187 replies to this topic

[990Dreams]

Their description of ECM's functionality seems better than plain 'ol "Let's make a powerful radio noise and give away where we are".

Of course, that signal would still be detectable outside the rage of effective use. Maybe that could be a module. Or part of the command console.

[990Dreams]

Marack Drock, on 03 September 2014 - 08:03 AM, said:

As far as defense and cloaks and stuff goes I'd like to know more about these-
I know the Null Sig System was capable of masking the heat output of a mech and its electronic emissions and was first introduced in 2630.
http://www.sarna.net...ignature_System

And I know the Chameleon used a Mimetic system to outline the mech and then render it invisible but the physics escape me on this.
http://www.sarna.net...rization_Shield
I was just curious of these 2 devices because if they got implemented into MW:O if you equipped both of them you'd be invisible. Your stalker would be able to literally stalk people and mixed with ECM and AMS you'd be invincible.

1. Heat containment. Probably makes the heat efficiency of your Mech awful

2. Meta-materials and/or adaptive paint make of individual pixles designed to mimic the environment.

3. That's the reason that PGI won't ever implement them, and if they do they won't let you use both .

Edited by DavidHurricane, 03 September 2014 - 08:20 AM.

[Maggiman]

Oh i think a mimetic armor (Cuz' it wouldn't be just a painshop...heeey balancing, what about mimetic armor replacing the upper armor layer and thus reducing effectivness of your armor plating by a set percentage hmmm =) ...could be implemented by having equipped mechs blend into terrain somewhat(pleeaase only a little).
Would be mostly usefull while being out of range for the sensors or under ecm and quite nice against snipers i think...

Some dreaming about ecm: What if we had a real sensory implementation. Like with spurious reflexions through terrain and ghost images and uncertain locks and whatnot?
It would be a breeze to balance ecm under those conditions because you can take a much softer approch instead of switches of that and makes you invisible there ....

Of course that would be a nightmare for server side calculation..but then again i can dream and its not as if sensors aren't already quite erratic...

Edit for readability

Edited by Maggiman, 03 September 2014 - 12:39 PM.

[Pht]

Marack Drock, on 03 September 2014 - 08:03 AM, said:

As far as defense and cloaks and stuff goes I'd like to know more about these-
I know the Null Sig System was capable of masking the heat output of a mech and its electronic emissions and was first introduced in 2630.
http://www.sarna.net...ignature_System

And I know the Chameleon used a Mimetic system to outline the mech and then render it invisible but the physics escape me on this.
http://www.sarna.net...rization_Shield
I was just curious of these 2 devices because if they got implemented into MW:O if you equipped both of them you'd be invisible. Your stalker would be able to literally stalk people and mixed with ECM and AMS you'd be invincible.

Null sig was just that ... it nulled your non-visible signatures - radar, heat, magnetic, you name it; heat by reorganizing almost the whole heat system (every 10 seconds you had the null sig system on, you generated 20 pts extra heat), by changng the outline and the paint and shape, etc of the mech to minmize it's radar signature, by using extra-crazy smaller magnetic fields to mask the massive magnetic field of the fusion engine, etc, etc, etc. Obscenely complex stuff when you combine it all.

chameleon - If it's anything like the later mimetic on the WOB purifier battle armor, basically, a super-advanced computer scans your local surroundings, processes that info, and than dumps it to the chameleon lining that's across your entire mech to literally "chameleon" with it's surroundings. It works great when you're standing still. It starts to degrade the faster you move and creates a wierd sort of ghosting effect. Obviously anywhere the system got blasted off of your mech's exterior, it wouldn't work anymore.

EDIT - well, after a little reading, the CLPS system achieves the same effect that mimetic does but it does it by a different means. So the second paragraph above applies only to mimetic armor on the various WoB toys. I'll keep poking and see if I can find out more about CLPS.

Edited by Pht, 03 September 2014 - 05:11 PM.

[990Dreams]

I figured the NSS would cause an insane amount of heat.

But, the Chameleon cloak would generate heat from the very fact of it's usage. hat would then be contained by the NSS. Wouldn't that make for even more hat using both of the two?

[Maggiman]

I guess if you have heat generators like multiton lasers something like a full body display shouldn't generate noticeable heat.
The Nullsig itself shouldn't generate much heat either (Depending on actual implementation) . It would just stop the mech from cooling down..
However apart from hard to evade heat sources (like walking) the fusion reactor generates its own heat. Depending on much that is, a mech should overheat rather quickly even when doing nothing, rendering the nss rather useless

Edited by Maggiman, 04 September 2014 - 07:30 AM.

