143 replies to this topic

[Escef]

Lightfoot, on 11 March 2015 - 09:23 AM, said:

Right now it does prevent most MWO players from using it as intended by Battle Tech which is, except for a few mech variants, in a single mount configuration.

Gunslinger, Cerberus, Nightstar, Galahad, Thunderhawk (has 3), Avatar G, Cyclops (CP-11-B ), Devastator, Jagermech (JM6-DG), Fafnir (FNR-5B), King Crab (KGC-001), Pillager

That is, to the best of my knowledge, all of the Inner Sphere mechs that mount 2+ Gauss rifles. 12 is more than a few, especially considering that some of those mechs have more than 1 variant with twin Gauss. Yes, they are outnumbered by the mechs that only mount a single Gauss, but to claim that it was "intended" to be used singly and that double Gauss mechs are supposed to be some sort of rare exception isn't a very realistic analysis.

Edited by Escef, 11 March 2015 - 04:10 PM.

[Lightfoot]

12 out of thousands is rare. If it were up to me the de-sync/charge-up would never have been added, the Gauss Rifle should have been balanced with recycle times and velocity, however PGI added it. It is from a non-mech game so I always assumed it was a quick-fix. It doesn't fit a Battlemech which automatically reloads shells and recharges lasers and everything else just fine and the Gauss Rifle actually has an easier reload mechanism than an Autocannon or Laser, it just charges a capacitor bank and drops the next slug into the barrel. The Gauss Rifle does not do Sniper Rifle level damage which is why 2xGauss are all you see. But 18% of players think they need this now. 82% say it needs modification.

I'll say one thing the one second hold charge ability is just to remove the Gauss from the game. Like a band-aid or crutch so it just seems unfinished.

Edited by Lightfoot, 14 March 2015 - 02:56 PM.

[Escef]

Lightfoot, on 11 March 2015 - 08:22 PM, said:

12 out of thousands is rare.

There are not thousands of variants of mechs with Gauss rifles. And even if you include all variants of all mechs, the Master Unit List catalogs 3096 mechs, which includes primitive and introductory level mechs, which don't mount Gauss at all. And some of those 12 are INCREDIBLY popular mechs, and those 12 only include Inner Sphere mechs (there's at least a good 11 more clan side). I'm not sure how you can sit there and preach about what was "intended" in Battletech when there has never been any rule limiting the number of Gauss a mech can carry (beyond the limitations imposed by the tonnage and critical space systems). When even the quintuple-Gauss Annihilator is an official mech at this point, I don't think you have ANY grounds to make such a claim.

[Johnny Z]

Most players using gauss at the moment completely ignore the charge any via macro/script. Get rid of the charge.

[Idealsuspect]

Johnny Z, on 12 March 2015 - 04:10 AM, said:

Most players using gauss at the moment completely ignore the charge any via macro/script. Get rid of the charge.

I dont use macro and i don't want PGI remove charge ...
Gauss isn't really hard to use.

[Lightfoot]

Escef, on 11 March 2015 - 10:05 PM, said:

There are not thousands of variants of mechs with Gauss rifles. And even if you include all variants of all mechs, the Master Unit List catalogs 3096 mechs, which includes primitive and introductory level mechs, which don't mount Gauss at all. And some of those 12 are INCREDIBLY popular mechs, and those 12 only include Inner Sphere mechs (there's at least a good 11 more clan side). I'm not sure how you can sit there and preach about what was "intended" in Battletech when there has never been any rule limiting the number of Gauss a mech can carry (beyond the limitations imposed by the tonnage and critical space systems). When even the quintuple-Gauss Annihilator is an official mech at this point, I don't think you have ANY grounds to make such a claim.

Someone said dual Gauss Mechs are not rare in Battle Tech and 12 or even 30 out of thousands is rare by any standard. A single Gauss Rifle is fairly common and usually Heavy and Assault mechs with ballistic capability have a stock variant that has a single Gauss Rifle. This is the path that MWO is also following. No Phoenix mech, no Resistance pack mech, can mount two Gauss Rifles and most MWO Assaults and Heavy mechs can't either. So the simple observation that 2x Gauss Rifles is a rare config in Battle Tech is valid.

