67 replies to this topic

[paxmortis]

Hi all, i wants to present you a player made Mechwarrior Online Battle Value (MBV). But before this let me explain the history.

History
As we made in the german community a 3025 Stockmech tournament. We use a tonnage limit but quickly we saw that some mechs like the Jagermech would not be used.

So the idea was born to create a own value, the MBV, to bring more mechs to the battlefield for the next tourney.

In a discussion in the german community we start to work together. Finally we had the MBV version 1.7.3a running. This version was first tested during a 3025 Stockmech drop event, with a MBV of 4300 (MBV/10).

It work quite well. No player complain about any team had a unfair advantage. After i saw now the presentation of the tonnage limit from PGI. I think it is time to bring the MBV to an international discussion.

What contains MBV?
The MBV handle the parts of a mech and give them a point based value.

Internal Structure
Armor
Engine
Single and Double Head sinks
Jump Jets
Speed
Weapon Values
Ammo
Equipment (Artemis, AMS, NARC, TAG, ECM, BAP, C.A.S.E)
Heat Efficiency Modifier
Heat Threshold Modifier
Weapon Location Modificator (contain Torso angle/pitch, Arm angle/pitch)
Place for Module Slots

It will calculate the point of a mech with this rules:

Spoiler

IS = Points * 2 * EE Bonus (1,5)
Armor = Points * 4 * FF Bonus (1,1)
Engine = Rating + used additional heat sink place (15*x)
Single Heat sink = 30
Double Heat Sink = 42 (engine internal 60)
Jump jets = 20
Speed (16,2 per MP) = (Engine Rating / Tonnage) * 16,2 * 3
Module Slot = 50
Torso angle = <DEG> / 90
Arm angle = <DEG> / 100 / 2 +1
Torso pitch = <DEG> / 20
Arm pitch = <DEG> / 30

Weapons = Damage - Heat - Cool down + Range + Max Range - Slots - Tons + Speed + Health + Energy weapon bonus * (Weapon type Modificator)
Damage * 10 (LBX * 8) (UAC * 15) (LRM-SRM * 7)
Heat * 4
Cool down *4
Range / 20
Max Range / 80
Slots * 3
Tons * 3
Speed / 40 (Laser weapons 50)
Health * 2

Weapon type Modificator
Small Laser * 0,5
Medium Laser * 1
Large Laser *1,2
PPCs *1,4
Ballistic Weapons AC2/AC5/UAC5 * 0,8
Ballistic Weapons LBX10/AC10/AC20 * 0,9
LRMs * 0,7

Location Modificator
Head, Center/Right/Left Torso = Torso Angle + Torso Pitch -1
Right/Left Arm = Torso Angle + Torso Pitch + Arm angle + Arm Pitch -3


Heat Efficiency Modifier = 2*(1-EXP(Heat Efficiency)/0,35))
Heat Threshold Modifier = (Threshold-40)*0,015+1

Ammo
Ballistic Weapons = Shots * Damage / 3
LRMs = Shots * Damage / 4
SRMs = Shots * Damage / 3
AMS = 15
NARC = 10

Equipment
Artemis = Weapon Value * 1,2
AMS = 150
NARC = 50
TAG = 120
ECM = 300
BAP = 200
C.A.S.E = 50

Total = IS + Armor + Engine + Heat sinks + Speed + (Weapons Total * Heat Efficiency Modifier * Threshold Modifier) + Ammo

Mechlist
We create when a list of all stockmechs and use the 3025 for our field test. As explain above it works quite well. Here the list with MBV / 10 it is easier to calculate for the players.

Spoiler

Type Techlevel Link MBV/10

Light Mechs

Locust
LCT-1V 3025 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...i=50000&l=stock 204

Commando
COM-2D 3025 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...lab#i=5&l=stock 199
COM-1B 3025 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=26&l=stock 200
COM-1D 3025 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=27&l=stock 181
COM-3A 3025 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...lab#i=6&l=stock 176
COM-TDK 3050 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=57&l=stock 296

Spider
SDR-5V 3025 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=51&l=stock 229
SDR-5D 3025 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=52&l=stock 210
SDR-5K 3025 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=53&l=stock 224

Jenner
JRD-7D 3025 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...lab#i=3&l=stock 247
JRD-7F 3025 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...lab#i=4&l=stock 275
JRD-7K 3050 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=20&l=stock 260
JRD-7F© 3050 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=76&l=stock 423
JRD-7D(S) 3050 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=86&l=stock 408

Raven
RVN-2X 3025 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=34&l=stock 249
RVN-4X 3025 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=35&l=stock 272
RVN-3L 3050 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=33&l=stock 336

