490 replies to this topic

[XphR]

I had actually wanted a shift in the gauss to fire on release, having it spin down if not used is also nice for calling off a lost shot. I would also like an addition to the current sound as the ready to fire state reaches 100%, it would be helpful in battle. A short sharp chime or other quick easily discernible sound amidst the chaos.

*4x zoom,
Thank You!

Edited by XphR, 03 September 2013 - 08:52 PM.

[Suprentus]

Every change like this just makes me more and more eager for Star Citizen to come out so I can play that instead. I don't know why PGI insists on over-complicating every thing they possibly can. The community is not much better either, as anything that can ever give the slightest advantage apparently needs to be nerfed, and popular is often equated with overpowered. Yeah, ghost heat? That idea was propagated by the community. 'Nuff said on that subject.

I mean, just look at the track record of changes that just make the game more complicated than they need to be:

• The Double Heat Sink properties are way more complicated than they need to be, and just puts more emphasis on your engine in regards to cooling than the heat sinks you manually install. How that makes for more diversified builds, I'll never know.
  
• The implementation of Angel ECM (oops, Guardian) was a big one, and that took how many months to finally balance? Even in its balanced state, it should have never operated the way it did in the first place.
  
• Machine gun crits. That idea was dead on arrival, but PGI was absolutely certain for months that the idea was sound. They even got the idea of crits wrong, as they didn't even damage the 'Mech's actual health.
  
• R&R was something they just totally gave up on, as they had no idea how to do it right. Anyone can see that giving up on R&R was just catering to the casual crowd, when if done right, it could have appealed to everyone.
  
• Ghost heat...my god -- ghost heat! Just...wtf! You know what, I can see where it was coming from regarding PPCs. But did it really need to apply to half the things it did? Were Large Lasers really such a scourge of game balance? Even with PPCs, you have the Awesome which is designed specifically to use 3 PPCs. That could have easily been fixed with a simple chassis quirk presented in clear english "Quirk: Allows the use of 3 PPCs without extra heat." But no, that would have made too much sense and have been simple to understand.
  
• Various mechanics that are best compensated with macros. UAC jamming should not require a macro to keep the trigger held in without jamming. A double fire should just require a double tap of the trigger. Simple, easy to understand. The desyncing of PPCs and Gauss. Even requiring both of them to be charged would have been fine. Or you know what, what about making PPCs always charge, and Gauss only charge when its in the same weapon group as PPCs? People laud the mechanic saying it needs "more skill" to sync the shots, but all it really does is alienate those who might not find it a particularly fun mechanic.
  
• Third person view. This is a hot button issue, but you know, I'm not even against third person view. The problem is the camera flies too high, and you can look over cover. I think an easy and simple fix to that would have been to make the camera drone destructible and just make the peeking 'Mech targetable so you can rain missiles down on that peeking enemy scout, just as if it were sticking its head up.
  
• The maps. I'll have to explain what I mean. The maps as they are are meticulously designed to be as balanced and polished as possible. However, these maps require constant bug fixing just because the entire movement system is not as robust as it needs to be. 'Mechs are supposed to be able to handle difficult terrain. From a programming standpoint, the terrain shouldn't be constantly bugfixed to allow to 'Mechs to traverse it. Past Mechwarrior games had dozens of maps, and they could have simple rough terrain with a movement system rugged enough to handle it all. What are you going to do when Community Warfare comes, and we only have 10 or so maps to represent the entire Inner Sphere?

I'm sure there are more, but I just can't think of any at the moment. But do you know what the worst thing about all this is? This game is essentially the same as it was back in closed beta, only with more 'Mechs and some tweaks. There are no missions in the game, no universe (I doubt CW will even qualify as a universe, and it will just be a glorified global tournament lobby), no economy, no collisions, no explanations of the overly complicated mechanics, no immersive fluff, no assymetric game modes, and no context behind the grind-tastic gameplay.

I used to defend this game during its development from naysayers, but PGI has made it clear that they don't have their true fans in mind.

[Volcan]

First i would like to say ty for attempting this interpretation of Battle tech tabletop. Played for years and a lot of fun. Butt I am seeing a very bad trend. Starting with the changes made to the engines and the Max that could be applied to a mech based on the stock engine. Not Good for assaults that want to move faster i personally always like a 100 ton monster with a 400 xl well worth it. Nope that’s out now. Ok fixed hard points for weapons flexability limiting but overall a good mechanic these are not omnies after all. ok can deal with that until you start messing with the mechanic of them. The GR is a heavy and assault mech weapon of choice good damage range and while it is heavy that’s what Assaults and heavy’s live on combined with the hard point restriction makes very good sense that we would goto that weapon. Why it is feared and was in the table top for so long as a go to weapon. Once again the heavy and assaults get a shaft. How? the GA is now the only weapon in MW that does not fire when triggered The "Spin" up on this is a very bad idea. The person who thought of this really needs to think combat situation. Wanting to force peeps to use other weapons ? Why? This is not a game of weapons it is a game of who can maneuver and use those weapons the best you have killed the high end maneuvering for assaults and now one of the go to weapons. VERY! Disappointing. I mean this as constructively as possible but it is very hard when the very core mechanics are being distorted.

