126 replies to this topic

[Butane9000]

Chronojam, on 30 August 2013 - 01:59 PM, said:

Oh man I remember that. Man what a joke this all amounted to today. Good post OP.

[Rizzwind]

Star Captain Brofist, on 30 August 2013 - 02:07 PM, said:

A year ago MWO was pretty legit. I wonder what happened?

I.G.P.

[Tolkien]

Rizzwind, on 31 August 2013 - 11:11 AM, said:

I.G.P.

Just to play devil's advocate, I have my doubts that IGP is the source of the problem.

Here's my reasoning:

The president of Infinite Games Publishing is a guy called Kelly Zmak.

Kelly Zmak has been in this field a long time and even worked on past mechwarrior titles such as the original Mechwarrior and MW3 and MW3 priate's moon. The man was around the series back in its glory days and has to know a thing or two about executing on a schedule.
http://www.mobygames...veloperId,3299/

Given that this guy worked on MW and MW3 I wouldn't be surprised if he was instrumental in getting the IP opened up.

Granted 3pv might have been his meddling but I just have trouble believing he is the cause of the repeated failures to deliver on promised content around here.

Edited by Tolkien, 31 August 2013 - 11:30 AM.

[C E Dwyer]

Best way to rub noses in it..well done OP..10 bonus points..

so how much of that over a year on is in place....ohh yes..nothing..

I guess its to big to talk about here but hang around and wait for the next comand chair post..

[C E Dwyer]

Tolkien, on 31 August 2013 - 11:26 AM, said:

Just to play devil's advocate, I have my doubts that IGP is the source of the problem.

Here's my reasoning:

The president of Infinite Games Publishing is a guy called Kelly Zmak.

Kelly Zmak has been in this field a long time and even worked on past mechwarrior titles such as the original Mechwarrior and MW3 and MW3 priate's moon. The man was around the series back in its glory days and has to know a thing or two about executing on a schedule.
http://www.mobygames...veloperId,3299/

Given that this guy worked on MW and MW3 I wouldn't be surprised if he was instrumental in getting the IP opened up.

Granted 3pv might have been his meddling but I just have trouble believing he is the cause of the repeated failures to deliver on promised content around here.

I actually think that IGP and PGI are basically the same beast..

you look at IGP's rather optimistic claim they publish AAA titles and whats actually in the stable...

This

Magicthegathering warrior..tactics, Zzzzz..sorry the grind had me comatose for a moment

and that other thing...

all developing at a snails pace all failing to achieve anything close to whats promised, and the fact that none of the heads of PGI have been changed after 2 years of close to total fail.

If I was running IGP and just a business partner with no ties I'd be demanding heads or removing the backing, because of the damage failed products were doing to my credibility.


However if I was cosy behind the scene, I would be taking my cut and saying just carry on, milking them, soul brother, I can allways put IGP into recievership and start fresh with IDK

[Tolkien]

Those are good points, and I have no way of knowing what's up behind the scenes. There was that funny reddit by a goon suggesting that IGP and the goons were responsible for everything but I take that with a grain of rock salt.

[Uba]

Tolkien, on 31 August 2013 - 11:52 AM, said:

Those are good points, and I have no way of knowing what's up behind the scenes. There was that funny reddit by a goon suggesting that IGP and the goons were responsible for everything but I take that with a grain of rock salt.

That wasn't a goon who made that post on reddit.

Edited by Uba, 31 August 2013 - 12:20 PM.

[Akulakhan]

Man, this game's continuing meltdown is quality entertainment. It's also crushingly sad. Not being a founder I don't feel quite the sting of betrayal many of you do...but I've put plenty of money into this game anyhow and do feel such a large sense of disappointment.

Missing these targets by nearly a year is just so inexcusable, the jumpsniping meta that's universally reviled has been in place for five months now, although it could be so easily changed in roughly 30 seconds of editing numbers in an XML file. The other features are more complex, obviously, but there's also been no progress in anything except third-person view, which, what? 95 percent of us didn't want anyway and the game was doing fine without.

