265 replies to this topic

[Nutlink]

DoktorVivi, on 17 October 2013 - 02:17 PM, said:

That should not necessarily matter. The game should be balanced against itself, not other games. Use other games / TT as a guideline only, then evolve it from there.

Indeed, now if only they could use that logic on other things, like the size of medium mechs.

[DoktorVivi]

BOTA49, on 17 October 2013 - 02:32 PM, said:

Indeed, now if only they could use that logic on other things, like the size of medium mechs.

Yeah, there's definitely quite a bit of inconsistency in the game. They kind of just shotgun ideas out and see which ones work (if any), but often don't go back to fix the ones that don't. Or they take forever to do so.

[Peter Powers]

I can see there is already a lot of discussion going on here, but since i just had the "joy" of running into the new mechanic (that so far i didn't know of) i feel like adding my two cents.

I've been playing since closed beta, but with a few breaks. I love fiddeling with builds, and i usually enjoy long range game. Last time before this that i tried the gauss i got mostly annoyed with lag-shielded lights that where impossible to hit with it - so it really has been ages since i have used a Gauss.

Now today i decided to slam a Gauss on my Shadowhawk, to see what now that the game is running a lot smother can be done with it.

First game:
canyons, i'm thinking "ok this allows me to snipe, there is plenty of chances on this map". After a few minutes i see the first hostile Mech on the horizon - zoom in, put on this evil sniper smile, press fire... nothing happens. WTF? so check if i maybe forgot adding ammo? nope, 30 rounds just like i wanted. uhm.. ok, lets try this again. I press fire, nothing happens... i die.

Second game:
canyons again, guess at least i'm lucky with the map choice. after finding my first victim i'm pointing at him and keep the fire button pressed (making a guess that there is some delay). i hear two distinctive sounds, and think "oh wow, guess it fired now, but it didn't shake, and i didn't see a projectile, they must have accelerated the projectile speed beyond reason".
So i do that a few times, till a bunch of lights ***** me up from behind. I notice that i'm still having full ammo. Weird.

Third game:
canyons again. I find enemy, i "fire" look at the ammo and see the ammo not going down. guess i'm not firing after all. great. i ask people on my team in chat "dude, you have to bring ammo" - i did that "you have to charge the weapon" - i did that "you have to release the button" what? ok.
I point at some Mech, press fire, hear first sound, hear second sound, release button. Nothing happens. I try again. Nothing happens. Mh.. ok, maybe i have to release between the two sounds. so i try that. And finally its firing, but the projectile being quite slow misses. meanwhile i die.

Fourth game:
i'm confident that i have understood how it works now, so another game. This time its river city night. I hate that map, ever since they changed heat/night vision it is extremly hard to see something at distance. i die quite quick.

Fifth game:
Canyons again, yay. I find a hostile heavy, and start putting slugs in him. The firing still feels extremly awkward with this release. Since i'm not confident with the weapon now i go for dead center - everything else i assume i might miss.
the heavy starts approaching me (distance 900m) i keep firing slug after slug after slug, supporting with my LRM 5 launcher.
he's getting clother, my cockpit is shaking under his fire, it gets impossible to aim, but i manage to put a few more slugs in him, his armor indication however doesn't show much damage. He gets closer. At 300m range the shake of my cockpit is so hard, and he's not moving in a straight line anymore, hitting him becomes extrem luck. sometimes its not even firing because i get over the second sound again (which i'm having trouble hearing between the shots). i die horribly, while after putting about 12 slugs into him (about 8 missed) he only has light armor damage.
Basically i have my opinion about this weapon now. but i go on and play 4 more games, just to see if i maybe was unlucky.

In the end: the Gauss Rifle is a weird weapon, which has a ton of disadvantages (and no real advantage over other weapons)
The AC/2 seems to be a lot better weapon, doing more damage at higher distance within the same amount of time, and no tripple-hard (spool up, and release (within a few seconds)) triggering mechanism. I'm not sure what caused that, but as it is, this weapon converts your mech to a deathtrap (extremly high fit requirements in tonnage and slots) with horrbile chances to hit and low damage output.