[SteelPaladin]

So maybe this would be better for an Ask the Devs, but I don't know if I could even get the votes to get it in there so I'm just going to throw it out there.

Why does PGI prefer a design that favors front-loaded damage (i.e. high threshold, low dissipation) over a more metered distribution (i.e. low threshold, high dissipation)? I just want to understand the reasoning. I don't think that's too much to to ask. In recent communication, PGI has said that they agree that high-damage alphas are bad. They want to see weapons being fired over time rather than all at once. That just doesn't seem to jive w/the actual design of the heat system.

Front-loaded means that dumping as much firepower as you can on to a target of opportunity and then ducking away until you cool is the optimal combat style. It maximizes concentration of firepower, minimizes exposure to return fire, and cuts down on "wasted" cooling (i.e. being in cover and not firing, but not having excess heat to dissipate at the time). It's very old-school muzzle-loader, barrage fire followed by an extended reload period.

In contrast, low threshold would limit the ability to unleash a barrage in rapid succession (or all at once) by limiting the ability to "store" heat for later dissipation. Higher dissipation would, in turn, encourage more sustained fire tactics, as extended periods w/o firing would reduce damage output and waste cooling capacity. It does not in any way decrease the importance of managing heat as a game mechanic. Rather the opposite, since a lowered threshold makes it much easier to shut down if a pilot isn't controlling their fire rate appropriately.

I understand that I'm not a professional at this. I've followed game design as a hobby for a long time (and have an embarrassingly large library of game systems I've studied), but I'm still very much an amateur. However, the existing design does not seem to work w/the stated desired end-state, so I would really appreciate an explanation of what I'm missing here.

EDIT: Typos

Edited by SteelPaladin, 03 September 2013 - 09:24 PM.

[Thorqemada]

My intuitive feeling says (ER)PPCs are charged weapons too.
Chainfire and Countersniping does not work good coupled with the charge mechanic.
Maybe its better to give Gauss, (ER)PPC Minimum Range Penaltys and the charge mechanic is heat based:
The charging and keeping the Charge is highly energy intensive and generates high heat values, so as soon you enter combat and switch the charger on you generate heat but have no time limit to release the shot but your max heat limit - it allows countersniping and chainfire.

As this is the reboot of the MW series have balls and fix obvious missteps like Gauss, ERPPC and CL-LRM having no min range for example - give them also a role defining min range penalty.
Use the opportunity to clean up the rules of inconsistent, overly non-intuitive stuff and bring anything into a consistent gameplay context and use the lore as a guideine but not as a dog lead.

Be of good mood!

Edited by Thorqemada, 03 September 2013 - 09:30 PM.

[Kin3ticX]

I dont like the new Guass Rifle. Switching them out to something that will fire when the trigger is pulled.

[CritJoe]

What if they just make the 'sweet spot' longer? You know that time between the charge up, and when it resets? Maybe a 3-4 second sweet spot? It'd separate the 2xERPPC/Gauss alpha as intended, but it wouldn't require so much timing and would allow for more time to correct for target movement.

[Cerlin]

Im decently satisfied with the guass. Alone they work well for me. I have not attempted to use them in concert with PPCS yet.

The ppc nerf may be a bit too heavy for a weapon system that was basically unused for a long period of this game. We will see how hardly this hits them.

[Dustmuffins]

The new Gauss mechanics are actually really fun to use. It's satisfying to let one fly like that.

[Karpundir]

NinetyProof, on 03 September 2013 - 03:15 PM, said:

No ... don't mess with UAC5's ... they are "fun" right now :-)

I also agree... they finally became a viable weapon option now and I fear that an unnecessary change is pending that will render it undesirable again.

The use of UACs require a steady hand and smart positioning and movement in the current meta. It is not like it used to be when you could stand toe-to-toe in a triple UAC 5 Ilya and take down an Atlas 1 on 1. Prior to the jam change, it just wasn't a wise option in lieu of other ballistic types.

Devs, DO NOT CHANGE UAC 5s!

As for the change to the Gauss Rifle. I am fine with it. It will require some adaptation and sadly, I don't think the PPC/Gauss builds are going to go away because of this. After playing several hours today, it isn't too hard to get a near sync as a jump sniper by doing the following:

1. Start your jump
2. Hold down Gauss Rifle button as you near Apex of the jump (about the amount of charge time required)
3. At apex of jump/fadeaway, fire PPCs first, then immediately release Gauss Rifle button. The speed of the Gauss Rifle will "catch up" to the advance firing of the PPCs.

Yes, you incur more heat, so it just means you won't be sniping as much, but your shots will likely be more carefully aimed as a result.