[Pht]

Oh, yes, the CLPS does generate heat. Six points of it every ten seconds. 26 points of waste heat total with CLPS and NS on at the same time while doing nothing else ... that puts you firmly into the starting range of coolant breakdown... add +2 for running, or +3 for jumping, and some weapons fire, and you're in SERIOUSLY hot and dangerous range. Being invisible in the BT lore means you had better have DHS, a cool climate, and a lot of patience.

[Maggiman]

Ruleswise that makes sense, but realistically dhs shouldn't help, as the heat is contained no matter how efficient you could dissipate it, rendering the nss useless.
But it's nice to know that practical invisibility is a thing with great drawbacks. In StarTrek everything and it's mother should be.invisible given how few drawbacks it has there (Yeah I am a nerd...dann...)

[990Dreams]

In Star Trek they don't contain the light and morph the outline. They flat out reflect the light. That requires an enormous energy density.

[Osric Lancaster]

Maggiman, on 04 September 2014 - 07:59 AM, said:

Ruleswise that makes sense, but realistically dhs shouldn't help, as the heat is contained no matter how efficient you could dissipate it, rendering the nss useless.

Theoretically null-sig would work with laser heat sinks. LHS have their own problems though.

Edited by Osric Lancaster, 04 September 2014 - 01:26 PM.

[Strum Wealh]

DavidHurricane, on 03 September 2014 - 06:11 AM, said:

Their description of ECM's functionality seems better than plain 'ol "Let's make a powerful radio noise and give away where we are".

Of course, that signal would still be detectable outside the rage of effective use. Maybe that could be a module. Or part of the command console.

The most recent text that I know of regarding the operation of Guardian can be found on page 103 of Era Report:2750:
"The Guardian ECM used sensitive EM sensors scattered across the operating unit’s exterior. These sensors registered any sort of electromagnetic wave produced by incoming missile systems and radar at a range of almost 200 meters. The Guardian’s dedicated countermeasures computer would then identify and adapt to the device and signal input, before 'firing' a focused EM pulse toward the hostile scanner. The end result was an overwhelming burst of noise that either confused and misdirected the enemy sensor’s computers, or forced their entire targeting system to reboot entirely."

And, of course, there is the classic text from page 92 of Technical Readout: 2750:
"The Guardian emits a broad-band signal that interferes with all sonar, radar, UV, IR, and magscan sensors. This signal projects a 'cloak' to a radius of 180 meters, protecting all units within the circle. Enemy long-range sensors can find vehicles and 'Mechs within the curtain, but the Guardian obscures the reading, preventing identification. By the time the enemy gets within visual range, sensors can sometimes override the jamming, but most pilots rely on their own eyes."

Essentially, the canonical Guardian ECM Suite is a multi-spectrum "directional ECM system" that includes a radar jammer, IRCM system, laser jammer (to deal with lidar & UV sensor systems), sonar jammer, and anti-magnetometer devices.

Radar jamming is very well-documented & very common. Devices like the AN/ALQ-99 Tactical Jamming System (see also, here), the AN/ALQ-135 Tactical Electronic Warfare System, and the AN/ALQ-184 Electronic Attack Pod demonstrate how such a system would be designed & used.

DIRCM, or Directional Infrared Countermeasures, only operate when cued by a missile warning system of a missile launch, and use the missile plume to accurately aim at the missile seeker. The modulated signal can then be directed at the seeker, and the modulation scheme can be cycled to try to defeat a variety of seekers.
In fact, Northrop Grumman manufactures an IRCM system called "Guardian", that "provides 360° protection against a wide range of missile threats. When Guardian detects a MANPADS launch, it tracks the incoming missile, then uses a laser beam to jam the missile's guidance system, causing it to miss the target aircraft. The entire process occurs in approximately two to five seconds and requires no action on the part of the aircraft crew."
Likewise, Northrop's AN/AAQ-24(V) DIRCM system does many of the same things - "Simultaneously tracks and defeats threats in clutter environments", "Counters all fielded IR missile threats using a single generic jam waveform", and "(provides) Fast, accurate threat detection and simultaneous jamming in all current IR threat Bands (I, II and IV)".