No thanks.

[Hythos]

DoktorVivi, on 17 October 2013 - 02:17 PM, said:

That should not necessarily matter. The game should be balanced against itself, not other games. Use other games / TT as a guideline only, then evolve it from there.

Anyway, as has been said, the charge up to the Gauss Rifle could easily be an abstract way of implementing the accuracy penalty of using a Gauss Rifle at close range in TT. It's harder to hit the close in mechs because of the charge up. Since most people are opposed to any sort of cone of fire / random hit mechanic, this is what we get.

A Guess Rifle mechanic was to introduced a "Sn1p3r waepon" to help attract FPS players.
While MWO uses Battletech and previous MechWarrior titles as a "guideline", its the attempts at creating an FPS-style game further from that guideline that's ruining the experience.

People say "paying more money into the game doesn't entitle one to be of greater importance"... though I strongly disagree. So does PGI.




The proof? They answer to their 'share holders', which is highly likely why MWO:Mercs went live so soon.. and likely the reason why someone pitched population increase from FPS players. I could easily see someone *cough*Paul*cough* saying: "OH we can raise our numbers by 100,000 - just give us a little more time".
Boom. Gauss Rifle = Sn1p3r waepon.

[Agentpony]

Peter Powers, on 19 October 2013 - 06:34 AM, said:

...

In the end: the Gauss Rifle is a weird weapon, which has a ton of disadvantages (and no real advantage over other weapons)
The AC/2 seems to be a lot better weapon, doing more damage at higher distance within the same amount of time, and no tripple-hard (spool up, and release (within a few seconds)) triggering mechanism. ...

The funny thing is, I played around with my BLRs and tried a setup with Gauss AND an AC/2. The weapons have comparable reach and the same speed. Before, I did have considerable problems getting adjusted to the "new" Gauss.

If you link the weapons in a group, you can just hold down the trigger to blast away with the AC/2; when you hear the spool-up of the Gauss, all you need to do is a quick lift of the finger to fire away - its a bit like early tanks that used a targetting machine gun with similar ballistics to find a fire solution for the main cannon. Sounds even more complicated, I know. But it actually feels pretty natural. 3/5/4 kills in the first 3 matches I tried.

[Disclaimer: I KNOW that this is certainly not the best MIN/MAX way of wasting your tonnage, but this is about fun]

Hythos, on 19 October 2013 - 07:41 PM, said:

A Guess Rifle mechanic was to introduced a "Sn1p3r waepon" to help attract FPS players.
While MWO uses Battletech and previous MechWarrior titles as a "guideline", its the attempts at creating an FPS-style game further from that guideline that's ruining the experience. ...

Sorry about using a harsh word, but that is nonsense.

The special thing about sniper weapons in FPS´ is not the range, its the ability to deliver one-shot kills from relative safety. MWO doesnt work like that, and even IF a Gauss to the head would insta-kill here (and one Gauss can never do that because of the head internals), the ´mech heads are far far more difficult to hit than in any FPS out there. And besides the weapon range, the ingame zoom does nothing to put the Gauss shooter into a safer place.

No, the spool-up time/increased speed of the Gauss puts it into a very special place that is very different from the sniping you encounter in FPS gameplay.

The reasoning behind the change is very clear; MWO was suffering tremendously from high-alpha boating. PGI introduced heavy heat penalties on ALL preferred boating weapons (and speed reduction for PPC). Since the Gauss is essentially heatless, they found another way to hamper that one. This slowed down the game and brought it further away from "FPS play".

Whether the chosen way is right can be argued. But your "proof" goes against available facts.

Edited by Agentpony, 20 October 2013 - 01:02 AM.

[Sir Ratburger]

One thing I have learned from my time in the forums... PGI do not care, they do not want your oppinions and will never change anything - once they have made a change it is there to stay and that is that no matter how bad of a choice we all think it is.

there was no need to ever add a charge up time for the gauss, maybe for the ppc's but not for the gauss... however it is in the game now and it will never change.

[Almeras]

I'm not a fan of the change it encourages people to boat them and discourages people to use them with other weapons because of the unique way they are fired.

