211 replies to this topic

[Alpha087]

Ax2Grind, on 10 September 2013 - 08:14 PM, said:

Rumors of the PPC being dead are wildly inaccurate. PPC and ERPPC both have a place and are both still viable. I see them and use them in PUG, 4 man, and 12 man drops. You would not see these weapons in competitive 12 mans if they were useless.

PPC's are just no longer easily boat-able, and the Guass/PPC combo is now tougher to pull off. That's a good thing. PPC's were the main meta weapon of choice for months...its ok if they take a hit so that they are more balanced with the other weapons. Did it reduce DPS? Sure...on average I score 500 damage instead of 800 damage with my PPC mechs...but two PPC's or ERPPC's are still quite dangerous...are still useful...and are still being used by many competitive players I face online...and they still kill other mechs. And yes, its about time the Large Laser felt like a good choice and some thought had to go into whether to take them or a PPC. That's what happens when weapons are closer to being balanced.

And to those who try to reason that its like it was in closed beta, your full of it. PPC's were truly useless then, now they can be used quite effectively.

^ This

[Corvus Antaka]

Viktor Drake, on 11 September 2013 - 08:02 PM, said:

As I read in another thread, popular doesn't mean better. Sure the PPC dominated in terms of how many people used them, this doesn't mean they were actually overpowered. People don't seem to understand this, rather they believe that if alot of people use them, they must be overpower.

Hell Pada, there are already posts calling for a nerf to Large Lasers because they are now the "Popular" weapon. This is a weapon that has never even been on the radar as a OPed weapon up until they added all this heat to the PPC and ER PPCs. Now people are transitioning to the Large Laser and suddenly the calls for Nerfage emerge. I mean think about it, if the PPC and ER PPC was balanced at their current values, then people wouldn't suddenly start complaining about the Large Laser being OP simply because they wouldn't appear on every mech and "appear" to be Overpowered due to how popular they are.

One last concept. You talk about them only being increased 1 or 2 more heat. Well envision this. I have a glass, it can hold 8 ounces of water. Now I can easily fill the glass with 6 ounces of water and carry it around and not spill it. At 7 ounces I can still carry it around but I have to be careful. At 8 ounces, the slightest shake causes some of the water to spill. At 9 ounces, the glass becomes useless. This is what is going on with the PPC and ER PPC right now. For example at 11 heat, the ER PPC was very manageable with heat. At 12, it started to get hard to manage but it was still tollerable. At 15, the cup runneth over. The point is that there is a breaking point and sometimes even a small change will cause something to move past the breaking point. Right now the PPC and ER PPC are definately past the breaking point.

I've been running everything from my 1 ERPPC raven to a 4ERPPC stalker and some inbetween builds with 2 ERPPC and while the 15 heat is hard to manage, as a pilot using them I take advantage of their obvious combat advantages when used from cover and their long-range sniping capabilities.

I don't even hardly feel the 10/15 heat is a nurf so much as back to where it should have been all along, and I have had no problems getting strong performances from my PPC equipped mechs.

The pinpoint & use of cover combined with jumpsniping and movement still give huge advantages over lasers, and while lasers now do have their place, in the hands of a good pilot with strong aim the ERPPC is still unbelievably fearsome. a 4 ERPPC stalker is still a monster that can kill anything it runs into with only 3 full volleys, and the only thing that changed was that it went from everymans gun back to a skill based gun like it is noted in tabletop.

I certainly never feel disadvantaged to lasers. The ERPPC is my highest damage weapon across all my guns, and even after these changes I find it remains incredibly useful and powerful. If heat is lowered it will go back to the staple sniping gun, and the ERLarge will once again be totally useless as it sprays it's damage all over enemy mechs at 900+ meters unless they stand still and take it - which usually only rookies do.

[TOGSolid]

Quote

Right now the PPC and ER PPC are definately past the breaking point.

They really aren't. I've been using them and doing perfectly fine with them. The difference is that now PPCs require an actual level of skill to use.

People will always cry for a nerf to whatever is popular because there are a lot of fraudulent players that post on these forums as if they were competent players. It's PGI's job to analyze their data and determine whether the windowlickers have an actual point or if they're just being bad.