Additionally, laser jammers (which would also be directional) would be another component of the BT Guardian system, and would assist against systems that utilize IR lasers (which tend to operate in the 700nm to 1540nm wavelength range) and/or UV lasers (which tend to operate in the 230nm to 370nm wavelength range) as part of their guidance system; both Artemis FCSs & Streak launchers make use of IR lasers in this manner.
The military-grade Westinghouse AN/ALQ-179 Electro-Optical Countermeasures (EOCM) Pod was designed in the mid-1980s as part of the US Military's "Coronet Prince" program.
"The largest current EOCM program is the advanced optical countermeasures (Coronet Prince) program, a pod-mounted system to warn aircraft crews when they have been spotted, or 'painted', with a laser. The system would respond with a laser to blind air defense personnel and disrupt optical tracking. After testing aboard an E-4 aircraft, the air force has selected the Westinghouse AN/ALQ-179 EOCM pod for production. The system will be used on high-performance tactical and special-purpose aircraft." (see here & here)

The Turkish company Aselsan unveiled a sonar jammer called "Kulac" aimed at reducing or eliminating torpedo threats in mid 2011, and is one example of sonar countermeasures.

With regard to military-grade magnetometer-based sensors,the Guardian ECM Suite might include a directional non-nuclear electromagnetic pulse (NNEMP) generator in order to create enough EM "noise" to overpower/blind the sensor(s), or deceive said sensor(s) (e.g. by making the source of the pulse appear to be further or closer than is actually the case).

So, the base technologies to create a BT-style Guardian ECM Suite do exist on 21st-century Earth, but the problem remains of how to miniaturize all of the equipment enough to fit it all into a single practical vehicle & how to provide sufficient power all of the equipment (which BT addresses with the arbitrarily-large power output of the Fusion Engine).

Also, real-world Anti-Radiation Missiles, like the AGM-78 and the AGM-88, are more prevalent than the BT Listen-Kill Missiles (which weren't terribly effective) & BT Anti-Radiation Missiles (which are Clan tech & aren't put into production until 3057; the IS version doesn't begin production until 3066).

Edited by Strum Wealh, 04 September 2014 - 03:08 PM.

[Strum Wealh]

Marack Drock, on 03 September 2014 - 08:03 AM, said:

As far as defense and cloaks and stuff goes I'd like to know more about these-
I know the Null Sig System was capable of masking the heat output of a mech and its electronic emissions and was first introduced in 2630.
http://www.sarna.net...ignature_System

And I know the Chameleon used a Mimetic system to outline the mech and then render it invisible but the physics escape me on this.
http://www.sarna.net...rization_Shield
I was just curious of these 2 devices because if they got implemented into MW:O if you equipped both of them you'd be invisible. Your stalker would be able to literally stalk people and mixed with ECM and AMS you'd be invincible.

Pht, on 03 September 2014 - 03:41 PM, said:

Null sig was just that ... it nulled your non-visible signatures - radar, heat, magnetic, you name it; heat by reorganizing almost the whole heat system (every 10 seconds you had the null sig system on, you generated 20 pts extra heat), by changng the outline and the paint and shape, etc of the mech to minmize it's radar signature, by using extra-crazy smaller magnetic fields to mask the massive magnetic field of the fusion engine, etc, etc, etc. Obscenely complex stuff when you combine it all.

chameleon - If it's anything like the later mimetic on the WOB purifier battle armor, basically, a super-advanced computer scans your local surroundings, processes that info, and than dumps it to the chameleon lining that's across your entire mech to literally "chameleon" with it's surroundings. It works great when you're standing still. It starts to degrade the faster you move and creates a wierd sort of ghosting effect. Obviously anywhere the system got blasted off of your mech's exterior, it wouldn't work anymore.

EDIT - well, after a little reading, the CLPS system achieves the same effect that mimetic does but it does it by a different means. So the second paragraph above applies only to mimetic armor on the various WoB toys. I'll keep poking and see if I can find out more about CLPS.

The workings of both NSS & CLPS are described on page 101 of Era Report: 2750:

• "The NSS worked on the simple principle that hostile sensors needed to know a target’s exact location and its speed in order to judge a proper firing solution. The NSS consisted of a large number of thermal baffles, closed circuit data transmission routes, and powerful EM emitters that were designed to generate destructive interference of the BattleMech’s EM output through the principle of superposition of waves. In this way hostile units had a very difficult time gaining a weapon lock except at rather close ranges."
  
