184 replies to this topic

[wanderer]

Alexander Caine, on 15 June 2012 - 01:35 PM, said:

True, but wasting your time dude. The MW4 pros think they know what mechs actually do/are like/can fit because of the godawful game.

I envision HUGE tears after launch.

I'd bet good money that MW4 players are going to be confused somewhat when they actually get "in the cockpit", but that'd be a sucker bet on my part.

[JHare]

TT, I vote AS7-K over whatever the Dual HGauss Fafnir variant is. Twenty years older, and still gonna win.

In a video game that doesn't add the nerfs for HGauss that TT has (PSR for firing, no cone of fire, etc.), Fafnir will win. It can 1 or 2 shot nearly anything

[SideSt3p]

Modified Atlas designed around physical/close in Combat.

My idea is to reinforce the fists and basically mount a large 400XL engine with TSM. Then 2 LPL and 6 MPL with 1 ERPPC. Max the armor out, slap in 15 DHS and an ECM and see what kind of havoc you can wreak.

I imagine it'd be pretty much like this all the time:

[blkhrt11214]

wanderer, on 15 June 2012 - 01:31 PM, said:

If you're using MW4 for an idea of the capacity of an MWO design, I can tell you this: Your data is not only useless, but will give you completely the wrong idea as to the actual function, capacity, or even potential layout of a design. Microsoft built a game with Battletech-shaped Mechs and slapped "Mechwarrior" on it, and then added weapons that don't exist in-universe or do so in name-only, having completely different effects in many cases from their tabletop namesake.

Take whatever you learned in MW4 about how 'Mechs work and forget it. As an intro to MWO, it's worse than knowing nothing at all.

MW4 does have a value, knowing how to drive the mech and deal with the torso twist while trying to fire your weapons at a moving target at the same time getting fired upon is a big advantage.
How will TT help you with aiming your guns at a Mech shooting at you?

Knowing how to drive a car is one thing BEING able to drive a car is what a first person shooter is about!

I bet everyone waiting to play this game has played copy of Micros MW4 recently , and if you say you havent your probably lying!

[MiG77]

blkhrt11214, on 15 June 2012 - 03:57 PM, said:

MW4 does have a value, knowing how to drive the mech and deal with the torso twist while trying to fire your weapons at a moving target at the same time getting fired upon is a big advantage.
How will TT help you with aiming your guns at a Mech shooting at you?

Knowing how to drive a car is one thing BEING able to drive a car is what a first person shooter is about!

I bet everyone waiting to play this game has played copy of Micros MW4 recently , and if you say you havent your probably lying!

Playing windows solitaire has value as well as you learn to use mouse Joking aside what Wanderer/Alexander ment was that MW4 mechlab builds wont work aswell in MWO.

[blkhrt11214]

MiG77, on 15 June 2012 - 04:10 PM, said:

Playing windows solitaire has value as well as you learn to use mouse Joking aside what Wanderer/Alexander ment was that MW4 mechlab builds wont work aswell in MWO.

LOL Well unless you are on the Dev team we have no real idea do we? ( as far as Mechlab )
Putting a mech together is just a matter of reading the info provided, we still dont really know how much things have been translated untill the game goes live. Granted some weapons will always be better then others id much rather mount a Large Laser then a Small but if a cant afford one I will make do.
I doubt much of the TT rules will be in this game as well, video games and TT games are NEVER I repeat NEVER the same things will be changed we must deal with it.

[Joseph Mallan]

Valkyrie Onyx, on 13 June 2012 - 10:15 PM, said:

KODIAK BEATS EVERYONE!


BO YA!!

Kodiak Fails to win against a Stone Rhino (aka Behemoth!)! I do love a Kodi but the heat generated is stifling and the short range fails against the range & accuracy of a Stone Rhino.
...
...That also doesn't look like a traditional weapon load out for a Kodi!

[MiG77]

blkhrt11214, on 15 June 2012 - 04:21 PM, said:

LOL Well unless you are on the Dev team we have no real idea do we? ( as far as Mechlab )
Putting a mech together is just a matter of reading the info provided, we still dont really know how much things have been translated untill the game goes live. Granted some weapons will always be better then others id much rather mount a Large Laser then a Small but if a cant afford one I will make do.
I doubt much of the TT rules will be in this game as well, video games and TT games are NEVER I repeat NEVER the same things will be changed we must deal with it.

But IMO point was that those coming MW4 have rude shock is because... (drum roll) MW4 differ that much from TT rules (and MWO tries to follow them).

[TKG]

SideSt3p, on 15 June 2012 - 02:53 PM, said:

Modified Atlas designed around physical/close in Combat.

My idea is to reinforce the fists and basically mount a large 400XL engine with TSM. Then 2 LPL and 6 MPL with 1 ERPPC. Max the armor out, slap in 15 DHS and an ECM and see what kind of havoc you can wreak.