Once you open a Mechlab you move into MechWarrior/MechCommander and each game has it's own rules for it's Mechlab.

Now I don't care if PGI wants to add an apocryphal sniper rifle to MWO, but the Gauss Rifle is not it. Damage on that scale would be like MechCommander's Railgun which is a valid sniper rifle in damage, range, weight, size. That player's in MWO paste 2xGauss into a sniper rifle should not affect players wishing to use a single Gauss Rifle and the de-sync is made so hard to use for the reason it becomes OP when used as 2xGauss slugs merged into one by pin point synchronization.

If PGI wants to keep that option, fine, but do not hold the game hostage to this apocryphal sniper rifle 2x conversion of the Gauss Rifle because it makes the single Gauss Rifle worthless. That removes a lot of mechs from possible sale too, or use, by players because when you give a mech a working config option they will buy it for that option. Take it away and there is no reason to buy the mech, or one less reason.

It is interesting that the Poll reflects current in-game usage of the Gauss Rifle. You see a 2xGauss mech (or 1xGauss mech) about once in two games, maybe more often now that everyone uses the 2xGauss King Crab, but that is in line with that figure that only 18% of players use the current Gauss Rifle, or can make it work for them. So unless the purpose of the current Gauss Rifle de-sync/charge-up is to block 82% of players from using a Gauss Rifle effectively, in essence remove it from game play, it failed and should be revised or replaced. Surely there is a better solution and that is all anybody wants.


.

Edited by Lightfoot, 12 March 2015 - 08:45 AM.

[Escef]

Lightfoot, on 12 March 2015 - 08:32 AM, said:

Someone said dual Gauss Mechs are not rare in Battle Tech and 12 or even 30 out of thousands is rare by any standard.

Look, you're the one talking about how the designers of table top didn't "intend" for there to be twin Gauss mechs, yet they exist in table top. And many of them are very popular. And it is far from a new concept, twin Gauss first appeared on a mech in the original publication of TRO 3050 with the Vulture C. So, first and foremost, you need to dump your precious idea of speaking with some kind of authority on that matter unless you can back it up with some FASA/FanPRO/Wizkids/CGL credentials.

Secondly, once again, those twin Gauss monsters are some of the most popular mechs in the game. I don't know what rock you are hiding under where you don't see players that when using Inner Sphere don't want to field Nightstars or Devastators. Furthermore, those "12" mechs are only the Inner Sphere mechs with 2 or 3 Gauss, which does not count Clan mechs (at least 11 more right there), nor does it count each individual variant of those chassis. It is also intellectually dishonest to compare that number to the entirety of the contents of the MUL as that includes Primitive and Introductory level mechs that do not even have the option of mounting Gauss rifles, and also includes mechs of such tonnage that mounting twin Gauss is physically impossible due to lack of tonnage. The MUL also includes mechs that are obsolete, extinct, or badly outdated (no one fields Succession War era mechs in 3055+ if they can help it).

And overall, it is that attitude of yours that I'm pushing against. Your delusion that you speak from some sort of seat of authority is laughable. Especially given that you gleefully ignore facts, ignore what is canon in Battletech, in order to further your head-canon.

In short, you're nuts.

Oh, speaking of nuts...

Lightfoot, on 12 March 2015 - 08:32 AM, said:

No Phoenix mech, no Resistance pack mech, can mount two Gauss Rifles...

Are you sure?

Edited by Escef, 12 March 2015 - 04:24 PM.

[Lightfoot]

Your Enforcer Are you sure? has essentially no armor so you would be nuts to field that. 2xGauss can't work miracles, but they do explode for 20 points of damage once the armor is stripped.

Never said twin Gauss stock Mechs did not exist, some were built for that purpose like the Blood Asp. I said they are rare.

For MWO, I don't think you can say that one or two 2xGauss mechs every other game is popular and I rarely see a mech with a single Gauss. That roughly corresponds to a game population of 18% of players are able to use the Gauss de-sync with some success and 82% are not. I am sure there is room for error either way, but that is what the poll says also. It really shouldn't just be ignored. The single Gauss Rifle fills a vital niche for the loadout of most mechs and should not be denied to those players in favor of keeping a broken charge-up nerf.