But I do believe MWO will be listed as a cautionary tale to people who are obsessive fans of something knowing when snake oil is being catered to them. The Founders are generally intelligent people with a good head on their shoulders that were swindled for nostalgia, and now the bait-and-switch is apparent and perhaps at just the right time for some sort of poetic justice as this game launches barebones, with reducing performance, a stale meta, and two game modes that are essentially the same.

I'd give anything to have this game in its prime, at the height of RHoD and a bustling and smacktalking competitive tier of players. But many of those are gone now. Ah well, to what could have been.

[Chronojam]

A minor correction, but the jumpsniping's been an issue for more than five months now, actually. Tomorrow, it will be September; launch looms. And it's easily been seven months of the high-alpha long-range metagame best demonstrated by jumpsniping, depending on your own experience and Elo level. In my own records it is down that by February it was already a big problem for organized play, and by March it became a common sight even in general pick-up games.

[Rizzwind]

Tolkien, on 31 August 2013 - 11:26 AM, said:

Just to play devil's advocate, I have my doubts that IGP is the source of the problem.

Here's my reasoning:

The president of Infinite Games Publishing is a guy called Kelly Zmak.

Kelly Zmak has been in this field a long time and even worked on past mechwarrior titles such as the original Mechwarrior and MW3 and MW3 priate's moon. The man was around the series back in its glory days and has to know a thing or two about executing on a schedule.
http://www.mobygames...veloperId,3299/

Given that this guy worked on MW and MW3 I wouldn't be surprised if he was instrumental in getting the IP opened up.

Granted 3pv might have been his meddling but I just have trouble believing he is the cause of the repeated failures to deliver on promised content around here.

Some of your point is good and taken well. But the Gag on PGI is from IGP. Up till the point that IGP stepped in PGI was dropping with players open with what they had in the works. You could not log into TS3 without seeing one or more PGI Devs. 1 month after IGP took control of the pay role all this stopped cold.

[zorak ramone]

General Taskeen, on 31 August 2013 - 06:31 AM, said:

And has been pointed out many times, like by myself, those that actually do want to play in more classic style Mechs from CBT, they are no where near as amazing as a no-brainer high efficiency customized builds, and thus are screwed out of that play-style.

The stock awesome 8Q was an amazing mech in CBT (yes even with SHS), and it sucked completely in MWO. This is entirely due to the way MWO translated CBT into realtime.

Additionally, the idea that stock CBT mechs were all terrible is simply not true. If you asked for examples (and if you know anything about CBT you shouldn't have to), I'd start with the HBK-4P and BNC-3S in 3025, and end with the Hellstar. Somewhere along the way, we'd meet the Rifleman IIC and the Davion Stalker with the TC.

[JudgeDeathCZ]

Sarcasm in OP post is too damn high !

[Donnie Silveray]

I guess the idea that game design changes is foreign to lots of folk. Granted the devs should have kept their goals within reason and not made hard dates. I guess hit detection is hurting them so much they can't put time to balancing.

[Uba]

Donnie Silveray, on 31 August 2013 - 06:15 PM, said:

I guess the idea that game design changes is foreign to lots of folk. Granted the devs should have kept their goals within reason and not made hard dates. I guess hit detection is hurting them so much they can't put time to balancing.

Despite your ad hominem I'll bite.

Game development obviously goes through changes, this is something no one can really deny. However part of what PGI has said and done is distinctly different than simply "they decided to change things for development/design reasons."

Those comments were all made in, during, and following the release of the founders program purchases being available. One can see it as a form of promotional marketing to get people to purchase a founder's pack to support a game many fans and gamers have been asking for for years. One could also look at it as simply promising too much. However none of those design promises have been kept. Some could claim this is a "bait & switch", which is illegal in most western countries for a business to do with a product and how they market it to consumers.

