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September Creative Developer Update


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#1041 Alaskan Nobody

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Posted 04 September 2013 - 12:46 PM

View PostPorkue, on 04 September 2013 - 08:16 AM, said:

Yet another reason to go play hawken. how is it possible a little indy developer could do so right, when this established franchise turns wrong again and again and again.

Seriously, see you guys in hawken.



Except Hawken is still an entirely different type of game and I for one want nothing to do with it, any more than I would if you told me to go play Hello Kitty or Spongebob instead.

#1042 Jakob Knight

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 08:58 AM

View PostSolis Obscuri, on 03 September 2013 - 05:16 PM, said:

My point was that if the devs had said up front they had back-end code ready for separate queues, but wanted to try it first without separating so they could have a large testing pool (and maybe win some people over on 3PV), they wouldn't have had the backlash they've received. Now even if they do split everything (not just 12v12), they're already branded as liars and double-dealers in a lot of players' minds, and that could've been avoided with some timely info.


You might be correct except for one sticking point. They have never said they had back-end code ready for seperate queues, and they didn't choose to not seperated them for a time for testing purposes. What they have said is that they decided not to implement the seperate queues because they didn't think it was worth doing, and that they were going to look for something else they could put in it's place that would allow them to include other features.

In short, this isn't for testing purposes, but a permanent condition due to corporate infidelity and brinksmanship. All saying what you are saying would have done is cause further rage when the announced 'testing period' was extended indefinitely and people began to understand that they were being fed more lies.

Edited by Jakob Knight, 05 September 2013 - 08:59 AM.


#1043 W A R L O R D

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Posted 05 September 2013 - 03:12 PM

I just happened to come across this video of the NVIDIA MWO Tournament and thought that everyone should be reminded about where we started and what we always need to keep in mind. This video is for EVERYONE (Russ & the entire development team and the ENTIRE MW:O Community) Please begin the video at min 3:30 and watch to min 4:40. This is what we ALL need to be reminded of:

http://www.gamespot....mmun;WatchItNow

#1044 CyBerkut

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 05:17 PM

View PostSAYF, on 05 September 2013 - 03:12 PM, said:

I just happened to come across this video of the NVIDIA MWO Tournament and thought that everyone should be reminded about where we started and what we always need to keep in mind. This video is for EVERYONE (Russ & the entire development team and the ENTIRE MW:O Community) Please begin the video at min 3:30 and watch to min 4:40. This is what we ALL need to be reminded of:

http://www.gamespot....mmun;WatchItNow


Elaborate, please. What is it that you think we should all get out of that 1 minute and 10 seconds?

#1045 -Muta-

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Posted 07 September 2013 - 08:21 PM

Agree it was a good month but.... GIMME A FLEA!

#1046 Chemie

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 03:34 AM

View PostCyBerkut, on 07 September 2013 - 05:17 PM, said:


Elaborate, please. What is it that you think we should all get out of that 1 minute and 10 seconds?


perhaps the promise an the artemis controller?

#1047 Zanathan

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 03:56 AM

View PostShar Wolf, on 04 September 2013 - 12:46 PM, said:

Except Hawken is still an entirely different type of game and I for one want nothing to do with it, any more than I would if you told me to go play Hello Kitty or Spongebob instead.


I think he is comparing progress and what they achieved to date with about the same number of employees as PGI. Forget they are different games and their appeal, have you seen the latest patch and what it offers? While it is also beta it definitely feels much more polished then MWO. Like yourself I prefer MWO over a twitch mech game but I can't help but admire what Adhesive Games have achieved in the same time frames.

#1048 Jakob Knight

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 04:09 AM

View PostZanathan, on 12 September 2013 - 03:56 AM, said:


I think he is comparing progress and what they achieved to date with about the same number of employees as PGI. Forget they are different games and their appeal, have you seen the latest patch and what it offers? While it is also beta it definitely feels much more polished then MWO. Like yourself I prefer MWO over a twitch mech game but I can't help but admire what Adhesive Games have achieved in the same time frames.


I don't know....he seems to be strongly trying to stump for Hawken, especially when he links the other game's website in the forums for this game. While I have alot against the Devs of MWO for their conduct, there is a reason I am here and not over in the Hawken side of the net. Mainly, that I expect more of my gaming time than a console game.

Comparing progress of the companies with similar resource bases is okay. Urging players to go play a rival game instead of the one the forums are for is not, as it is essentially using them as hostile advertising, and Hawken has been doing this since MWO started. You can say 'I'm off to play Hawken', but saying 'Guys, we should all go play Hawken, and here is the website' is a little like a used car salesman going into a Ford dealership posing as a customer to tell other customers how they should come to his shop instead.