Medium Mechs

Cicada
CDA-2A 3025 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=37&l=stock 236
CDA-2B 3025 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=38&l=stock 223
CDA-3C 3025 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=39&l=stock 242
CDA-3M 3050 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=36&l=stock 316
CDA-X5 3050 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=64&l=stock 455

Blackjack
BJ-1 3025 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=77&l=stock 283
BJ-1X 3025 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=79&l=stock 299
BJ-1DC 3025 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=78&l=stock 273
BJ-3 3050 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=80&l=stock 346

Centurion
CN9-A 3025 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...lab#i=7&l=stock 285
CN9-AL 3025 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=28&l=stock 348
CN9-YLW 3025 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=45&l=stock 325
CN9-D 3050 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=29&l=stock 327

Hunchback
HBK-4G 3025 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...lab#i=1&l=stock 320
HBK-4H 3025 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...lab#i=9&l=stock 326
HBK-4J 3025 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=21&l=stock 334
HBK-4P 3025 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...lab#i=2&l=stock 407
HBK-4SP 3025 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=22&l=stock 375
HBK-4P© 3050 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=85&l=stock 520

Trebuchet
TBT-5N 3025 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=62&l=stock 305
TBT-5J 3025 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=61&l=stock 346
TBT-7K 3025 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=63&l=stock 290
TBT-7M 3050 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=59&l=stock 426
TBT-3C 3050 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=60&l=stock 432

Kintaro
KTO-18 3025 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=95&l=stock 348
KTO-19 3050 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=96&l=stock 350
KTO-20 3050 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=94&l=stock 364
KTO-GB 3050 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=93&l=stock 438

Shadow Hawk
SHD-2D 3025 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...i=50001&l=stock 339

Heavy Mechs

Dragon
DRG-1N 3025 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=10&l=stock 327
DRG-1C 3025 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=11&l=stock 347
DRG-5N 3050 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=23&l=stock 326
DRG-5N© 3050 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=74&l=stock 491
DRG-Fang 3050 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=55&l=stock 353
DRG-Flame 3050 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=56&l=stock 371

Quickdraw
QKD-4G 3025 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=82&l=stock 356
QKD-4H 3025 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=83&l=stock 331
QKD-5K 3050 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=84&l=stock 479

Catapult
CPLT-C1 3025 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=12&l=stock 361
CPLT-A1 3025 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=13&l=stock 361
CPLT-C4 3025 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=24&l=stock 347
CPLT-K2 3025 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=19&l=stock 407

Jagermech
JM6-S 3025 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=67&l=stock 270
JM6-A 3025 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=66&l=stock 256
JM6-DD 3050 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=65&l=stock 305
JM6-FB 3050 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=81&l=stock 466

Thunderbolt
TDR-5S 3025 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...i=50002&l=stock 406

Cataphract
CTF-1X 3025 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=41&l=stock 369
CTF-2X 3025 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=42&l=stock 385
CTF-4X 3025 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=44&l=stock 399
CTF-3D 3050 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=40&l=stock 402
CTF-IM 3050 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=54&l=stock 376

Assault Mechs

Awesome
AWS-8Q 3025 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=14&l=stock 485
AWS-8R 3025 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=15&l=stock 475
AWS-8T 3025 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=30&l=stock 472
AWS-8V 3025 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=31&l=stock 490
AWS-9M 3050 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=32&l=stock 560
AWS-PB 3050 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=58&l=stock 579

Victor
VTR-9B 3025 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=89&l=stock 393
VTR-9S 3025 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=90&l=stock 381
VTR-9K 3050 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=88&l=stock 442
VTR-DS 3050 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=87&l=stock 553

Battlemaster
BLR-1G 3025 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...i=50003&l=stock 470

Stalker
STK-3F 3025 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=47&l=stock 438
STK-3H 3025 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=48&l=stock 408
STK-4N 3025 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=49&l=stock 444
STK-5M 3050 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=46&l=stock 484
STK-5S 3050 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=50&l=stock 434
STK-M 3050 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=75&l=stock 454

Highlander
HGN-733 3025 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=71&l=stock 463
HGN-733C 3025 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=72&l=stock 455
HGN-733P 3025 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=73&l=stock 501
HGN-732 3050 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=70&l=stock 496
HGN-HM 3050 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=69&l=stock 558

Atlas
AS7-D 3025 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=16&l=stock 514
AS7-DC 3025 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=17&l=stock 508
AS7-RS 3025 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=18&l=stock 514
AS7-K 3050 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=25&l=stock 542
AS7-RS© 3050 http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ab#i=92&l=stock 617

As you can see in this list a Jagermech is cheaper as a hunchback. This depend about the value in a MWO battle.