The only design changes made, out of what they commented on, was to third person view being a part of the game. Back in 2012 PGI said it wasn't, yet here we are nearly a year later and its in place and is the default view mode. There is no community warfare, one of the sticking points for competitive play. The weapon balance issues have changed a large portion of the gameplay to the favor of poptart snipers, with little patches that actually corrected such a heavy imbalance.

The goal PGI stated weren't outside of reason, and the hard dates are debatable in regards to whether or not they should have been announced. The issue is the communication, and lack there of, with a lot of the playerbase who have paid for and helped support this game's financial security during the past year. PGI has consistently either chosen not to comment or skirted around any questions about the issues the players have. They've also made bad decisions in terms of community management and PR that have furthered the issue, which is not the fault of a sole person like Russ claimed. Stating concrete things such as "Third person view will never be a part of the game" and the like forced people to believe what they were being old by the developers. If you were told by any business that you giving them money would mean a specifically detailed thing, by their own wording, and then they go back on that promise, that is an issue and in some cases (and countries) illegal.

The game has far too many issues for PGi to handle adequately and competently even if they started in May making those steps to correct the problems. At this point, they might as well strip the design team and hire people more skilled to begin making the steps to the right direction and maybe people will be happy with the product they were lead to believe would be developed.

[Solis Obscuri]

NARCoMAN, on 30 August 2013 - 04:18 PM, said:

Now I remember why I bought this founder package. I have forgotten since February. I wonder if they meant 2014? Maybe their calendars were off in that day? Paul seems to be really bad at fixing these weapon damage numbers, maybe he set the calendars to 2013 that day by mistake?

Maybe time works different in Canada.

[Akulakhan]

Chronojam, on 31 August 2013 - 04:16 PM, said:

A minor correction, but the jumpsniping's been an issue for more than five months now, actually. Tomorrow, it will be September; launch looms. And it's easily been seven months of the high-alpha long-range metagame best demonstrated by jumpsniping, depending on your own experience and Elo level. In my own records it is down that by February it was already a big problem for organized play, and by March it became a common sight even in general pick-up games.

Well, if you wanna get reeeeaaaal precise, it all began with the release of the Cataphract and the buff to JJs just after. Jumpsniping was huge in eight mans by January, but didn't really permeate the pug queue until around the release of the Heavy Metal and the ELO system, when we all thought we had to be tryhards, all the time. And with that, we had jumpsniping assaults to play with instead of jumpsniping heavies.

Regardless, it's been painful.

Edited by Akulakhan, 31 August 2013 - 09:48 PM.

[Tolkien]

Akulakhan, on 31 August 2013 - 09:47 PM, said:

Well, if you wanna get reeeeaaaal precise, it all began with the release of the Cataphract and the buff to JJs just after. Jumpsniping was huge in eight mans by January, but didn't really permeate the pug queue until around the release of the Heavy Metal and the ELO system, when we all thought we had to be tryhards, all the time. And with that, we had jumpsniping assaults to play with instead of jumpsniping heavies.

Regardless, it's been painful.

Was it jumpsniping that caused them to remove the pinpoint skill affecting convergence and make it instant? I seem to recall that before jumpsniping weapons took a second or two to converge when you changed ranges, whereas after they converged instantly (to make hitting poptarts practical?) Maybe if they gave heavies and assaults more jumpjet burn time but lower acceleration it would fix poptarting. This would make them very slowly rise out of cover making them vulnerable to return fire.

Rizzwind, on 31 August 2013 - 04:29 PM, said:

Some of your point is good and taken well. But the Gag on PGI is from IGP. Up till the point that IGP stepped in PGI was dropping with players open with what they had in the works. You could not log into TS3 without seeing one or more PGI Devs. 1 month after IGP took control of the pay role all this stopped cold.

I thought IGP was in charge of the money from day 1? Or was it just from the founders program on?

[GalaxyBluestar]

Star Captain Brofist, on 30 August 2013 - 02:07 PM, said:

A year ago MWO was pretty legit. I wonder what happened?