Hate the Gauss? Use AC10 or AC20 instead. Today brought out dual AC10 + 4 Med Laser CTF-3Ds and they worked well enough for me today.

Edited by Karpundir, 03 September 2013 - 10:14 PM.

[Guido]

Mechsniper, on 03 September 2013 - 05:34 PM, said:

Sorry {Noble MechWarrior}, but the randomness of tabletop was to simulate skill and movement of both mechs over varying terrain. The varying terrain and movement of the mechs and skill of the operator are already here so your proposed double nerf would further screw things up.

Firing beyond effective range results in increasing penalties. And ALL Battletech novels describe the limitations of computers affecting range, because of degraded technological capabilities. Plus the hard limits on long range being as it is in tabletop can only be explained by the computer's failure of accuracy, because an AC5 placed by realistic means is capable of firing up to 18km using it's heaviest shell (203mm, same as "Stalin's Sledgehammer" used in WWII to smash through the heaviest of german fortifications), yet is limited to 540 meters (30 meters per grid * 18 grids being max range of AC5) on the tabletop. Nothing short of poor computer aim could account for that kind of degradation in range.

Mechsniper, on 03 September 2013 - 05:34 PM, said:

And the lore is NOT going to hash with a firing delay that is already in cooldown and a charge that magically disappears from a capacitor in .5 seconds(my measured time of hot weapon in actual use). It also goes against common sense. FURTHER show me a prior MechWarrior title where things were as you proposed. You can't. I played them back when they were released including the NES and NES games. NEVER did gauss work this way, or was the ERPPC a shutdown from firing so few. Only PGI is responsible for ignoring hard point limitations and trying to "fix" the problems this creates.

Show me a previous mechwarrior title that had the variety of weapons and mechs regularly fielded in matches as this one has despite the customization of the mechs and due to balance of weapons instead of some other mechanic like field economy (MWLL), and I'll discuss with you about large capacitor safe discharge times and the theoretical energy required to fire off an electromagnetic propulsion cannon that slings a 250lb nickel-iron slug.

[VXJaeger]

Don't you ******* mess with UAC's anymore

[Kmieciu]

Paul Inouye said:

I've also asked Dave to take a look at lights the same way mediums were addressed. Stay tuned for more information on that.

[Vanguard319]

Gauss Rifles seem right now in terms of both use and health. I tried out the tutorial mode, and it's definitely a start in terms of basic maneuvering. The Adv. Zoom is actually useful now, though it still has a few little bugs (targeting info has a tendency to become locked within the zoom window.) As for the Protector, I definitely want one.

[Punk Oblivion]

UAC5 tweaks eh? Well as a fan of ballistics I have two comments:

1) The UAC5 is maybe a bit OP (Only a BIT!) at the moment. So make changes carefully as to not nerf it back to an underpowered weapon...

2) I want an LB10-X tweak to make it unique! The cone narrowing was a great temporary fix, but the more narrow the cone gets, the more it just feels like the AC10#2

[k0sh]

Well i liked the update and refitted all my mechs. No more gauss or ppc on them. Any more weapons that going to be useless so I can sell them and get some c-bills?

[VXJaeger]

If gauss was nerfed, answer is to use 2 of them, and off we go

[DLFReporter]

Good Job on the Gauss, I'm loving the Buff and the new mechanics!

[MustrumRidcully]

I tend to think that too much randomization is bad.

So what I'd do with the UAC:
1) Double Shot is activated by double tapping within a cetain timeframe. If you keep the fire button pressed, it doesn't count as double tap.
2) A Jam occurs after n double taps and lasts t seconds. It doesn't matter if you mix between double and single fire, the total number of double taps counts and is reset after the jam has cleared. n could be a value like 4 , and t could be a value like 6 * single shot weapon cooldown.

This means basically that double shot and single shot are tactical choices.
In a prolonged engagement, you can't afford the long jam delay, since you effectively lose damage potenital. (You deal double dam age for the first n shots, but then lose the damage advantage during the jam)
But if you only have a brief window of opportunity, double shot is very effective.

[xXBagheeraXx]

Mechsniper, on 03 September 2013 - 04:03 PM, said:

Wow, a lot of PGI {Noble MechWarriors} with 0 loyalty to the games history/cannon. Also a lot with no skill vs snipers, so they are happy to qq and then rejoice when a necessary mode of battlefield warfare is destroyed. Sniper mechs including the 9M and 8Q are now pretty much DOA on the battlefield. The guass is at the moment unusable against lights in close and worthless for targets moving in and out of cover. OH, wait guys, I need to charge my gauss rifle(s). GENIUS! Wait, what? A capacitor that doesn't hold its charge? Doubly genius! I think I'll take a break. I'm out for now. No more $ till' things look better. If ever they do. Right now I feel PGI has thrown us old school fans of MechWarrior under the bus.

Yeah this one pretty much made me want my money back for the Phoenix project mechs....they get no more cash from me...

Edited by xXBagheeraXx, 03 September 2013 - 11:04 PM.