• "The Chameleon LPS was built around extra visual and near-infrared sensors placed across the armored surface of the BattleMech. Thousands of times a second, each sensor sampled incoming light to form a picture of the surrounding terrain. The CLPS computer would then process this information and send all relevant data to the cutting-edge chromo-ferric laminate on the exterior of the BattleMech, shifting its reflective qualities to closely match the colors of its surroundings. A sharp eye could still pick out a CLPS active BattleMech, but it was much more difficult."

Essentially, NullSig pumps out even more energy across the EM spectrum than the 'Mech would otherwise, but the NullSig emissions are set such that they superimpose themselves over the 'Mechs normal emissions, resulting in destructive interference; it's basically the same technique used in noise-cancelling headphones (and likely some ECM systems), but with EM waves instead of acoustic waves.
See also: here, here, and here.
In addition, NullSig uses a series of heat baffles (which would be placed over the exterior portions of the Heat Sinks' exchanger system) and likely some heavy insulation systems (or a system of Peltier plates similar to those used by BAE's ADAPTIV system; see here & here) to regulate the release of the 'Mech's heat into the environment, thus reducing the 'Mech's infrared signature.

CLPS, on the other hand, seems to use an electrochromic layer - similar to modern "smart glass" and "e-paper" - that can change its color & tint as a response to changed in the electrical currents flowing through it.
In fact, Popular Science ran an article in May 1997 regarding similar technologies being applied in the same manner to the Joint Strike Fighter project (now the F-35) as a stealth system (see here and here).
The end effect would be something very much like "Predator-style invisibility", or the "Optic Camoflage" mechanic from Phantom Crash.

A Photon-class "Scoobee" (the general name for the in-game mecha) from Phantom Crash, with "Optic Camouflage" activated:

The same Photon, with "Optic Camoflage" inactive:

Edited by Strum Wealh, 04 September 2014 - 06:19 PM.

[Kjudoon]

It all uses Handwavium, Wonderflonium, Offthecuffogen and other super derp elements and alloys.

[Maggiman]

Destructive Interference has it's limits though because you can't make em waves vanish without putting energy out somewhere else. Otherwise you'd be violating energy conservation. (Which you shouldn't do even in fiction, lest you want to allow a lot of weird ****). Doesn't mean you can't use it, but it means it's not easy and you -will- have side effects.

As for heat release regulation: If you pump energy into a system it heats up unless you get rid of said energy. You get rid of it by storing it (Chemically/Mechanically or in whatever way) or be releasing it. No way around it.

Which means invisibility in whatever waveband would be rather hard to do. Filling sensors with garbage data and jamming missile locks is the better way to explain it, i think. (Apart from missiles who home in on precisely that...)

Anyway, +1 for laser heatsinks Better energy dissipation with obvious drawbacks. That gif is hilarious =)

SideNote: (StarTrek)Bending em waves around the ship is an effective way to counter drawbacks. And it stands to reason that you can control your own energy output in a direction the enemy wont see. Whats stupid about it is that the basic drive system in any starship bends space time, so everyone can do it =(

Edited by Maggiman, 04 September 2014 - 07:52 PM.

[990Dreams]

Maggiman, on 04 September 2014 - 07:50 PM, said:

SideNote: (StarTrek)Bending em waves around the ship is an effective way to counter drawbacks. And it stands to reason that you can control your own energy output in a direction the enemy wont see. Whats stupid about it is that the basic drive system in any starship bends space time, so everyone can do it =(

In physics of Star Trek Krauss pointed that out. He also pointed out deflector shields, if they weren't mirrors, were effectively cloaks as well.

[Strum Wealh]

DavidHurricane, on 05 September 2014 - 06:20 AM, said:

In physics of Star Trek Krauss pointed that out. He also pointed out deflector shields, if they weren't mirrors, were effectively cloaks as well.

Such a vessel would still be able to be detected through gravitational lensing versus the background (especially if a large, bright object - like the daylight side of a planet or moon, a star, or a galactic disc - is present), since the light from "behind" the cloaked vessel would be bent by the cloaking field and would appear distorted versus light immediately outside of the cloaking field, yes?



It's the same method used to detect black holes - since one cannot bounce a signal off of them (as would be the case with radar/lidar/etc), one looks at the space around where they should be & compares against the general background.

Then again, Trek already has several other means of detecting cloaked vessels, anyway - "metaphasic sweeps", "long-range tachyon scanners", and "tachyon detection grids" apparently being the most effective.