I imagine it'd be pretty much like this all the time:

I agree I'd say that might be the best if not in close running for the best images of an atlas doing what it does best; reminding the opposition that what matters is if you've got a multi-ton fist busting through your cockpit your weapons wont stop you from becoming a wet splat somewhere inside your mech.

Edited by TKG, 15 June 2012 - 05:02 PM.

[MiG77]

That Atlas Image reminds me of... Warhammer 40000. ->spacemarine pounding on dreadnought

[MechRaccoon]

blkhrt11214, on 15 June 2012 - 12:20 PM, said:

I know its not the best test platform but I ran a bunch of instant action missions on MW4 Mercs with several weapon load outs and the Fafnir beat the pants off the Atlas ( I used each mech vs the computer on Elite ) untill I used your load out with the LRMs and it made a difference.
I did use Clan LRM20s though...

... Cant wait for this game...

Yeah...the Faf might have beat the pantaloons off the Atlas in MW4M, but in TT, it probably ain't the best mech. I have not used one in TT, but here are some flaws with it's main weapon: the Heavy Gauss.

1. Quite weak at long distances because the round is so friggin' heavy.

2. Because the round is so friggin' heavy, there is not much ammo per ton, so you will often find yourself running dry if you fire them too much. If you DO have the capabilities to give the HGR's a good ammo supply, it will hog space and weight, meaning less space for armor and secondary weapons. Also, the Heavy Gauss Rifle itself is pretty heavy itself. Long story short, THIS THING IS A SPACE/WEIGHT HOG.

3. Like all Gauss Rifles, if they get a critical hit on them, they blow up for lots of damage.

4. The recoil is so massive, that some mechs can be KNOCKED DOWN from firing it.



This same recoil problem means it can't be mounted on vehicle turrets (i.e, tank turrets) or a mech's arms. The recoil is so massive that the arm/turret would be BLOWN OFF.


So basically, the Faf would need to deal with these:


-Not much ammo for it's primary weapon.

-It's secondary weapons don't do enough damage and don't have enough range to ensure it's survival on the field in case of a ammo GUN explosion or simply running out of slugs.

-the primary weapons have an embarrassingly short range, so any mech with some long ranged firepower and enough ammo will be the death of this thing.

- "I fired both my Heavy Gauss rifles, I fell down, and I can't get back up because of how heavy this mech is! HELP! Wait, is that an enemy Atlas!? AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGH-krrZZZZZZZZZt * other static noises* " -Last transmission of a Fafnir pilot

Atlas.

Edited by MechRaccoon, 15 June 2012 - 07:33 PM.

[trycksh0t]

If you're comparing the FNR-5 Fafnir (3063) to the Atlas, you'd have to look at the AS7-S2 (3061), since they'd have access to the same tech.
Speed is identical, armor is also nearly identical (304 points for the Atlas, 307 for the Fafnir). It really comes down to firepower, and I'll take an -S2 Atlas every time. The Fafnir is entirely dependent on those Heavy Gauss Rifles, it only carries 2 ERMLs and a single MPL otherwise. The -S2 has the Artemis IV LRM-15 with 2 tons of ammo, paired ERLL, and a Heavy Gauss with 16 shots. The Atlas provides a better damage potential over ranges than the Fafnir, which only excels within 400 meters, give or take.

[Jacob Davion]

Okay, well, here's the problem. Are comparing stock BattleMech models or can we put in other models that are more comparable such as the Atlas AS7-S2? If we're sticking with an Atlas AS7-D vs a Fafnir then it'll easily go to the Fafnir every time. However, the Atlas AS7-S2 is a better match for the Fafnir. It already has one of the Fafnir's Heavy Gauss Rifles, and thus, can dish out half it's firepower at close range. However, a longer ranged fight can go more in favor of the Atlas. Here's why, the Fafnir is armed with two Heavy Gauss Rifles, two ER Medium Lasers, and one Medium Pulse Laser. The Atlas AS7-S2 is armed with one Heavy Gauss Rifle, two ER Large Lasers, and an Artemis IV slaved LRM-15. At range, where the Fafnir's two ER Medium Lasers and the Medium Pulse Laser can't reach, the Atlas's two ER Large Lasers and Artemis IV slaved LRM-15 can. So basically it's coming down to the Fafnir's two Heavy Gauss Rifles against everything the Atlas AS7-S2 is armed with. In this case, the advantage is firmly in the Atlas's grip. At closer ranges, well, you all can guess who'd take care of business .......

[Modi]

I am a little late to this conversation but I believe the Atlas has a speed advantage over the Fafnir which would make it the better machine considering it's heavy weapons and armor added to it's speed. Plus at the time the Fafnir is created the Atlas could be using the latest upgrades available which would make it more than a match for a sluggish mech like the fafnir. Don't get me wrong the ugly ****** packs a punch but if we are looking at more modern mechs I would take th Hauptman hands down any day.