[Ruccus]

Sir Ratburger, on 20 October 2013 - 01:49 AM, said:

One thing I have learned from my time in the forums... PGI do not care, they do not want your oppinions and will never change anything - once they have made a change it is there to stay and that is that no matter how bad of a choice we all think it is.

there was no need to ever add a charge up time for the gauss, maybe for the ppc's but not for the gauss... however it is in the game now and it will never change.

The thing that annoys me is that the problem wasn't the Gauss Rifle and the problem wasn't the PPC and ER PPC, it was combining two (ER)PPCs and a Gauss for a long range 35 point alpha. In 'fixing' the weapons (added heat for the PPCs and charge up for Gauss) they hurt the players who used each weapon individually just as much as they hurt those grouping the three weapons.

I've not only scrapped my Blackjack's Gauss Rifle build but I've also only taken my PPC build out a few times since the change and it now needs a cold map for me not to have overheating issues. My ER PPC variant of the build is out of the question; it overheats even on cold maps.

PGI's attempt to stop the PPC+PPC+Gauss alpha has hurt Medium mechs just as much as or more than it's hurt the Heavy and Assault mechs using the grouping.

[Morderian]

well the PPCs are okay i mean they are heavy hitting weapons which pay their price in heat while only weighting 7 tons, they are an ammoless AC10 so thats okay,
and the PPC/Gauss meta just changed because most people can not handle hot mechs,

i still play mechs with PPCs/Gauss config the are as effective as before, its just that the People did not want to adapt so they seeked the next weapon config that mostly uses 1 Button and does a lot of damage so now we have a lot of AC2/5 Boats and AC20 Jägers (also now the one or other Higlander with dual PPC+AC20)
so high alphas are not gone

because thats how people are they just want an easy way to do lots of damage by clicking one Button, it was alwys that way and it will ever be,

and this did come from the histeria of the PPC heat and speed balancing which is good, the Gauss change did nothing in that department, it just made the Gauss less usefull for mixed builds instead of PPCs/Gauss and Dual Gauss builds

Edited by Morderian, 20 October 2013 - 02:48 AM.

[SuriViruS]

Sephlock, on 17 October 2013 - 01:03 PM, said:

NOOOOO! What did that post say?!

It said

Anyway, there are many opinions about the GR.
From "it's never been better" to "unplayable BS".

A lots has been written, but I can't see a real majority on one side.
For myself, I find it interesting to read through the thread.

Don't hesitate If you got anything to add, as long as it stays with the topic.
(And probably hasnt been written before)

Edited by SuriViruS, 20 October 2013 - 05:12 AM.

[Oni Ralas]

My .02...

I love the Gauss. Always have. We had our rough times, when projectiles were slow and hits were a {Scrap} shoot...but we stayed together.

When they changed the charge mechanics, I was apprehensive at first. After using it for a while, I can say that I still enjoy the Gauss - it brings a new dynamic to the fight.

With that being said - it is still a bit unwieldy in the big firefights. I have no issue with a charge-shoot mechanic --- what I do have an issue with is the ability to snapfire. Snapfire was the root of our issue originally, bringing pain at a moments notice with little downside. The problem now is that the charge plus short window can be unwieldy (when you combine the charge time, window and potential miss/discharge + CD, it's a huge gamble when on the move).

Can it be changed? Well:

1) The charge time should be treated as a "Primer". Gun must spool up for X seconds to enter a ready state. So If(!Discharged){Begincharge()}. The button does not need to be held down to trigger this event - single click begins charge. CD status is still false.

2) Once in the ready state, we will hold the charge for X timeframe. Right now it's a very low 1.5sec. I get this, in the current mechanic, as it' assumed you will charge+fire within a short window. If we change this to say, 4 seconds before cap discharge, we have a 4 second window to move and snapfire at will.

3) In a fully charged/ready state, the weapon will launch projectile when fired (as normal). A click of the button will release the round.

4) Upon successful fire status, begin the cooldown cycle. If we miss the window, begin a .75sec capacitor "dump" cycle, returning us to a power neutral state.


