447 replies to this topic

[slide]

At this point in time many people are faced with the stark choice of do something or leave.

Since the 3PV patch we have already officially lost one excellent unit leader and a brilliant mechwarrior who have asked for Phoenix refunds and uninstalled the game. One of those was publicly ridiculed by Russ in a twitter feed, I suspect that there are a number that have just hung up their Neurohelmets and uninstalled.

Every unit leader I have spoken to has seen this. Members they actually get on line in TS channels are playing anything other than MWO.

The current communications channels are not achieving anything.

The so called vocal minority, which includes those who oppose this initiative are ostracised.

This is a chance for everyone to be heard, saying "hey we give a damn, we want to help" and for someone on the other end to get a metric that we mean it.

It's one game at a specific time, it can't hurt to try something and this is the best idea I have heard of. (not including #savemwo initiative)

[DeathofSelf]

Part of me really wants to do this but the other part says "what's the point?". Best case they just split the ques of 1pv and 3pv/1pv, and for me that just isn't enough. The list of things they screwed up/pushed aside/lied about is just too long (Community Warfare, knockdowns, hit detection/net code, weapon balance, AAA quality, information warfare, role warfare, balanced mech classes, no coolant, no 3pv).... Honestly they would have to significantly delay launch, go back to where the game was in closed beta and start over from there, and I just don't see that happening. Like I said, best case they band-aid a couple things to appease us. But at the end of the day we still have a **** with a couple band-****.

Edit: Wow, really? a-i-d-s and t-u-r-d are censored? Give me a break.

Edited by DeathofSelf, 23 August 2013 - 07:06 AM.

[Citizen Erased]

ok... You treat PGI like a bunch of lyers. Not my opinion but ok, it's yours.

But i find it REALLY dishonest to put something like this :

Mista Whizzard, on 21 August 2013 - 06:51 AM, said:

Protections Interest Graphs:
Just MWO: http://www.google.co...mwomercs&cmpt=q
Add Star Citizen: http://www.google.co...0citizen&cmpt=q
Add War Thunder: http://www.google.co...0thunder&cmpt=q
Add World of Tanks: http://www.google.co...%20tanks&cmpt=q

Change "mwomercs" in the field by "Mechwarrior Online" and you'll see a FREAKIN' difference. Not awesome but quite. I dunno if you did it on purpose or not but jeez... It's like always speaking to some thickheaded since a while now... Pretty annoying for everyone.

More than 3PV... Really.

[TheSteelRhino]

You do realize that a giant sync drop like you have proposed could overload their servers, firewalls, and load balancers? In short it is called a "Denial of service" attack and this could be construed as much.

And by the way in some places that is a criminal act which includes jail time and fines

I understand your frustration, but you will very likely negatively impact others that do not share your views.

I would suggest you rethink this, and I for one will not participate.

[DeathofSelf]

Rhinehardt Ritter, on 23 August 2013 - 06:59 AM, said:

You do realize that a giant sync drop like you have proposed could overload their servers, firewalls, and load balancers? In short it is called a "Denial of service" attack and this could be construed as much.

And by the way in some places that is a criminal act which includes jail time and fines

I understand your frustration, but you will very likely negatively impact others that do not share your views.

I would suggest you rethink this, and I for one will not participate.

Except this wouldn't be an intentional denial of service attack, if it does happen to crash their severs then the "vocal minority" isn't really a minority is it?

[TheSteelRhino]

Good luck with that argument once the attorneys get involved.
People get thrown in jail or fined all the time for "good intentioned" acts....

And by the way. If u do happen to crash the servers as a consumer and fellow player I think ya'll suck

I dont like 3pv either and am an old school player (mw alll) but I hardly think it is bad as ya'll make out

Give them a chance to take feedback and tweak it for crying out loud. Mw4 had 3pv and was successful. And jump sniping there was far worse.

Seriously?

Additionally i want you to think about who is going to clean up the mess. Russ or Bryan? No its going to be some poor sysads and network engineers that are hopefully on shift. Or they'll be at home with their families or asleep. And it wasn't even their decision. Yeah this is a really "noble" effort.