Edited by Jakob Knight, 12 September 2013 - 04:17 AM.


#1049 Zanathan

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 04:32 AM

View PostJakob Knight, on 12 September 2013 - 04:09 AM, said:


I don't know....he seems to be strongly trying to stump for Hawken, especially when he links the other game's website in the forums for this game. While I have alot against the Devs of MWO for their conduct, there is a reason I am here and not over in the Hawken side of the net. Mainly, that I expect more of my gaming time than a console game.

Comparing progress of the companies with similar resource bases is okay. Urging players to go play a rival game instead of the one the forums are for is not, as it is essentially using them as hostile advertising, and Hawken has been doing this since MWO started. You can say 'I'm off to play Hawken', but saying 'Guys, we should all go play Hawken, and here is the website' is a little like a used car salesman going into a Ford dealership posing as a customer to tell other customers how they should come to his shop instead.


I hear you, I might have given him the benefit of the doubt. I agree, I never liked the whole MWO vs <insert game> and I'm leaving for <insert game>.

Back on topic though I really do feel that PGI is going to spring a surprise for launch. There would be no reason to 'launch' otherwise ... (famous last words) :)

#1050 Filter41

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 04:50 AM

View PostSAYF, on 05 September 2013 - 03:12 PM, said:

I just happened to come across this video of the NVIDIA MWO Tournament and thought that everyone should be reminded about where we started and what we always need to keep in mind. This video is for EVERYONE (Russ & the entire development team and the ENTIRE MW:O Community) Please begin the video at min 3:30 and watch to min 4:40. This is what we ALL need to be reminded of:

http://www.gamespot....mmun;WatchItNow


yeah really interesting how far they get! In July 2012 (more than a year ago) Bryan Ekman talked on the game modes of MWO:

"We do have a mode called dropship mode which come along with community warfare expansion." (min 33:30)

Did i missed something?
And when we are already on tracing history:

"The beta user have done a fantastic job giving us feedback, so passionate. They tell us when we get it right, they absolutly tell us when we get it wrong and we have been listining to them." (min 26:00)

well, well...

Edited by Filter41, 12 September 2013 - 04:57 AM.


#1051 Alaskan Nobody

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 09:50 AM

View PostZanathan, on 12 September 2013 - 04:32 AM, said:


Back on topic though I really do feel that PGI is going to spring a surprise for launch. There would be no reason to 'launch' otherwise ... (famous last words) :rolleyes:


I hear ya on that one mate - though I would not expect to much, if only because so few other free to play games had much to offer - at launch.

#1052 Chronojam

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 09:51 AM

View PostFilter41, on 12 September 2013 - 04:50 AM, said:


yeah really interesting how far they get! In July 2012 (more than a year ago) Bryan Ekman talked on the game modes of MWO:

"We do have a mode called dropship mode which come along with community warfare expansion." (min 33:30)

Did i missed something?
And when we are already on tracing history:

"The beta user have done a fantastic job giving us feedback, so passionate. They tell us when we get it right, they absolutly tell us when we get it wrong and we have been listining to them." (min 26:00)

well, well...


That was before they introduced Ghost Listening. That's where they ignore what we're saying, then announce things like that stunt Russ pulled where he said that everybody's cool with the direction the game is going buried in the almost-apology for ******* everybody off.

#1053 merz

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 10:35 AM

View PostChronojam, on 12 September 2013 - 09:51 AM, said:


Posted Image

That was before they introduced Ghost Listening. That's where they ignore what we're saying, then announce things like that stunt Russ pulled where he said that everybody's cool with the direction the game is going buried in the almost-apology for ******* everybody off.


"Ghost listening!".. I do wonder sometimes how many folks on here have read 'politics and the english language', because some things are a bit transparent and condescending to the people you're trying to incite (or was it represent? I'm still not quite sure what you're going for. ) When the language becomes something on the order of 'defense of marriage' .. But, hey, i'll let that one slide so we can move on to the next interesting bit. "THEY ARE NOT LISTENING TO US!!" you say repeatedly. "They are doing whatever the hell they want to!" .. And that gets me thinking about game development in general, the freemium model in in MMOs, and a good deal of other stuff that would probably do well as a writeup somewhere like gamasutra.