Edited by TOGSolid, 11 September 2013 - 09:06 PM.

[xengk]

Karl Streiger, on 11 September 2013 - 01:43 AM, said:

Well brackets still work - had once a 8Q with two ER-PPC and 5 MLAS - for the same reason - although it was simpler in usage. (and i only loos 3 dmg to your build - and have a faster engine)

Only because of Ghost Heat we have this discussion - because in all other circumstances a Quad LLAS or Quad PPC Awesome would outgun you in any case

I used to run the 8Q with 5LLaz, they are great for their role in close range support but I dislike the need to expose the big CT to get off the full LLaz duration. Later changed it to a 5 PPC build for long range sniper. (some player might remember seeing a 8Q with Skyline camo of bright green top and mid, with purple legs announcing HULK SMASH at the start of each match)

The main reason I rebuild my 8Q with LLaz is the new projectile speed of PPC, I find my accuracy greatly deteriorated for shooting at >800m, while my 600m accuracy still remain the same. Now I have rework the 8Q to fit my new role as mid range support, being this close to the brawl I become a tempting target for light and fast medium, hence the need more lazers for defense.

[SteelPaladin]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 11 September 2013 - 08:56 PM, said:

I've been running everything from my 1 ERPPC raven to a 4ERPPC stalker and some inbetween builds with 2 ERPPC and while the 15 heat is hard to manage, as a pilot using them I take advantage of their obvious combat advantages when used from cover and their long-range sniping capabilities.

I'm curious as to what your heatsink setup is with a 4 ER PPC mech. In order for it to be worth it to mount 4, you have to be firing the last PPC less than 4 seconds after firing the first, which means (fired in pairs to not hit ghost heat) pulling 60 heat in under 4 seconds. You can certainly tear something up in 3 volleys, but how long does it take to put out 3 volleys when they add up to nearly 200 heat?

My ON1-K psuedo-Marauder setup is rather effective (in my terms at least), but 16 DHS just barely supports 2 ER PPCs chain fired (forget pair fired) for a couple of volleys before having to retreat or switch to ballistic. I'm going to be sad when they nerf the UAC/5, because it's my only sustainable long-range weapon.

Edited by SteelPaladin, 11 September 2013 - 11:17 PM.

[TOGSolid]

Quote

I'm going to be sad when they nerf the UAC/5, because it's my only sustainable long-range weapon.

You're joking right?

[Kaijin]

Khobai, on 11 September 2013 - 12:45 AM, said:

No thats never gonna happen. I think the best I can hope for at this point is a stock mech only gamemode. Because PGI doesnt seem to be able to balance customization.

Stock mech only gamemode would be nice. Slot limited customization across the board (except on Solaris) would be nicer. Of the two, the former is more likely though.

[YueFei]

SteelPaladin, on 11 September 2013 - 11:14 PM, said:

I'm curious as to what your heatsink setup is with a 4 ER PPC mech. In order for it to be worth it to mount 4, you have to be firing the last PPC less than 4 seconds after firing the first, which means (fired in pairs to not hit ghost heat) pulling 60 heat in under 4 seconds. You can certainly tear something up in 3 volleys, but how long does it take to put out 3 volleys when they add up to nearly 200 heat?

My ON1-K psuedo-Marauder setup is rather effective (in my terms at least), but 16 DHS just barely supports 2 ER PPCs chain fired (forget pair fired) for a couple of volleys before having to retreat or switch to ballistic. I'm going to be sad when they nerf the UAC/5, because it's my only sustainable long-range weapon.

He probably positions himself well so that enemies don't get to take him on in a sustained engagement. Exchange salvos, hunker down, wait a bit or move and reposition while heat bleeds off completely, then come out and shoot from a different spot. Use teammates as a screen so that any brawlers trying to close with you have to wade through a pile of your own team first.

I figure you can do 20 DHS with STD300 and near max armor in a Stalker. 4 ERPPCs generate 60 heat, but with Elite efficiencies he bleeds 39.1 heat every 10 seconds.