Edited by Rhinehardt Ritter, 23 August 2013 - 07:54 AM.

[Mista Whizzard]

Citizen Erased, on 23 August 2013 - 06:54 AM, said:

ok... You treat PGI like a bunch of lyers. Not my opinion but ok, it's yours.

But i find it REALLY dishonest to put something like this :



Change "mwomercs" in the field by "Mechwarrior Online" and you'll see a FREAKIN' difference. Not awesome but quite. I dunno if you did it on purpose or not but jeez... It's like always speaking to some thickheaded since a while now... Pretty annoying for everyone.

More than 3PV... Really.

I humoured you, and in defense of Protection:

http://www.google.co...20online&cmpt=q

Still a solid decline since the beginning of the year.

DeathofSelf, on 23 August 2013 - 07:18 AM, said:

Except this wouldn't be an intentional denial of service attack, if it does happen to crash their severs then the "vocal minority" isn't really a minority is it?

My common sense tells me the same thing, but rest assured I will be looking into this.

Goodnight Chaps.

[DeathofSelf]

Rhinehardt Ritter, on 23 August 2013 - 07:41 AM, said:

Good luck with that argument once the attorneys get involved.
People get thrown in jail or fined all the time for "good intentioned" acts....

And by the way. If u do happen to crash the servers as a consumer and fellow player I think ya'll suck

I dont like 3pv either and am an old school player (mw alll) but I hardly think it is bad as ya'll make out

Give them a chance to take feedback and tweak it for crying out loud. Mw4 had 3pv and was successful. And jump sniping there was far worse.

Seriously?

We aren't doing anything illegal, especially since it is not our intent to crash their servers. The intent is to "prove" the number of people who are unhappy about what is happening to the game... If you don;t think it's that bad, fine, that's your opinion, but it isn't ours.

We have given them MANY chances which is largely why we are here... MW4 was not "fine" with 3pv, and further more that was a single player first and multiplayer second, MWO is multiplayer only.

[Monsoon]

Mista Whizzard, on 21 August 2013 - 06:51 AM, said:

Protections Interest Graphs:
Just MWO: http://www.google.co...mwomercs&cmpt=q

This isn't very useful, if you 1) don't put the at least half dozen possible names that are possible search criteria such as: MWO, MW:O, Mechwarrior Online, Mechwarrior....
In fact of the five legitimate search criteria I entered mwomercs was listed at the bottom, while Mechwarrior and Mechwarrior Online towered at the top.

and 2) Don't give any context, such as since announcing Open Beta. They (PGI) have done little to advertise this game. So the occasional story out of PC Gamer or Penny Arcade might give a tiny boost, but for the most part there isn't going to be much of a concerted marketing push until around the Launch Date. The truth is the numbers peaked from August to November and dropped after that, so the peak was during Closed Beta until shortly after Open Beta started.
So what does that mean? That PGI has been doing a terrible job of game development since December, or that without advertising the relatively short attention span of people (that media is so well aware of) has moved on to the next distraction.

On another note, not sure how you 'plan' to unite the community while writing about how PGI 'lied' to use and aren't doing the things we want. That pretty much sounds like what #savemwo are saying and they (not necessarily the ones running it but many of its members) are the ones at the heart of making the forums such a quagmire of vitriol that many gamers have just stopped coming to the forums altogether.

Edited by Monsoon, 23 August 2013 - 11:06 AM.

[TheSteelRhino]

Mista Whizzard, on 23 August 2013 - 07:41 AM, said:

I humoured you, and in defense of Protection:

http://www.google.co...line&cmpt=q

Still a solid decline since the beginning of the year.



When has common sense mattered in things legal?


My common sense tells me the same thing, but rest assured I will be looking into this.

Goodnight Chaps.

When has common sense mattered when lawyers get involved?

Sorry I feel your frustration, but DO NOT support you intent here, and as a fellow player and consumer ask that you find some sort productive method vs a destructive method. It is extreme over reactions like this that are going to destroy mwo.

