33 replies to this topic

[CyclonerM]

This is my opinion on how Clan tech and 'mechs could be implemented. Prepare yourself for a wall of text

Clans will be definitely released after CW phase 3 (planets capture) as joinable factions. Very well,we Clanners are waiting for nothing else.


-1st problem AKA "i don't mind about their stupid honor rules,i just want my Dire Wolf!"

Clan tech would cause an exodus from the IS factions to the Clans. Both new and veteran player will be attracted by their better weapons and the Clan factions will be full of stravags do not care about our honorable traditions and our heritage.

-My solution: as many proposed, i would like to put a limit to the players who can join a Clan but it would be difficult and unfair. There is no way to limit the joining to the true Clanners,what would you do,a quiz about the Clans? A kind of Trial? Well, with orivate lobbies (available only with "premium account" as stated in the latest interview from NGNG ) every Clan unit could run their own trials for new members.

So i think the best solution could be this: i do not think PGI will release second-line Clan mechs,especially the refits of IS 'mechs; players who join the Clan faction will have 2 kind of points: Loyalty points and Honor points. New Clan players will have to earn a reasonably high amount of loyalty points to "unlock" Omni-mechs and maybe the assignment to "front-line units". This will depend on how the player will be part of his faction.

Honor points will be just like C-bills (Clan warriors do not have money on their own, their equipment is assigned by his/her Clan,only the merchant caste uses money,the Kerenskys,AFAIK) and will be used to "buy", or better "get assigned" an Omni-mech,its price depending on its tonnage just as IS 'Mechs.

Both loyalty points and Honor points will be assigned after each battle.

-2nd problem AKA "Clan mechs are OP!!! "
Do not negate it.
Clan 'Mechs are more powerful,have more range and run cooler.
It has been stated in the last interview that Clan tech stats will be tweaked to reduce their advantage, and i am fine with it,in a game like this it is impossible to have Zellbrigen rules which can give IS forces an advantage against them.  This could work for weapons,heatsinks and engine size.

-My solution:

But canonically Omnimechs have not only advantages: their internal structure is "hard-wired" and armor, engine and ammo location cannot be changed. This will limit their customization and could naturally keep away from them some players.
Even their best advantage, the Omni-slots who can be fitted with almost every weapon, is nullified: in MWO Inner Sphere Battlemechs are almost as customizable in their weaponry as Omnimechs. Their hardpoints are not sized (very bad choice IMO) and you can put even Gauss rifles on a Catapult K2. In terms of customization, Clan 'Mechs would be at severe disadvantage compared to IS 'mechs.

I think that IS battlemechs should have at least sized hardpoints: right now they are a "collection of hardpoints". Every 'mech is almost the same to another. Omni-mechs,with their fixed internal configurations,would be unique and each player could choose the one which fits better his playstile and his tastes. Not bad,quiaff?

-3rd problem AKA "I want to be Davion but i want my Mad Cat!!1!1!1! "

I said there are lot of players who wants Clan tech but do not want to join a Clan faction (probably because hates the Clans).

My solution:

I thought Loyalty points in an Inner Sphere faction could unlock (a LOT of LPs)  the assignment of Clan 'mechs or at least Clan tech, reflecting the salvage of the rare victories over the Clans. It will require a high amount of LPs because only the most experienced and élite units received salvaged Clan tech.

Merc Corps could get Clan tech salvages in other ways,for example achieving challenges and objectives. Example: Your merc corp must win 100 victories against a Clan faction to unlock Clan tech.
Most likely,however, there will be a "black market" like proposed in the last NGNG interview,where you can buy Clan tech at high prices.

Well, i expressed my thoughts. Time will show us. Now it is your moment,my fellow trothkins! What do you think?

Edited by CyclonerM, 08 September 2013 - 11:03 AM.

[Pht]

There's another way to make it work without emasculating the tech and thus showing that you just don't care about the setting as it actually is.

Simply limit the number of clan mechs to 1 clan for every 2 IS mechs. Also, set the servers that way, so the 2:1 exists in each individual drop - obviously in some of the CW matches, this rule could be lifted.

They can also do honor rules, because they're doing a persistent universe.

All they have to do is track who's shooting at who and set their credits take based upon the clan honor rules. The servers are already identifying who shot who and when they did it.

Yes, this could even enforce the "well, they double teamed us first, so honor rules are OFF!" thing, and the per-clan honor rules.

It appears though, they're going to beat the "clantech" pinata, instead of trying to make a supposedly persistent game work like the setting that it's supposedly based upon.

Edited by Pht, 08 September 2013 - 10:41 AM.

[CyclonerM]

Pht, on 08 September 2013 - 10:39 AM, said:

There's another way to make it work without emasculating the tech and thus showing that you just don't care about the setting as it actually is.

Simply limit the number of clan mechs to 1 clan for every 2 IS mechs. Also, set the servers that way, so the 2:1 exists in each individual drop - obviously in some of the CW matches, this rule could be lifted.