Yes, the sustainable DPS sucks. But think of him as a quarterback shifting in the passing pocket. As the enemy moves to try to flank him and get closer, he shifts around inside the pocket of his teammates to make sure that any attempt to close in on him will be met with a murderous crossfire.

[D A T A]

ppc lost their dps ability, that sucks, heat values need to be 8 and 12

[Kernfeuer]

IL MECHWARRIOR, on 12 September 2013 - 01:58 AM, said:

ppc lost their dps ability, that sucks, heat values need to be 8 and 12

...just NO

Ppc´s are almost fine..the only thing they could change back is the Travel speed..its an bit low for an long range sniper weapon..thats all

[Karl Streiger]

Kernfeuer, on 12 September 2013 - 02:37 AM, said:

...just NO

Ppc´s are almost fine..the only thing they could change back is the Travel speed..its an bit low for an long range sniper weapon..thats all

But it feels much better when you hit a target at 16.00 -

[SgtKinCaiD]

I agree with the different nerfs but 0 damage under 90m is overkill. It should have been reduced damage under 90m.

[MadCat02]

deanon, on 10 September 2013 - 05:25 AM, said:

The heat cost is to high, never put out enough damage for them to be worth it, Large Lasers are pretty much allways better since they allow you to fire more.

Tried them with my highlander and 15 double heatsinks..

You only have 15 double heatsinks for ppc ? Theres your problem

If you gona go laser build you should have 19 to 22

[Joseph Mallan]

MadCat02, on 12 September 2013 - 06:11 AM, said:

You only have 15 double heatsinks for ppc ? Theres your problem

If you gona go laser build you should have 19 to 22

We should only need 10 sinks for a PPC... Stupid Solaris and its dumb rules.

[Corvus Antaka]

SteelPaladin, on 11 September 2013 - 11:14 PM, said:

I'm curious as to what your heatsink setup is with a 4 ER PPC mech. In order for it to be worth it to mount 4, you have to be firing the last PPC less than 4 seconds after firing the first, which means (fired in pairs to not hit ghost heat) pulling 60 heat in under 4 seconds. You can certainly tear something up in 3 volleys, but how long does it take to put out 3 volleys when they add up to nearly 200 heat?

My ON1-K psuedo-Marauder setup is rather effective (in my terms at least), but 16 DHS just barely supports 2 ER PPCs chain fired (forget pair fired) for a couple of volleys before having to retreat or switch to ballistic. I'm going to be sad when they nerf the UAC/5, because it's my only sustainable long-range weapon.

Actually you can alpha the 4 ERPPC and survive, and though you will take some internal damage as a last resort it can work in a pinch. it'll put you over 100% though.

Generally I just fire 2 and 2 or move to link fire. Yes, 3 might be more reasonable, but 4 is a "semi-masakari" and plus I like to run it for the challenge. So far I have to conclude that despite all the nurfs this mech is STILL very very dangerous as a sniper. Misses hurt a lot more though, and no doubt there is other more efficient builds, but for sheer hot firepower nothing beats it.

21DHS btw.

[SteelPaladin]

TOGSolid, on 11 September 2013 - 11:28 PM, said:

You're joking right?

On the mech, for pity's bloody sake, not in the game (though calling it a medium-range weapon might be more accurate for MWO).

The build doesn't have enough tonnage for anything heavier like a gauss rifle, and a standard AC/5 is just less damage for a paltry 20m optimal range increase. All the beam weapon slots are already full (2 ER PPCs and 2 medium lasers), and needing a weapon to fire at a distance when the PPCs have made you too hot rules out a beam weapon anyway.

All that leaves is the UAC/5 or an LRM 20 (or pair of LRM 10s) and, seriously, LRMs?

EDIT: Punctuation.

Edited by SteelPaladin, 12 September 2013 - 08:50 AM.

[Morikuro]

TOGSolid, on 11 September 2013 - 09:05 PM, said:

They really aren't. I've been using them and doing perfectly fine with them. The difference is that now PPCs require an actual level of skill to use.

