... others will find ways to make this information useful in some form. It's not the "literal wallhack", but certainly a "mech finder" and people who knew how to make of the most of it are still benefiting in the current version of Seismic (in fact, I still carry it for that very reason). It can reduce the effectiveness of an attempted backrage... if not find mechs that I would've have been able to track visually...

Excellent points.

But, I'll add that even if someone doesn't know what do with the information it should still be absurdly obvious that the info has value. They personally may not know what to do with it, but others would and even the slowest players have to know that. PGI for damn sure has to know that.

The capability to visually track an enemy force without physical risk is an extreme and obvious tactical advantage. PGI, in denying that, has less credibility than a crackhead looking for a fix.

[Mogney]

I cant believe ppl are still talking about this. 3PV is a non-factor.

[Thuzel]

MustrumRidcully, on 21 August 2013 - 09:18 AM, said:

[/size]
Who wrote that Information Warfare blog? I thought they knew about this stuff?

Personally, I do think they know this stuff. They're just trying to play ignorant in order to avoid stating the real reasons they're doing this.

Either the player count is too low to sustain separated queues, or they've got some other reason inside PGI. But whatever the real reason, they think it's better to play dumb.

[Slash Beastleo]

Please PGI, just put 3PV out of the game and let's just pretend nothing happened...
Also that article up above.... sad PGI, really sad.......

[Telemetry]

This is like a bad relationship with your girlfriend. She keeps lying and playing dumb to get what she really wants instead of being honest and forthcoming. We keep on hoping things will get better and hanging on because we put so much effort into the relationship.

In my case, I've dumped a lot of time (80+ mechs, almost all mastered) and money (about 1,000 across 2 accounts) for the hope that they will turn this ship around and get back on track. Hell, at this point I am part of the problem. I am giving them the money to keep the project viable and continue to screw me over....

[Lostdragon]

hashinshin, on 21 August 2013 - 08:36 AM, said:

So nobody wants to talk about how IN THIS VERY SCREENSHOT his team is already shooting the enemy? He's basically sitting there going

"HEY GUISE I USED MY 3PV TO FIND THEIR TEAM!"
His team is going...
"Dude, we know. We're already shooting them."
"NAH DUDE MY 3PV HACKS IS WINNING THE GAME!"
"Maybe you can try helping?"
"I AM HELPING WITH MY SUPER SPIFFY 3PV HACKS DERP HURP WHAT A GOOD USE OF 100 TONS!"

Maybe his team is shooting the enemy because he told them where the enemy is, how many there are, and the best way to approach for a firing line.

[Abivard]

Forced armlock? I have free arm movement in mechs that should have NO lateral arm movement ever!

in 3pv they do, and the arm mounted weapons do hit where that meatball is looking.

My jaegers get almost a 15% twist bonus to arms when I switch into 3pv, that is most likely a bug. But a freaking huge glaring obvious bug too!

The ease with which i can switch modes is absurd..
it is death for a new player to play in 3pv.... so why is it on by default?
They don't know how or when to shut it off, and I bet they will tend to wander all over the place as they have no minimap and do not know they can bring op the big map by pressing 'B'

This gives huge and unwanted advantages to smart experienced players and penalizes new players even more.

I am now convinced russ and bryan wish MWO to fail so they do not have to pay off their real investors, ala 'The Producers' let alone deliver on all the stuff they have sold us.

Well, that is what you get for buying a PIG in a Poke!

[hashinshin]

Lostdragon, on 21 August 2013 - 10:05 AM, said:

Maybe his team is shooting the enemy because he told them where the enemy is, how many there are, and the best way to approach for a firing line.

Okay. Lets completely ignore the insanity of you suggesting that he managed to tell his entire team where the opposing team was and how to get in position AND THEY DID (instead of ignoring him) before it took the opposing team the 10 seconds it would take to get over to him.

Lets ignore the fact the opposing team can now see his team and rendered this entire situation null as cover is non existent in mechwarrior since it's a brawling game.

Lets ignore all logic and reason such as "won't their team just go kill the now separated Atlas?" in order to make 3PV look as broken as possible!

[Umbra8]

hashinshin, on 21 August 2013 - 10:39 AM, said:

Okay. Lets completely ignore the insanity of you suggesting that he managed to tell his entire team where the opposing team was and how to get in position AND THEY DID (instead of ignoring him) before it took the opposing team the 10 seconds it would take to get over to him.

There's this thing called third party voice chat, which has been in use since closed beta and has been pretty OP since then too. It can and does do exactly what you have described here.

hashinshin, on 21 August 2013 - 10:39 AM, said:

Lets ignore the fact the opposing team can now see his team and rendered this entire situation null as cover is non existent in mechwarrior since it's a brawling game.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA BHAWHAHAHAHAHAHA "it's a brawling game" HA! ha.... heh.....

oh.... you're serious.

The PPC/Gauss sniping meta of the last six months does not seem to agree with you.

hashinshin, on 21 August 2013 - 10:39 AM, said:

Lets ignore all logic and reason such as "won't their team just go kill the now separated Atlas?" in order to make 3PV look as broken as possible!

Separated Atlas? What makes you think the Atlas is separated? He could have friendlies nearby or be covered by a very dangerous firing line, you don't know, that picture doesn't tell us that.

What is DOES tell us is that he's spotted a dangerous conglomeration of enemies and he did it without risk in a way you could not do if you did not employ 3rd person view. If you glace up at the title of the thread you'll note that is the pertinent question this image is meant to answer. The questions you are so frothingly eager to put forward are irrelevant. If the mechwarrior in that Atlas subsequently had a brain aneurysm and died it doesn't change the fact that he gained advantage from 3rd person views and that's the issue here.