They can also do honor rules, because they're doing a persistent universe.

All they have to do is track who's shooting at who and set their credits take based upon the clan honor rules. The servers are already identifying who shot who and when they did it.

Yes, this could even enforce the "well, they double teamed us first, so honor rules are OFF!" thing, and the per-clan honor rules.

It appears though, they're going to beat the "clantech" pinata, instead of trying to make a supposedly persistent game work like the setting that it's supposedly based upon.

i am sure Zellbrigen rules in public matches will bring away from the Clans so many people that everyone will fail to find a match. It will simply not work. But i would like it,even if it makes the game more difficult (or because of that?)

Ah,believe me, i strongly reccomend at least 2 stars vs a company of 3 lances (10vs12),i just forgot to write it
and i care more than you can think about the setting, i just want it to work in a real time FPS game without destroying the "balance" of the IS weapons and 'mechs.

[Pht]

CyclonerM, on 08 September 2013 - 11:05 AM, said:

i am sure Zellbrigen rules in public matches will bring away from the Clans so many people that everyone will fail to find a match. It will simply not work. But i would like it,even if it makes the game more difficult (or because of that?)

Remember the positives of being a clanner; especially at first - the FULL clan-tech advantages ... in range, weight, damage output, heat dumping capacity ... all of it.

I would also say that it might also be worthwhile to make the tech a little bit cheaper for those who play purely as clanners - don't hit them with a credit take per game debuff; yes, they will, INDIVIDUALLY ... kill more and do more damage. But, however, if they do atually limit the number of clan mechs available - and maybe have some sort of implementation of clan bidding procedures... the clanners could actually get their tech at slightly cheaper rates.

Quote

Ah,believe me, i strongly reccomend at least 2 stars vs a company of 3 lances (10vs12),i just forgot to write it
and i care more than you can think about the setting, i just want it to work in a real time FPS game without destroying the "balance" of the IS weapons and 'mechs.

I'm not razzing you. I'm trying to ever so politely stick my thumb in the developers eyes for missing something that's so obvious that I recognized it within minutes of reading your post... also for their continued appeal to "intent" and "flavor" every time they decide to toss something from the setting out the window. We deserve better justifications, if they're going to give any.

Some of us have been waiting since 1984... and have been monitarly supporting the setting since than.

Edited by Pht, 08 September 2013 - 11:19 AM.

[Skye Storm]

The most important statement you made was the lack of inner sphere sized hardpoints. This is critical to canon in my opinion and should be absolutely necessary. In battletech an unbalance mech was easier to drop or harder to shoot. Yet we walk around perfectly fine.

[Pht]

Hardpoints shouldn't be rubber, like they are now .... not for any mech.

It comes as close as you could possibly get to the hell of MW3 walking gunbags that only differ visually and in weight without actually doing mw3 gunbags.

This is just another facet that's going to be ... scary ... to see how it gets done for the clans.

Imagine an omnimech in which the pod"space" isn't limited by by the actual pod size, but rather the size of the free space in the location the pod is in.

A single omni-slot in an arm or torso that's otherwise empty will allow a mech to mount virtually ANY weapon in that slot that tonnage allows.

Omnimechs will be powerful enough without giving them rubberpoints.

[CyclonerM]

Skye Storm, on 08 September 2013 - 11:19 AM, said:

The most important statement you made was the lack of inner sphere sized hardpoints. This is critical to canon in my opinion and should be absolutely necessary. In battletech an unbalance mech was easier to drop or harder to shoot. Yet we walk around perfectly fine.

Right. And do not forget that with sized hardpoints there will be less and less "unbalanced" builds and thus less balance problems, less up and downs with the weapons stats, maybe no Ghost Heat .. Less problems in general. Each 'Mech more unique. And not less important, more canon (not fully canon but still better than "put in it what you want!"

Edited by CyclonerM, 08 September 2013 - 11:35 AM.

[Macbrea]

Do it this way..

1) Ferrious Fibre and Endo steel are 7 slots
2) Double heat sinks take 2 slots.
3) Engines are locked ot mech (Example: A Timberwolf comes with a 375 XL engine) it cannot be changed out
4) Weapons choices are clan specific clan weapons
5) Clan is open to all players
6) Clan assaults drop in groups of two stars (of 5 mechs) vs either (2 stars or 3 lances)
7) Gains no experience from assists
8) Gains no c-bills from assists.

That would be pretty simple.

[CyclonerM]

Macbrea, on 08 September 2013 - 12:03 PM, said:

7) Gains no experience from assists
8) Gains no c-bills from assists.

If the enemy breaks Zellbrigen a Clan commander can declare a grand melee and stop using Zell

[Pht]

I'm thinking they could even do some sort of implementation of the clan's bidding procedures.

[CyclonerM]

Pht, on 08 September 2013 - 12:38 PM, said:

I'm thinking they could even do some sort of implementation of the clan's bidding procedures.

They could, but the only thing that will reflect it will be the 10vs12.