It is hard to explain here every mech and the whole system only with a forums post. Especially for a german with bad english like me.

I upload a html file contained in a Zip. You can download it here:

MBV Version 2.0.0
https://docs.google....dit?usp=sharing

MBV Database 2.0.0 Update 26
http://mbv.36thdieron.de/



It contain the whole MBV with every stock mech, the calculations etc. I hope it makes it easier to understand.

Of course i will answer every questions about it as good as i can.


Why i make this post?
A value based MM would represent the mech in the field better as only the tonnage.

So i hope it will help to getting a value base matchmaking in MWO and of course to hear your feedback about it.

Edited by paxmortis, 14 May 2014 - 02:06 AM.

[Typhoon Storm 2142]

Not going to happen. The devs already have their own secret system how to mess up matchmaking. Using the original BT BV would not work either, since too much stuff has been changed from canon already. They would have to make a new system, much like yours, but I'm sure they won't.

Edited by Typhoon Storm 2142, 28 August 2013 - 07:18 AM.

[paxmortis]

We will see whats the future brings. Often enought the devs surprise us in both direction.

Since this times come the MBV can use for tournaments, leagues etc. Like we made it all ready with our 3025 tourney.

If you wants for example make a stock mech only tournament. I think it will work fine, too.

[Syllogy]

How do you balance a moron against a sharpshooter in the same mech?

[paxmortis]

Thats not a part of a mech value, which should handle by the ELO system.

[Karl Streiger]

Syllogy, on 28 August 2013 - 08:20 AM, said:

How do you balance a moron against a sharpshooter in the same mech?

When I brought another system you ask the same question? Have you forgotten the answer?

paxmortis, on 28 August 2013 - 08:22 AM, said:

Thats not a part of a mech value, which should handle by the ELO system.

Well there is it.

BV is just the Mech - the SUM of a company BV is the sum of each Mech multipled with its ELO - BV representation.
For example a new player ELO modification could be 1. a low ELO 0.8 a high ELO 2-3

In addition and the only way to go for Random Play - is that the sum of BV for a premade team get another modification for example of 1.2

Example: a Lance of 4 heavy Mechs premade veteran players ELO MOD is 1.4
(JagerMech , Catapult , Catapract , Victor - will have the same battlevalue as a lance of Champion AS7-RS consisting of new players that just have bought the Mech when they startet to play the game. Elo rating is 0.9-1

Right from my guts i would think the RS would win - but they are newbs the others a veterans with better communication - so maybe the battle is even.

Much better as the premade weigh restrictions (better than nothing)
because that will result in even weight classes on both teams - resulting in a win of the preamde player - as long as there is no better way of communication - and the missing identificator or targets in an ECM cloud.

[paxmortis]

I upload MBV Version 1.7.4 here:
https://docs.google....dit?usp=sharing

or

online on the 36th Dieron Regular webside
http://mbv.36thdieron.de/mbv.html

Changes:
Weapons - Modify all weapons with the right values
Gauss - The Gauss get a 0,9 value modificator
Orion - Adding the orion mech to MBV

Edited by paxmortis, 13 September 2013 - 08:55 AM.

[Quardak]

Quite well. Funny 1 single Player is capable to bring a system to balance Mechs + Loadouts

[paxmortis]

Sorry i saw that i post the wrong url of our 3025 Stockmech tourney season 1

Now the links are the right ones.

Quardak, on 13 September 2013 - 08:27 AM, said:

Quite well. Funny 1 single Player is capable to bring a system to balance Mechs + Loadouts

If PGI wants it they can have it

Edited by paxmortis, 13 September 2013 - 08:59 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Quardak, on 13 September 2013 - 08:27 AM, said:

Quite well. Funny 1 single Player is capable to bring a system to balance Mechs + Loadouts

I have to admit, that even the holiness of TT did need a long way to implement BattleValue.
I believe in my copy of the Tactical Handbook or the CityTech rule book - there was another value - a great translation of C-Bills - this had worked great for campaigns - but was not sufficient to balance scenarios.

So it lasted some years till the BV was born and the first BV worked only for IS tech 1 vs Clans...so you needed the BV 2.0 - to find some balance - and still its highly depend if the players minmax there chassis or if they are bound to stock mechs.

However the main advantage of BV should be clear - some may never see them necessary - but that's not their fault.

[paxmortis]

Version 1.7.5 released.

Damage, cooldown, heat and duration was removed from the formular. Instead of them DPS and HPS will used.