Also, the Trek-style warp drive - essentially an Alcubierre Drive - apparently also makes for an effective planetary sand-blaster...

Quote

Researchers from the University of Sydney have done some advanced crunching of numbers regarding the effects of FTL space travel via Alcubierre drive, taking into consideration the many types of cosmic particles that would be encountered along the way. Space is not just an empty void between point A and point B… rather, it’s full of particles that have mass (as well as some that do not.) What the research team - led by Brendan McMonigal, Geraint Lewis, and Philip O’Byrne - has found is that these particles can get “swept up” into the warp bubble and focused into regions before and behind the ship, as well as within the warp bubble itself.

When the Alcubierre-driven ship decelerates from superluminal speed, the particles its bubble has gathered are released in energetic outbursts. In the case of forward-facing particles the outburst can be very energetic - enough to destroy anyone at the destination directly in front of the ship.

[990Dreams]

Strum Wealh, on 05 September 2014 - 07:29 AM, said:

Also, the Trek-style warp drive - essentially an Alcubierre Drive - apparently also makes for an effective planetary sand-blaster...

Yeah, I read that. Kinda crushed my dreams for that idea.

Then, there is a way you could, in theory prevent that. Shields and EM attractors (all particles respond to an EM field to some degree) could hold it near the ship, and during travel a repulsing device of some sort could keep the dust out.

[Maggiman]

If you can bend spacetime positively and negatively you can make things practically disappear. Gravitational lensing happens due to gravity being always attractive, thus bending spacetime always the same ... direction? (Sorry, don't know the appropiate word)
Then again, if you can spacetime both ways your possibilitys are far from any scope i can imagine..guess is stay with Battletech when it comes to hard(ish) sci fi =)

[Strum Wealh]

DavidHurricane, on 05 September 2014 - 08:04 AM, said:

Yeah, I read that. Kinda crushed my dreams for that idea.

Then, there is a way you could, in theory prevent that. Shields and EM attractors (all particles respond to an EM field to some degree) could hold it near the ship, and during travel a repulsing device of some sort could keep the dust out.

Well, that is basically what the navigational deflector is for...

----------

Maggiman, on 05 September 2014 - 08:54 AM, said:

If you can bend spacetime positively and negatively you can make things practically disappear. Gravitational lensing happens due to gravity being always attractive, thus bending spacetime always the same ... direction? (Sorry, don't know the appropiate word)
Then again, if you can spacetime both ways your possibilitys are far from any scope i can imagine..guess is stay with Battletech when it comes to hard(ish) sci fi =)

The light bending away from the source would still produce a lensing effect versus light outside of the cloaking field's effect radius.

And, either way, that kind of cloaking tech is likely outside of the capabilities of the BattleTech universe as of 3050, anyway.

However... given how the Fortress Republic system seems to be able to both prevent HPG contact AND prevent JumpShip travel through its border (where attempts at the latter tend to result in some "Philadelphia Experiment" style ship-to-crew bonding... ), it would seem that it is made up at least in part by some sort of hyperspace interdictor system (see here, here, here, and here; also here & here for the analogous system from the Star Wars universe).

[Pht]

Maggiman, on 04 September 2014 - 07:59 AM, said:

Ruleswise that makes sense, but realistically dhs shouldn't help, as the heat is contained no matter how efficient you could dissipate it, rendering the nss useless.
But it's nice to know that practical invisibility is a thing with great drawbacks. In StarTrek everything and it's mother should be.invisible given how few drawbacks it has there (Yeah I am a nerd...dann...)

Yes, the DHS helps, because the NSS doesn't *stop* heat dumping - it re-routes it and disposes of it in ways that are harder for another 'mech to detect.

DH - what's interesting is that even though the CLPS is less advanced than the mimetic systems used for the purifier and the void system, it doesn't have the major downside that those two systems have - the CLPS works no matter how fast you're moving.

Move more than 6 hex in 10 seconds and mimetic armor on purifiers and the void systems doesn't work for beans.

The upside to the void system is that it cuts the range you can be visually spotted at by 4x, where the CLPS only blurred your outlines enough to cut by 2x. The farthest away a 'mech can spot another mech using the CLPS is about a half a mile in clear conditions. No, the NSS setup can't be used with the void system.

Edited by Pht, 05 September 2014 - 11:11 AM.