This has some advantages without breaking the original intention of slowing gauss usage:

1) I still have the conscious of timing. There is a spool up time, a window of fire time, and a potential spool-down (not weapon CD) time if I miss the window. So, it's a thinking-pilots weapon

2) Due to the click-to-charge mechanic (vs. hold-to-spool/release to fire mechanic) I can commit my cycles to dealing with other events with my mouse. The larger window of fire time allows me to move and/or be ready for more "Oh {Scrap}!" moments.

I think this would make the weapon far more usable in a wider range of situations, while also artificially throttling the gauss-storm we used to have.

[Hythos]

Agentpony, on 20 October 2013 - 12:58 AM, said:

Whether the chosen way is right can be argued. But your "proof" goes against available facts.

Only... They've outright said they're aggressively going after new ways to attract FPS players, on the brlief that it will bring in new revenue.

Even if a change to de-sync the Gauss from PPC's WAS their actual intention, people are now running 2xPPC's + 1xAC/20, 2xPPC + 2xAC/10 or 1xAC/20 + 4xML (or more), which invalidates the Gauss Rifle-change as a part of any 'high alpha prevention' argument.

PGI took ONE reference of Gauss Rifles being used PURELY for sniping-purposes, and (incorrectly) ran with it because it filled a void that separated MWO in familiarity for FPS players: Ref, Hollander description, Battletech TRO: 3055

[Chronicblazed]

I would like to volume of the sound FX for the gauss charging increased. Its hard to hear with stuff expolding all around you. Also ambient cockpit lighting to indicate its status. example green (ready to charge) yellow (charging) flashing red ( charge about to expire) solid red (cool down).

[Kazma]

Chronicblazed, on 17 November 2013 - 11:13 AM, said:

I would like to volume of the sound FX for the gauss charging increased. Its hard to hear with stuff expolding all around you. Also ambient cockpit lighting to indicate its status. example green (ready to charge) yellow (charging) flashing red ( charge about to expire) solid red (cool down).

+1
I've suggested this before

[Bartholomew bartholomew]

I think it should not blow up when not charged. The glass cannon part was the capcitors going up.

Otherwise I use it in a few builds and the mechanic takes getting used to. BUT I now save more ammo and use it more effectively. SInce if I lose my target I can hold and discharge.

I also agree the sound needs to be louder. You cannot hear it in a furball.

[dal10]

least it doesn't have a minimum range.

[Wolfways]

Joseph Mallan, on 30 September 2013 - 07:59 AM, said:

Well hitting a Mech in close on TT with a Gauss has a penalty. Trying to shoot a Mech in close while waiting 1.5 seconds is... frustrating at best. And the closer the harder it is to "snap off' a shot at that Jenner nipping your ankles. It is a fair mechanic in this way to me.

I can track a close range target for 1.5 seconds, but now i can't take quick shots at distant targets moving between cover. The gauss is now a brawler weapon for me...which makes it useless next to the AC20.

[xMEPHISTOx]

dal10, on 17 November 2013 - 04:23 PM, said:

least it doesn't have a minimum range.

Sssshhhhhhh...Don't give them any ideas.

[Wakdjunkaga]

Newish GR mechanic idea- not too far off from what they have now.

Reduce weapon CD to 3 second. (post fire to refire duration)

You 'can' release earlier, but with lesser effect.

0-.24s charge time = 2.5 damage, 300m optimal range
.25-.49s charge time = 5 damage, 420m optimal range
.50-.74s charge time = 10 damage, 540m optimal range
.75s + charge time = 15 damage, 660m optimal range

Remove 'charge loss', so now you can hold it as long as you want, all you are doing is lowering your own dps... but possibly getting the shot you wanted instead.

Quicker shots aren't the most efficient use of that heavy ammo (damage/ton), but sometimes you might need to fire just a smidgeon earlier.

[SuriViruS]

An interesting idea. Would require new calculations for dmg @ estimated target-distance per charge time window.

But I fear it might be too far away of canon, where I assume the GR isn't able to fire at 50% charge ?!