[Macbrea]

You may have to for clan state that a person gets no exp for assists and no c-bills/clan-honor for assist. But, you will need to make sure that a kill is actually defined as the person that does the most damage to the opponent. Not the individual that gets the killing blow. Otherwise, you will have kill stealing.

[Morhadel]

The only reasons hardpoints exist in this game
1. this reason is secondary, To keep people from doing what happened with boating of MW3 online play, If you didn't run an UAC20 you where just a bump in the road.

2.The MAIN reason, to force you to buy more then one variant of a mech. Because some people will spend real money on something you can get for free.

The only limit to Omni-pod space of a clan mech is total omni-pod weight available and the critical slots of a location, whether that is the arm or the torso.

Edited by Morhadel, 08 September 2013 - 03:30 PM.

[Heldar1]

How about, lets let the PGI acknowledged clans be the clanners? Don't worry this is no way biased for Clan Wolf and the likes

[KhanCipher]

Morhadel, on 08 September 2013 - 03:28 PM, said:

The only reasons hardpoints exist in this game
1. this reason is secondary, To keep people from doing what happened with boating of MW3 online play, If you didn't run an UAC20 you where just a bump in the road.

i'm sure hardpoints prevented boating in MW4... the fact that pgi thought they had to introduce "ghost heat" to MWO shows that...

Morhadel, on 08 September 2013 - 03:28 PM, said:

2.The MAIN reason, to force you to buy more then one variant of a mech. Because some people will spend real money on something you can get for free.

What PGI says: "We want to give every variant a purpose."
What's really going on: "Buy moar mek bayz plox." (and with the recent "change of direction"... that wouldn't surprise me)

[CyclonerM]

KhanCipher, on 09 September 2013 - 11:54 PM, said:

i'm sure hardpoints prevented boating in MW4...

[...]

"Buy moar mek bayz plox."

Seyla.

[Gremlich Johns]

You are wasting your breath.

The Clans will be toned up IS garbage. No way PGI is going to strip their player base by putting in a true opponent.

"We are not going to make the same mistake" ~ Bryan Eckman.

[CyclonerM]

Gremlich Johns, on 10 September 2013 - 07:27 PM, said:

You are wasting your breath.

The Clans will be toned up IS garbage. No way PGI is going to strip their player base by putting in a true opponent.

"We are not going to make the same mistake" ~ Bryan Eckman.

If they tweaks the numbers (thing that they will likely do),well i know there is no other way, i hope at least that they keep some canon concepts like Omni-mechs with fixed armor/engine/etc, stars instead of lances, faction restricted 'Mechs for the Omnies and some other stuff like no mixed tech (unlikely, Bryan already spoke of a possible "black market").

[Naja]

I'm probably in the minority, but I'd be OK if IS and Clan mechs in MWO were different in aesthetics only. Sure some people will be annoyed by not having their uber tech, but is it really worth it at the expense of game play?

Even a developer with far more experience would struggle to balance two asymmetrical forces, in fact I can't think of a single game that even attempted to, let alone executed it well.

If my Mad Dog looks like a Mad Dog, acts like a Mad Dog, Smells and sounds like a Mad Dog, but is only as good as the IS catapult? Sorry, can't hear you over the sound of my {Noble MechWarrior} noises cause I'm in a Mad Dog =D

It'll rub some people the wrong way for sure, but it means an easier to balance system (and let's face it the dev's have enough on their hands with just one faction) and doesn't invalidate IS tech.

Also, I'm super skeptical about the idea of lop sided teams. If they did go that route, I foresee one of two outcomes:

• Clan tech is balanced at the pug level - Pugs roughly even, but premade clanners have obvious advantage.
  
• Clan tech balanced at premade level - Premades roughly even, pug clanners get stomped due to lack of communication compounding small ground.

But whatever route they take, If I get a Mad Dog, I don't even care if I get my freeborn clanner behind (yeah you heard me, we don't discriminate ^^ ) handed to me on a silver platter.

...Mad Dog =D

Edited by Naja, 15 September 2013 - 10:25 PM.

[Grey Rabbit]

Quote

[color=#959595]I thought Loyalty points in an Inner Sphere faction could unlock (a LOT of LPs) the assignment of Clan 'mechs or at least Clan tech, reflecting the salvage of the rare victories over the Clans. It will require a high amount of LPs because only the most experienced and élite units received salvaged Clan tech. [/color]

[color=#959595]Merc Corps could get Clan tech salvages in other ways,for example achieving challenges and objectives. Example: Your merc corp must win 100 victories against a Clan faction to unlock Clan tech. [/color]
[color=#959595]Most likely,however, there will be a "black market" like proposed in the last NGNG interview,where you can buy Clan tech at high prices. [/color]

This is similar to something I was thinking about. I was thinking of another kind of currency, though. Instead of earning salvage C-bills on clan mechs, Clan vouchers. You could earn them alongside the salvage C-bills for IS mechs and use them to buy clan tech at crazy high prices from your faction. Loyalty points seems, to me at least, to be more for stuff for your faction specifically.