Depend on this changes many weapon modificators was changed to balance the weapons.

For example:
An ER-PPC has now an value of 226,50, thats near the same as an AC2 (170,12) with one ton ammo (50) (total=220,12)
Two small laser (2*72,47=144,94) cost as much as two MGs (2*41,60=) with one ton of ammo (66,67) (total=149,87).

Online you can find the value here: http://mbv.36thdieron.de/

Thanks in advanced for your feedback.

[paxmortis]

MBV 1.7.6 uploaded with the new values of the UAC5 and the flamer. Link: http://mbv.36thdieron.de/mbv.html

Third field testing for Techlevel 3025 at 10/06 and 10/20

After this in the 3025 Stockmech Tourney - Season 2: http://mwomercs.com/...urney-season-2/

Edited by paxmortis, 17 September 2013 - 09:51 AM.

[paxmortis]

Version 2.0.0 uploaded to http://mbv.36thdieron.de/mbv.html

Quote

Changes:
Ammo - Explosiv ammo 50 points per ton, non explosiv 25

Gauss - Mod Change the modificator from 0,9 to 1

AMS - Value reduced from 150 to 100

NARC - Value reduced from 100 to 50

Head - Change the HP from 9 to the right value 15

Angel/Pitch - Set the right value of arm/torso angle/pitch for CDA, BJ, CN9, HBK, TBT and two VTR

Fixing - Find a couple of formular mistakes and correct them

For now the table will not longer modified because we will change to a SQL DB and gamefile version.

It can be found here: http://mbv.36thdieron.de/

[Kin3ticX]

in the formula;
2*(1-EXP(Heat Efficiency)/0,35))

what is "EXP"??

and, Can you supply a spreadsheet of the template with cell references if its of no trouble to you?

Edited by Kin3ticX, 21 September 2013 - 02:12 AM.

[paxmortis]

My english is not as good as i can it explain right. So let me show you a diagram.



I have all this additional in an open office file. If you wants read it you can get it.

[Kin3ticX]

okay, I think I understand that now. However, I am stuck with a really big BV because I am having trouble reverse-engineering "+HE/Th" mod and then counting final MBV, BV 2.0, etc etc. Please help. Also, for the Yen Lo Wang, the Modifier for the arm is really big too, not sure if its right...

link to open office spreadsheet:
http://www.filedropper.com/bvtest

[Crashingmail]

HE = Heat Efficiency and Th is the Heat Threshold modificator.

If you are trying to do this in PHP here is a little Code Snipped:

$heat_dissipation  = (($engine_hs - $engine_add_hs) * ($mech_db_ary[$id]['isDHS'] == 0 ? $item_ary_full[$hs_id]['cooling'] : 0.2)) + (($mech_db_ary[$id]['heatsinks'] - $engine_hs + $engine_add_hs) * $item_ary_full[$hs_id]['cooling']);
$heat_eff	= $heat_dissipation / $hps;
$heat_mod	= 2*(1-exp(-$heat_eff / 0.35));
$heat_tresh	= 30 + (($engine_hs - $engine_add_hs) * ($mech_db_ary[$id]['isDHS'] == 0 ? -$item_ary_full[$hs_id]['heatbase'] : 2.0)) + (($mech_db_ary[$id]['heatsinks'] - $engine_hs + $engine_add_hs) * -$item_ary_full[$hs_id]['heatbase']);;
$heat_tresh_mod   = ($heat_tresh - 40) * 0.015 + 1;

Some explanations:
$mech_db_ary[$id]['isDHS'] this if the Mech has got DHS build in.
$mech_db_ary[$id]['heatsinks'] is the calculation, how many heatsinks the Mech has got
$item_ary_full[$hs_id]['heatbase'] is read from the game files for either SHS or DHS
$hs_id shows either 3000 or 3001 for SHS or DHS.

[paxmortis]

The arm modifier is right and yes the machine has a high MBV / 10 with 484 points

But you have here a great warmachine. 86 kph base speed, 60% heat efficiency, you have 2x UAC5 in the arm with 120° yaw and 60° pitch.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...0bc1c3a85678145

For me this is a first class mech design. The only weekness is the XL engine but thats the reason it give no modifier for XL and non XL engines.

I upload you the MBV ods with your mech to the google drive.

https://docs.google....dit?usp=sharing

[Kin3ticX]

ahhh, I feel so dumb, never realized EXP was an excel function. These are very cool tools I can play with now. Thanks for the help.

Edited by Kin3ticX, 21 September 2013 - 10:02 AM.

[paxmortis]

No problem, your welcome.