[Anders]

Rhinehardt Ritter, on 23 August 2013 - 06:59 AM, said:

You do realize that a giant sync drop like you have proposed could overload their servers, firewalls, and load balancers? In short it is called a "Denial of service" attack and this could be construed as much.

And by the way in some places that is a criminal act which includes jail time and fines

I understand your frustration, but you will very likely negatively impact others that do not share your views.

I would suggest you rethink this, and I for one will not participate.

Mr. Ritter:

So then in your opinion, the WoW Launch, Diablo III launch, what is most likely going to happen for the Launch of the Hangar Module for Star citizen, etc, all constitute a Denial of Service attack?

You cannot get into trouble for playing the game. Either they have enough bandwidth or they don't - they are providing a service which we are taking advantage of in the natural course of business. What if there was a large tournament that took place in MWO which crashed the servers - would they also be in trouble?

None of what you have posited makes any legalistic sense in the slightest. You are simply attempting to dissuade people to participate through the use of a legal bogeyman. Please stop.

Robotically Yours,
Anders

[TheSteelRhino]

Anders, on 23 August 2013 - 09:12 AM, said:

Mr. Ritter:

So then in your opinion, the WoW Launch, Diablo III launch, what is most likely going to happen for the Launch of the Hangar Module for Star citizen, etc, all constitute a Denial of Service attack?

You cannot get into trouble for playing the game. Either they have enough bandwidth or they don't - they are providing a service which we are taking advantage of in the natural course of business. What if there was a large tournament that took place in MWO which crashed the servers - would they also be in trouble?

None of what you have posited makes any legalistic sense in the slightest. You are simply attempting to dissuade people to participate through the use of a legal bogeyman. Please stop.

Robotically Yours,
Anders

Mr Anders

You don't know much about Information technology do you? My goal here is to educate not insult. Please do not take it that way.

So there is a word we use called "scaling". Companies scale up their load balancers, firewall, and server farms in anticipation of a big launch as a general rule. Once the "big event" is over they will determine what is a "normal" load and adjust the hardware (or vm, cloud server, security appliances) deployed to meet that load. Often you will see something like n+1 redundancy or better. (That means the abilty to support the typical load plus a spare in case of a failure). You can do n+2 or 2n whatever.
And with the advent of autoscaling with the cloud, you can spin up more capacity quicker than physical hardware but it's not instantaneous.

This would apply to any scheduled event. Get it? In lay terms you put out more plates for a large dinner party vs just what you family uses.

As mwo is still technically beta (at least as far as PGI is concerned) I would imagine it's safe to say they are still building up to full capacity? Wouldn't you? Especially since not all the code is in prod yet?

Maybe I am wrong and they have the capacity, or see this thread and are getting ready. Maybe they just don't care and whatever happens, happens and nothing changes.

I am not trying to stop a statement at all. I would just rather see a logical, well thought out documented statement vs an emotionally driven exercise that doesnt prove much other than u can talk peeps into clicking "launch"

And as noted previously Russ and Bryan arent the poor slobs that are going to have to deal with this. It will be some poor techs,that get called at home most likely. They will just issue some other foot in mouth statement the following day if theyacknowledge you at all.

But this what I come to expect from the forums here, and an organization such as your own that has a reputation for trolling, griefing and general pot stirring. And deserved or not that is the reputation even though I have noticed ya'll trying to play nice lately. I used to get angry and rant and nothing gets resolved that way. Unless of course you just want to drive players away? My comments about it being interpreted as a possible denial of service were for the trusting folks out there that are trusting the ringleaders here and assumed they knew what they were doing. (the responses you and others have made prove my point rather well). Kudos to the OP for at least trying to look into this and educate himself.


Here is an idea. Prove me wrong. Do something positive.

I hope you find whatever it is you are looking for. But I cannot support this endeavour. Even If I hate 3pv

Best of luck to you in drop
Ritter

Edited by Rhinehardt Ritter, 23 August 2013 - 10:21 AM.