Rizzwind, on 31 August 2013 - 11:11 AM, said:

I.G.P.

Tolkien, on 31 August 2013 - 11:26 AM, said:

Just to play devil's advocate, I have my doubts that IGP is the source of the problem.

Here's my reasoning:

some facts

You call that devils advocate? Try this with full tinfoil hat addition…

MW is a long standing franchise held together by FAsa until Microsoft brought it out, following MW4 came mech assault which eventually became the freebee purchased with their consol. Fast forward and Microsoft have done little with the ip and refuse to let anyone else use it… until the stars align. A new consol on the way, a small group with members who know about MW, perfect fall guys to stir up a new freebee game for their new consol. that was the selling condition, igp only gets the MW IP so long as they distribute it through Microsoft… and their consols. The little dev team takes the nerd punishment for the secret operation known as “get suckers to make our arcade game via sim nerds so we don’t have to shell out cash and get the flack from them for another poor mech game.”

Tin foil hat says: await pgi to hand over the project to a Microsoft backed dev team who will push MWO further towards xbox kiddies.

Conspiracy theories are fun… or are they?

[Tolkien]

Let me just put my silver foil hat on (the brain beams they use now can get through aluminium no problem....)


There we go, now let's indulge in some conspiracy theory.

I do remember seeing a twitter post from Russ Bullock or one of the other PGI higher ups a few weeks ago mentioning how he had just been to a presentation about 'What XBOX ONE can do for independent developers' and thinking it was great. So while I don't want to put too much faith in the belief they are pushing towards an XBone title there is some corroborating evidence. At the same time PGI has produced XBOX titles or ports of titles before, so it's entirely within their normal business to keep abreast of such things. I would love to think they aren't wasting the money of founders who paid for a 1pv simulator game to make a dumbed down Xbox title, but sleazier stuff has happened and it would help explain how they are using the manpower of 50 people yet progressing so damn slowly.

To be fair I don't mind the game getting an Xbox port, I just find it sleazy that features the PC crowd paid in for are constantly delayed while they work on the Xbox port - assuming there is an Xbox port.

If there is an Xbox port keep in mind that there is apparently a rule from microsoft against mixing multiplayer across platforms, so we PC users will not get to cave their skulls in while they fumble with a game pad (or so I am told) though that would be fun (for us PC users). But it also won't help to improve the population diversity. It would be a strict division of the community between PC and XBone, as far as I can tell.

In terms of whether such a port would be such a smart business proposition, I am honestly not sure.


The customization system is far more complex than what most people are willing to deal with, so I am not certain how well this would be received by the console crowd. Compare and contrast a game like Deus Ex from 1999/2000 with bioshock infinite. Both are top tier shooters of their time with 'RPG elements' in that you have to allocate skill points (infusions) in both. Games in general have been undergoing streamlining for the last decade and while it's not universal, more complicated games tend to appeal to narrower subsets of the population, and console games tend to be most simplified of them all.

Add to that all of the complex in-game systems like the interactions between modules, ECM, Artimis, BAP, TAG, seismic, UAV and it gets pretty hard to explain how spotting works unless you can sit down with someone for a 10 minute chat.

Add in torso twisting, arm lock, movement quirks, hill climbing and jumpjets and I think you have exceeded the patience threshold of most.

Not to mention having to set up and utilize weapon groups, and multiple crosshairs, while managing heat and ghost heat.

I'll conclude by saying I won't be terribly surprised if there is an XBONE port already in the works and they have been betraying the trust of the founders by throwing man hours after it that are sorely needed delivering on their original promises, but I don't know how well received the game would even be.

/foil hat off

Edited by Tolkien, 01 September 2013 - 01:42 AM.

[Krondor]

NARCoMAN, on 30 August 2013 - 04:18 PM, said:

Now I remember why I bought this founder package. I have forgotten since February.

?

Yea, that makes at least two of us. I actually forgot about some of these things PGI talked about. No matter, I haven't seriously played this game since January and I haven't played at all in 2 months.