[gamesguy]

Modi, on 15 June 2012 - 08:11 PM, said:

I am a little late to this conversation but I believe the Atlas has a speed advantage over the Fafnir which would make it the better machine considering it's heavy weapons and armor added to it's speed. Plus at the time the Fafnir is created the Atlas could be using the latest upgrades available which would make it more than a match for a sluggish mech like the fafnir. Don't get me wrong the ugly ****** packs a punch but if we are looking at more modern mechs I would take th Hauptman hands down any day.

Fafnir is faster.

Anyways if we allow modifications then the fafnir can downgrade to 2x gauss+2x ppc, which would basically let it win at any range.

[trycksh0t]

Modi, on 15 June 2012 - 08:11 PM, said:

I am a little late to this conversation but I believe the Atlas has a speed advantage over the Fafnir which would make it the better machine considering it's heavy weapons and armor added to it's speed. Plus at the time the Fafnir is created the Atlas could be using the latest upgrades available which would make it more than a match for a sluggish mech like the fafnir. Don't get me wrong the ugly ****** packs a punch but if we are looking at more modern mechs I would take th Hauptman hands down any day.

gamesguy, on 15 June 2012 - 08:30 PM, said:

Fafnir is faster.

Anyways if we allow modifications then the fafnir can downgrade to 2x gauss+2x ppc, which would basically let it win at any range.

Neither is faster, they share the same top speed of 54 kph.

And dropping the Fafnir to dual Gauss Rifles and PPCs would definitely bolster it's ability to hit at long range, but those weapons suffer greatly at close range. It would also begin to develop heat issues, creating a maximum of 24 heat and venting 20. This assumes 4 tons of Gauss Rifle ammunition, which would be the minimum viable amount IMO.

[Teralitha]

Not sure if this was mentioned before... but it looks like a few people dont understand how a gauss rifle works. Some ppl have said that that is loses velocity after a short distance, which is not so. The real theory behind a guass cannon, in theory would propel its projectile at incredible speeds over huge distances before lowering its trajectory due to gravity. And would generate no heat because its propulsion force was purely electromagnetic. Also, gauss ammunition is non explosive, so critting it would not cause an ammo explosion. But also, in therory, in order to house the electromagnetic gun barrel, the weapon mount would be rather large. Which would explain why the fatnir boobs looks like they could have come from star blazers.....

Edited by Teralitha, 15 June 2012 - 09:42 PM.

[trycksh0t]

Teralitha, on 15 June 2012 - 09:37 PM, said:

Not sure if this was mentioned before... but it looks like a few people dont understand how a gauss rifle works. Some ppl have said that that is loses velocity after a short distance, which is not so. The real theory behind a guass cannon, in theory would propel its projectile at incredible speeds over huge distances before lowering its trajectory due to gravity. And would generate no heat because its propulsion force was purely electromagnetic. Also, gauss ammunition is non explosive, so critting it would not cause an explosion either.

That is not how the Heavy Gauss Rifle functions in BattleTech, which is what the discussion is about. The HGR loses 20% of it's damage between short and medium range, and then 50% more at long range. While the actual numbers would not equate to a real-world scenario, due to the extremely short ranges that BattleTech uses, velocity and damage reduction over range is to be expected. No projectile, unless fired in vacuum or at point blank range, hits with the same force it is fired with because it has to exert some of it's kinetic energy constantly to overcome air resistance, and Gauss Rifles are no exception.

Also, claiming a purely electromagnetic system generates no heat is incorrect. The most efficient coil gun I am aware of is around 22%, meaning 22% of the energy released from the capacitor is transferred to the projectile. The remaining energy is converted to other forms, such as heat or light. Gauss Rifles in BattleTech were given such low heat ratings for balance purposes, and to reflect the higher efficiency of 31st century technology. To my knowledge, it is not possible to create any system that is 100% efficient, some energy is always lost.

[reported]

Alexios, on 14 June 2012 - 07:30 AM, said:

Hi

In all the years playing mw4 especially against very strong ai opponents, the compination of the ppcs, long range rockets and the gauss rifle from the Atlas can damage the fafnir so badly that when he reaches to 600 meters he wont have many shots with his heavy gauss rifles
on wide range maps the Atlas has the upper hand as long as the fafnir is limited to his range

You tell me this is limited other than the lasers, which are meant to be used at mid range and can still go beyond 500m with good aiming, and we fight. Right now.
The DPS and overall performance of a Fafnir depends on how you tune it, and I don't remember being able to do this with any other Mech, specially not Omnis.

And for the record, I get more microability from this thing than any of your default or stripped + butchered ****. Bring your archaic FATLAS and Longbows with you, I'll show you how it's done.

Edited by reported, 16 June 2012 - 04:21 AM.

[Alexander Caine]

This argument is still retarded until it is specified to be about 1 particular system. Different people comparing different mechs across different formats with different criteria (stock or not) makes this just ludicrous.

TT: Atlas is better if you compare contemporary variants, not the old 7D or 7Ks
MW4: Fafnir is better
MWO: Atlas is better, because it exists.

That makes Atlas win 2 out of 3 as far as I can tell.