[Monsoon]

I'm not getting involved in your debate with Anders, I just want to address your one comment on, "As mwo is still technically beta (at least as far as PGI is concerned)".

We are in BETA, we always have, I don't understand why people think that just because there's an active Store, that constitutes 'launch', the Store is part of the BETA, understanding prices, the trends/effectiveness of sales, what are consumers demanding.

Outside of the store, the game was no different from Closed to Open, the game has constantly been a series of tweaks, core content additions and fixes. Even by launch I'm not sure will have everything we'll need to be properly 'launched'. UI.20, DX11.0, Training Grounds and Community Warfare are ALL integral parts of this game and even more important then maps and mechs. On top of this, Lobbies and in-game voice chat should top the list of features that need to be in this game.

Now launch is slated for Sept. 17th, we all hope they'd have most of this by then, but CW (other then rudimentary components), Lobbies and Voice are very unlikely to make it in.

Trust me this game is very much in Beta and is likely to still feel that way come the 18th, though hopefully vastly improved upon by then.

[TheSteelRhino]

Monsoon, on 23 August 2013 - 11:22 AM, said:

I'm not getting involved in your debate with Anders, I just want to address your one comment on, "As mwo is still technically beta (at least as far as PGI is concerned)".

We are in BETA, we always have, I don't understand why people think that just because there's an active Store, that constitutes 'launch', the Store is part of the BETA, understanding prices, the trends/effectiveness of sales, what are consumers demanding.

Outside of the store, the game was no different from Closed to Open, the game has constantly been a series of tweaks, core content additions and fixes. Even by launch I'm not sure will have everything we'll need to be properly 'launched'. UI.20, DX11.0, Training Grounds and Community Warfare are ALL integral parts of this game and even more important then maps and mechs. On top of this, Lobbies and in-game voice chat should top the list of features that need to be in this game.

Now launch is slated for Sept. 17th, we all hope they'd have most of this by then, but CW (other then rudimentary components), Lobbies and Voice are very unlikely to make it in.

Trust me this game is very much in Beta and is likely to still feel that way come the 18th, though hopefully vastly improved upon by then.

Monsoon thank you for this. I am in complete agreement and just didnt want to get into that argument as well. In fact that is another pet peeve of mine. This is BETA!

As far as debates I am done. Hopefully, I have provided information that will allow folks to make logical informed decisions here and to make a wise choice. But I really do have better things to do than get bent out of shape over a game.

Anders, I hope that you and yours are sincere in your intent to make MWO better for the whole community, and can do so in a productive fashion. As far as legal bogey men go? thats up to PGI...
It's my hope that the line of thinking in this thread is replaced with something better.

Good luck on the field and be sure to target the 3rd person view players first. ( ok. That is probably not productive but it was fun to say)

[slide]

When you get the leaders of 4 units in a meeting and they all arrive at the same conclusion that no other means is working, then there is something fundamentally wrong with the whole system.

If as Mr Ritter postulates that PGI will bring in the lawyers I personally welcome it. I have been asked by this esteemed group to lay off making a formal complaint to the ACCC (Australian Competition and Consumer Commission) and the Canadian equivalent until after this event. They are in breach of several Australian (and therefore Commonwealth which includes Canada)laws with regard to there actions during the Phoenix sale.

This is a peaceful protest with the intent of helping. PGI should consider it a stress test of their system and frankly if it can't handle it a week out from launch I would suggest they have bigger problems.

This has gone so far beyond 3pv that I think you are failing to see the bigger picture. PGI on just about every level I can think of has systematically destroyed the trust of it's core players, no amount of fly by night casual players is going to save this game without a core group of players to help and guide them through the often painful learning process of this game which is another thing that PGI have yet to address adequately.

I personally have over 300 people in my MWO friends list and I keep seeing the same 30-40 people on all the time. Player Churn is a normal part of an online unit and any online game, but the drop out rate in MWO is phenomenal. They are not just taking a break either, they are gone for good. Many of those where avid BT fans who would have over the last year spent money and probably a lot of it. That is money down the drain. Ask any unit leader they will back me up.