Several problems i'd like to point out, the first of them being that there are relatively few clear directions the community ever offers in response to problems. There are voices outlining what is wrong with unanimity, but solutions are few and far in between. when solutions are offered, they tend to be all over the place. Many players regard the design process as something that, ideally, leaves their preferred play style alone if they are doing well or, in some other cases, makes other people's play styles less efficient because they've been doing poorly against them. Take a look at this guy for example - he is also that 'us' you are referring to, isn't he? Now, add to this several different perceived 'eras' of the game in which different approaches seemed predominant and you've got different sub-groups that forever look back upon those days through rose-tinted glasses, blaming the developer for taking their idea of fun (usually defined as pwning face) out. If you add some real money into this, folks appear with the attitude of 'i paid for this when it was in a state of X and, consequently, it is in a state of Y, therefore i feel deceived out of my money, want refund, f you and your game, etc.

Attempting to balance a game exclusively through 'community feedback' is challenging precisely because opiniond offered are rarely objective, views rarely holistic and, even when they are, may radically disagree with each other's envisioning of the game. Small case in point: the people who, before ghost heat, raged about the high-alpha gameplay, raged for sets of solutions as different as removing group fire to breaking individual weapons in different ways, then raged about ghost heat making same high-alpha builds non-viable and the gameplay being too slow. Here's a guy who is blaming the game's problems on PGI having listened to the community too much! And i didn't have to fish these posts out from the depths of the forum - they were all top-activity threads made today alone. This aside, I'd like to postulate for a moment that maybe, just maybe, a person with the title of 'game designer', relevant credentials and position of such authority on a game of this sort probably has at least as much of an idea on how to make the game as the people playing it. Just entertain that concept for a split second. Someone who is this game's designer is by definition entitled to their vision of it. You (the player) are entitled to access to the game and to your opinion of it. You are most certainly not entitled to design the game.

Entitlement is an important word here, because the issue isn't binary. There had been some very good ideas coming from the community. Even quite recently, one of your fellow goons had suggested an interesting change to the UAC mechanic (I wonder what you'd call it. The awful charge-up of terrible badness?) But the idea that the community has some kind of an automatic right to design the game via some direct or representative democratic process can be easily gamed.

Incidentally, that was sort of what went down in eve online, for a while at least. because goons could very easily mobilise a voter base, the CSM - a kind of community-elected body set to help oversee the development and voice player concerns - became a means of protecting the status quo from design changes both for goons and various other power blocs that could mobilise enough votes. Even with a direct path to democracy, you see, 'the community' - that 'us' you keep referring to, had relatively little interest in involving themselves directly. Instead, goons pretty much hijacked the process. At least until their most notable leader got sauced and went on the record making fun of griefing some person to the verge of suicide and encouraging others to help as though it was a stand-up comedy routine.

Even still, would you like to have mechwarrior online where design decisions are made by a bunch of sociopathic trolls over at something awful? because that seems to be the precise point of the whole 'drown the game in negativity, take it to the press' exercise you're engaging in. My guess is that you're hoping, through all of this thinly-veiled 'save MWO' bs, that a similar setup can happen here and consolidate that power with the goons/4chan through liberal amounts of pubbie rage.

Except it isn't going to happen, and most of your brosefs have already ragequit/got ragebanned.. You've ended up a kind of lone voice in this wilderness, doomsayer's sandwichboard and all. I can see PGI privately approaching units like snow ravens or dv8 regarding balance issues. But goons, despite all of their insistence that they're the most passionate battletech fans, have been rather mediocre when it came to actually playing MWO. They'll most likely be remembered for spamming chat, organised team-killing and eventually getting purged over being a hodgepodge of 'sperglords and sociopaths.

tl;dr: the "Us" that chronojam keeps invoking is a broad collection of opinions that rarely agree upon anything, even what the problem really is. Even if we could dictate this game's design, we could not agree upon which direction to go in as a group without assigning more merit to some opinions over others, and most of our current idea discussion threads quickly devolve into petty, personal insults. what chronojam is after in trying to speak for the entire community is embarrassing PGI into agreeing to some form of an official player-input channel that the goons could manipulate to whatever ends they wish, or just call it a personal/cultural victory. Everyone is playing a game according to their own rules, boundaries and victory conditions. This happens to be theirs.

Edited by merz, 12 September 2013 - 12:10 PM.


#1054 Commander Kobold

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 10:49 AM

View PostFilter41, on 12 September 2013 - 04:50 AM, said:


yeah really interesting how far they get! In July 2012 (more than a year ago) Bryan Ekman talked on the game modes of MWO:

"We do have a mode called dropship mode which come along with community warfare expansion." (min 33:30)

Did i missed something?
And when we are already on tracing history:

"The beta user have done a fantastic job giving us feedback, so passionate. They tell us when we get it right, they absolutly tell us when we get it wrong and we have been listining to them." (min 26:00)

well, well...