I said mechs that can carry 2x Gauss are very popular like the Jagermech, Dire-Wolf, King Crab, Cataphract. Ballistic focused mechs that can't carry 2x Gauss are much less popular. Orion, Summoner, Battlemaster, Highlander??? (are you kidding me, the HGN is what MechWarrior lore is all about!) and probably the Zeus, but we'll see. Many of those missed sales are due to the problem of using a single Gauss that only does 15 damage, but is so ridiculously hard to make work. Why make mechs that few will buy, -or- why not fix the Gauss and start selling more of those mechs?

[Escef]

Lightfoot, on 14 March 2015 - 02:56 PM, said:

Your Enforcer Are you sure? has essentially no armor so you would be nuts to field that.

Gee, i wonder if maybe, just maybe, that's why I prefaced it with the phrase, "Oh, speaking of nuts..."? Yes, it absolutely is an insane build. But I wager one can get results out of it. And do you know why I make that wager? Because THIS is one of my better performing Shadowhawk builds. It was meant to be a joke build, called the "Shadowlander" because it was an attempt to cram the guns from the Champion Highlander onto a Shadowhawk.

So, I know from first hand experience that crazy builds, if you play them correctly, can work. Want to see another crazy build work? Go onto YouTube and search for Damon Howe's BoomCada videos (yes, 2xAC20 Cicada).

[AkoolPopTart]

You have to charge it? Lame...A 15 second reload would have been better.

[Night Thastus]

Seems fine to me the way it is. The old way would make everyone go guass constantly, and I can only imagine the pain of being swarmed by 12 guass in a match. No thanks.

The current method works fine.

[Lightfoot]

Night Thastus, on 15 March 2015 - 04:49 PM, said:

Seems fine to me the way it is. The old way would make everyone go guass constantly, and I can only imagine the pain of being swarmed by 12 guass in a match. No thanks.

The current method works fine.

I point out that all previous MechWarrior games balanced the Gauss with a 30% longer recharge than an AC20/LB-20X. MW4's Gauss was actually better than MWO's, but players used the LB-20X more/preferred unless they knew the map would block it's effectiveness.

MWO's problem is 'time to kill' and a single Gauss would actually slow down TTK because it has the lowest DPS per ton. It's value is it's ranged accuracy and that is all. MWO's mechs are weak to damage so players can use 2xGauss to turn it into a Sniper Rifle, but ruining the rest of the mech's load-outs so just a handful can use the 2xGauss to make a sniper rifle is dishonorable. As far as Canon is concerned.

So if the problem is really 2xGuass, and it was, then the de-sync should only affect that configuration. That would actually work to discourage players from using 2xGauss instead of forcing them to use 2x.

[Escef]

Lightfoot, on 16 March 2015 - 08:41 AM, said:

MWO's problem is 'time to kill' ...

There are a vocal handful that say this, but TTK is probably about where it should be.

[Lightfoot]

Escef, on 16 March 2015 - 03:27 PM, said:

There are a vocal handful that say this, but TTK is probably about where it should be.

True TTK is a comparative thing. I killed two mechs with medium lasers in 5 seconds two weeks ago and three mechs in 12 seconds with SRMs plus lasers today (it was the turning point in the match, we won 12 to 11). I am just pointing out that the single Gauss can't do this and certainly a single Gauss would just slow TTK down. TTK is why the Gauss was originally nerfed.

And I would not fear a single Gauss with 2xPPCs. These will not all hit a mech if it is moving and if a mech is not moving everything hits it anyway from lasers to SRMs. Just check all the new player PP FLD threads. They might learn something if they knew they had to dodge Gauss plus PPCs to keep them from turning into a pin-point hit.

Edited by Lightfoot, 16 March 2015 - 07:36 PM.

[Lightfoot]

Plus my Zeus just doesn't seem right without a Gauss Rifle. So why not a single Gauss Rifle that works on just a trigger pull?

Edited by Lightfoot, 27 March 2015 - 12:37 PM.

[Skarlock]

Escef, on 04 September 2013 - 12:37 PM, said:

I do not find the current charge system for the Gauss acceptable. I'm not against having to charge the Gauss, but the brief window of time you can use it is too short. If you are looking to decouple the Gauss from PPCs, the best way is heat punishment, IMO.