PGI have sold a lot of Phoenix deals but I can guarantee you they would have sold twice, if not three times as many if they had a bit more trust from their players, I can't count the number of players that have said to me "I would really like to get the Phoenix Pack, but I can't trust PGI to do anything they have said", which incidentally they were correct in saying. This is from players that have already spent hundreds of dollars on a game, probably don't need the deal because they could buy them with Cbills anyway (this includes me) but still want to help the game along.

PGI, whether they realise it or not are throwing away a valuable resource in their core, not just in monetary terms either, testing, advice and community activities which keep people active in ways that PGI can not.

If you don't like the way we are going about showing our support fine, come up with a better idea that has any chance of tangible success and I will support that one too.

[TheSteelRhino]

Slide.

You don't even understand what I am talking about.
What I was discussing was the "Big Sync" drop concept, and possible problems that could result for the uneducated here.

There is far more than just your little group of 4 units out there that thinks there is problems. And if THAT is all that you can see you obviously are extraordinarily narrowly focused.

Yes I understand that your feel like as founder, consumers, humans..whatever that you are entitled to be satisfied. It's a game, it's unreleased, it's Beta. If you read the terms, you pretty much have no rights other than to ask for a refund. And probably not even a "right" to that...

It's a GAME ... if this is what you guys, can spend all of your time worrying about...it's actually kind of sad.

And I love Battletech and most likely have longer than a lot of ppl here..but whatever.


It is a GAME people. Not even a sport...a game.....




/UNSUBSCRIBE

Edited by Rhinehardt Ritter, 23 August 2013 - 06:21 PM.

[repete]

Heffay, on 23 August 2013 - 05:17 AM, said:

Yeah. Wait for UI 2.0 and community warfare?

Back when 3PV was first announced, much of the community told PGI what it was going to do to the game, based on experience with 3PV in other games, and other Mechwarrior games in particular.

The response from the white knights, with NGNG at the head was "You don't know what it's going to be like. Wait and see".

So we'cw waited. And we've seen. And it is EXACTLY what we told PGI it would be like in terms of increased visibility.

So you keep waiting. And when that doesn't turn out, wait some more, and some more after that. Some of us are done waiting.

Edited by repete, 23 August 2013 - 06:52 PM.

[StandingCow]

Citizen Erased, on 23 August 2013 - 06:54 AM, said:

ok... You treat PGI like a bunch of lyers. Not my opinion but ok, it's yours.

But i find it REALLY dishonest to put something like this :



Change "mwomercs" in the field by "Mechwarrior Online" and you'll see a FREAKIN' difference. Not awesome but quite. I dunno if you did it on purpose or not but jeez... It's like always speaking to some thickheaded since a while now... Pretty annoying for everyone.

More than 3PV... Really.

I am going to show that I am a bit ignorant in how google trends works here but... if you put "mechwarrior online" doesn't that capture the separate words "mechwarrior" and "online"?

Not that it matters, you are STILL seeing a decline... no matter what you put in for a search, you want to see those graphs going up, not down.

Edited by StandingCow, 23 August 2013 - 07:00 PM.

[repete]

StandingCow, on 23 August 2013 - 06:58 PM, said:

I am going to show that I am a bit ignorant in how google trends works here but... if you put "mechwarrior online" doesn't that capture the separate words "mechwarrior" and "online"?

Trends accounts for spaces and uses comma separated values (CSV), so if you compare:

mechwarrior online (Which I think is most appropriate)
world of tanks
star citizen
war thunder

...you get the following:

http://www.google.co...%2C+war+thunder

Edited by repete, 23 August 2013 - 07:18 PM.

[Heffay]

repete, on 23 August 2013 - 07:17 PM, said:

Trends accounts for spaces and uses comma separated values (CSV), so if you compare:

mechwarrior online (Which I think is most appropriate)
world of tanks
star citizen
war thunder

...you get the following:

http://www.google.co...%2C+war+thunder

Not looking too shabby! Release will definitely shoot the MWO graph up a bunch!