Just because they don't do what the community says they should doesn't mean they aren't listening (mind you if I where them I'd have shut the forums down a long time ago XD)

#1055 Alaskan Nobody

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 10:55 AM

View Postmerz, on 12 September 2013 - 10:35 AM, said:

A lot of Text of DOOM (with pie... Doompie, but still pie)


That was one of the most fascinating things I have read all week - I REALLY wish I could give that +2 or 3 likes instead of just +1...

Thank You.

#1056 SoHxPaladin

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 11:12 AM

View PostDruidika, on 27 August 2013 - 01:30 PM, said:

Further down...


Well, thanks for that.


i guess i know what the launch is really about....

#1057 merz

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 11:13 AM

Cheers. I just wanted to point out that much of the stuff that chronojam and his crew go back to is very much valid - which is when russ and co. have made concrete, unambiguous promises that were subsequently broken. The problem there was precisely that they communicated too much to the community, when lauded developers like valve or bioware tend to say absolutely nothing, give no promises or commitments and try to interact with their 'communities' as little as possible. Thats basic PR/Community management when it comes to these things. The only reason folks like the goons cry out for more communication is in hopes of mis-steps like these that can be used as ammunition against a developer. Its basic social engineering. The more you interact with them, the more they will attempt to manipulate the entire process, control the conversation, etc. You should see the instructions these guys have on their site for trolling Paul. They explicitly state never to do it if you're not recording, and never to do it alone "So that if you drop the ball, someone else can pick up" or something of the sort.

#1058 SoHxPaladin

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 11:15 AM

View PostHomeless Bill, on 27 August 2013 - 01:41 PM, said:

This is super disappointing.

TL;DR:
  • Balance - HSR is coming.
  • Charity - We did Sarah's Jenner.
  • Economics - C-Bill nerf is working as intended.
  • Community - We listen and do what we think is best.
  • Policy - Stop making death threats.
  • Launch - It's happening.
It sounds to me like launch is just removing Beta from the game's name, getting panned by reviews, and telling us what to expect if the game makes it another six months. I had a lot of optimism for a long time, but it's dwindling every day.


Please tell us the new UI is going to be in at launch. Or that the new player experience is being fixed. Or something. Tell me this game isn't just waiting to be ripped apart by game critics funneled into the meatgrinder that is the new player experience.

( ._.)


bill, i just hope that they show the "working product" for groups of people to play around and be shown on the stream so that we know how much of the new UI 2.0 and other mechanics that have been promised for ages gets seen so our hopes can be verified for once this year...or maybe for the 3rd time according to whom u talk to

#1059 Homeless Bill

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 11:38 AM

View PostSoHxPaladin, on 12 September 2013 - 11:15 AM, said:

bill, i just hope that they show the "working product" for groups of people to play around and be shown on the stream so that we know how much of the new UI 2.0 and other mechanics that have been promised for ages gets seen so our hopes can be verified for once this year...or maybe for the 3rd time according to whom u talk to

Bad news, friend: no UI 2.0 until November. And even then, I don't trust that date at all (it's two months away, but it's been two months away for eight months). Launch is not something to look forward to. I'm excited for what's in the works, but the game is sure going to give a bad first impression to reviewers and gamers alike.

#1060 WarHippy

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Posted 12 September 2013 - 12:09 PM

View Postmerz, on 12 September 2013 - 11:13 AM, said:

Cheers. I just wanted to point out that much of the stuff that chronojam and his crew go back to is very much valid - which is when russ and co. have made concrete, unambiguous promises that were subsequently broken. The problem there was precisely that they communicated too much to the community, when lauded developers like valve or bioware tend to say absolutely nothing, give no promises or commitments and try to interact with their 'communities' as little as possible. Thats basic PR/Community management when it comes to these things. The only reason folks like the goons cry out for more communication is in hopes of mis-steps like these that can be used as ammunition against a developer. Its basic social engineering. The more you interact with them, the more they will attempt to manipulate the entire process, control the conversation, etc. You should see the instructions these guys have on their site for trolling Paul. They explicitly state never to do it if you're not recording, and never to do it alone "So that if you drop the ball, someone else can pick up" or something of the sort.

Sorry, but this is nonsense. There have been other devs that actually talk with their communities about things that are going on. Even when the information is something people don't like the backlash is considerably less than what it would be if they just spring it on people with no warning and no explanation. Trying to blame any of this on some sort of Goon conspiracy is just silly.

Edited by WarHippy, 12 September 2013 - 12:28 PM.






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