They already decoupled Gauss from PPCs because the gauss round goes 2k speed, the ppc projectile, even on heavily quirked mechs only goes like 1400ish. Without quirks it goes about half the speed of the gauss.

That being said, it's fifteen damage per shot for zero heat, with as high of an accuracy for a ballistic weapon as you can get in this game. That in and of itself is an incredibly powerful set of attributes, even if it is a low dps weapon, heavy, and explodes on crit. I'd say leave it as is. You can always pre-charge your gauss before peeking. I don't mind a skill based weapon at all in the game, I think it adds flavor and it's rewarding once you start to master these mechanics since the gauss rifle is a really good weapon to know well.

Edited by Skarlock, 27 March 2015 - 09:30 AM.

[Rear Admiral Tier 6]

no charge on some mechs,maybe chassis based.

with highlander(some variants) and dragon (5n and Flame) it might be reasonable

[Uthael]

Automatic Gauss cannon discharging (no fire) has one big drawback, which I guess bothers most of the people here: huge delay after NOT shooting before being able to shoot again.

Imagine the following situation:
You have found your target, started charging your Gauss, activated your Zoom module and your target died before your charge-up is complete. Now you're exposed. You have to re-target. FAST! . Or you won't be able to fire for quite a long time.
And keep the Zoom module in mind while you're at it (turn it off and on or deal with the crappy mouse sensitivity code. Fire your Gauss at the "+" crosshair or aim at the imaginary offset).

To balance around this, here's my suggestion (read the rest, please):
Make it able to hold charge indefinitely and implement Alt-Fire button. For the Gauss that would be discharging it. Later in game development, it could be used to fire different ammo from an AC or to fire missiles only if locked (or forced dumbfire).
If the weapon is charged, make the weapon explosion so strong that it would outright destroy an XL Jagermech. Increase the weapon critted chance even further if needed. Uncharged, it doesn't blow up.

This way, fast reaction-fire on this weapon is prevented (reason for this nerf). Otherwise you run a very high risk of dying as soon as you and your enemy come face to face. You may boat a PPC-Gauss assault that would kill him outright, but his alpha has to be just strong enough to strip your armor off your one component.

[30ft SMURF]

Karma Police, on 22 October 2013 - 07:15 AM, said:

i like the change with the gauss. i use a jagermech with 2 gauss guns. i like needing good skills inorder to use this gun because its very strong and the ammo does not expload giving it an edge over the ac20. plus range is much bigger.

i consider the gauss - BALANCED.

Karma Police, on 22 October 2013 - 07:21 AM, said:

74 people like to play cheese. whats wrong? cant handle a little charge. get some skills people! ^^

Romeox, on 11 January 2014 - 12:48 AM, said:

The Gauss is perfect now. Stop whinning.

The Gunman, on 19 January 2014 - 02:51 AM, said:

Long range, no heat, as exactly as accurate as the person pulling the trigger...

The holding charge penalty is fair.

Hi, I am an elite pro uber gamer with mad skills because I can charge a gauss rifle in MWO and I like thinking highly of myself for doing something I should have been smart enough to program a computer to do for me. Unlike any other weapon in the game it is only fair to essentially add another cooldown timer/trigger window on a long range sniper weapon, for no other reason than a bunch of whining little female dogs were butt-hurt about being shot with multiple types of sniper weapons at the same time and instead of supporting weapon balance they cried untill something they feared or couldn't adapt to was nerfed... We don't get weapon balance because the players who can't aim cry about pin point damage and the players who can cry about lrms (if and when they're ever actually usefull in competiative play)... Many reasonable suggestions have been made to limit or reduce the pairing of gauss/ppcs, which don't require a gauss charge mechanic... Perhaps they could move the charge mechanic to the ppc/erppc, but that would be another drastic change to the game like ghost heat and keeps the course of a bull in the china shop instead of testing minor adjustments and finding balance... sure hope this poll goes somewhere...

[Karl Streiger]

Have played often with the gauss in the last days.
I usually don't have any problems with the charge - see a target press the button - aim - release button- hit.
Only problem happens when i got hit while still trying to aim - that can cause some bad delays

so why not the longer you charge the more heat the Gauss generates - of course the Gauss should only explode when charged - but for more destruction.