PPCs honestly aren't any harder for me to use right now. Maybe I just didn't fire them every moment their recycle ended before. Either way, the only nerf I have an issue with is the minimum range 0 damage. If they put them back to doing small laser damage or whatever they were before, they'd be what this game qualifies as 'balanced'. Who uses a bunch of 10 heat small lasers at close range and thinks they'll win?

[TOGSolid]

Morikuro, on 12 September 2013 - 08:48 AM, said:

PPCs honestly aren't any harder for me to use right now. Maybe I just didn't fire them every moment their recycle ended before. Either way, the only nerf I have an issue with is the minimum range 0 damage. If they put them back to doing small laser damage or whatever they were before, they'd be what this game qualifies as 'balanced'. Who uses a bunch of 10 heat small lasers at close range and thinks they'll win?

Well, when I say level skill it's kind of ambiguous. On a scale of 1-10 going from not even being on the scale to a 1 is still an improvement.

[Angel of Annihilation]

TOGSolid, on 11 September 2013 - 09:05 PM, said:

They really aren't. I've been using them and doing perfectly fine with them. The difference is that now PPCs require an actual level of skill to use.

People will always cry for a nerf to whatever is popular because there are a lot of fraudulent players that post on these forums as if they were competent players. It's PGI's job to analyze their data and determine whether the windowlickers have an actual point or if they're just being bad.

What type of skill does a PPC require now that it didn't before? The ability to pause firing whenever your mech gets close to overheating. Yeah that takes alot of skill.

MadCat02, on 12 September 2013 - 06:11 AM, said:

You only have 15 double heatsinks for ppc ? Theres your problem

If you gona go laser build you should have 19 to 22

Your right, the game as it is now needs 19-22 DHS to run PPCs effectively. This doesn't mean that this is the way it should be.

15 DHS is ALOT of DHS and close to the largest amount DHS that can be mounted on most mechs aside from a few Assaults. 15 DHS should allow someone to run ALOT of firepower too. Just look at the TROs. There are only a couple mechs that ever ran over 18 DHS in the entire TRO listing. Why? because 18 DHS in TT would have taken care of 2 ER PPCs and still left 6 heat left over for other weapons to use.

This being the case, you really should be able to run a pair of standard PPCs damn heat efficient on 15 DHS with plenty of room left over to add in a few SRMs or MLs to boot.

Morikuro, on 12 September 2013 - 08:48 AM, said:

PPCs honestly aren't any harder for me to use right now. Maybe I just didn't fire them every moment their recycle ended before. Either way, the only nerf I have an issue with is the minimum range 0 damage. If they put them back to doing small laser damage or whatever they were before, they'd be what this game qualifies as 'balanced'. Who uses a bunch of 10 heat small lasers at close range and thinks they'll win?

Guess this depends on how you use them and I think this is one of the reasons there is so much disagreement about them. If I want to stand back and just snipe with them, I don't find a problem using PPCs either mostly because when I am doing that I am never in a situation where I need to have any sort of sustained fire coming out of them. If you have never used the PPC or ER PPC for anything but that type of usage I sincerely doubt you would notice a huge difference. However if you were one of those people who used them as a multipurpose weapon useful as your primary energy weapon in all circumstances, then you would be screaming as loud as the rest of us about how they are too hot.

As mentioned in the quote above you, a fairly large amount of DHS, 15, has been determined to be too little to run even standard PPCs, much less ER PPCs, with the excessive value of 19-22 DHS being the suggested amount if you want to use them in any sort of sustained fashion. Nothing but a sniper totally devoted to runing these PPCs is going to be mounting 19-22 DHS and many mechs can't due to running out of criticals. This limits PPCs to just a select few mechs unless you willing to totally ineffective at short ranges due to a very definitive lack of firepower. Honestly I am not sure how less options is actually good for the game myself.

Edited by Viktor Drake, 12 September 2013 - 08:00 PM.

[TOGSolid]

Quote

What type of skill does a PPC require now that it didn't before? The ability to pause firing whenever your mech gets close to overheating. Yeah that takes alot of skill.

Quote

Well, when I say level skill it's kind of ambiguous. On a scale of 1-10 going from not even being on the scale to a 1 is still an improvement.

Your inability to read never fails to be adorable.