187 replies to this topic

[CyclonerM]

Elyam, on 19 September 2013 - 03:07 PM, said:

I don't have time to go find it, but it's there between one and 3 times used in one or more of the first 10 novels, probably in the Warrior series but I can't pin it there for certain. But the description is accurate.

edit: a quick search found a reference in William H. Keith's 'Decision at Thunder Rift'

"The Mech jumped, vaulting skyward with magical grace on flaring jets of superheated mercury steam. Grayson saw it twist in midair, swinging its laser down to ..."

Thanks, i missed most of the Gray Death books. I might read them in the future

[Pht]

Solis Obscuri, on 21 September 2013 - 01:36 AM, said:

All Battletech physics are the effect of chronometric dilithium antimatter particles piped through the tachyon emitter array between the Jeffries tubes in the starboard warp nacelle and the plasma conduit located behind the helmsman's station.

Exactly the same as Star Trek physics.

That's all you need to know.

You're close but not quite right.


It's pixie dust and stackpolium ... and most of it's concentrated in battlemech grade armor.

[Nathan Foxbane]

Elyam, on 19 September 2013 - 03:07 PM, said:

"The Mech jumped, vaulting skyward with magical grace on flaring jets of superheated mercury steam. Grayson saw it twist in midair, swinging its laser down to ..."

I think this quote is describing a visual effect since the color of jump jet exhaust is often described as silver. Using mercury for or to augment reaction mass is a bit odd since mercury is heavy and a metric ton would not be all that much on a 'Mech scale as opposed to that same weight in liquid hydrogen. Not to mention vaporizing it is probably not that good of an idea.

Overall it is the way Solis Obscuri put it. Real physics and BT physics are just nodding acquaintances.

[990Dreams]

Solis Obscuri, on 21 September 2013 - 01:36 AM, said:

All Battletech physics are the effect of chronometric dilithium antimatter particles piped through the tachyon emitter array between the Jeffries tubes in the starboard warp nacelle and the plasma conduit located behind the helmsman's station.

Exactly the same as Star Trek physics.

That's all you need to know.

1: Star Trek ftw.
2: Star Trek is lukewarm in it's hopes. Dilithium mediated reactions, tachyons, and time travel are the only things implausible/impossible. (Chronometric particles are actually a theoretical concept in a way)

Just a tidbit of info: The jump jets are referred to as having "fuel". So maybe PGI/Piranha games should check that out .

Nathan Foxbane, on 22 September 2013 - 02:15 PM, said:

I think this quote is describing a visual effect since the color of jump jet exhaust is often described as silver. Using mercury for or to augment reaction mass is a bit odd since mercury is heavy and a metric ton would not be all that much on a 'Mech scale as opposed to that same weight in liquid hydrogen. Not to mention vaporizing it is probably not that good of an idea.

Overall it is the way Solis Obscuri put it. Real physics and BT physics are just nodding acquaintances.

Not true. I have noticed that BattleTech is very possible (although contexts [by that I mean the design of certain weapons], names, and weapon powers) would need to be changed. I have studied a lot of physics (not the maths more so the meanings) and made that my answer. Even faster that light travel is totally possible.

[Nathan Foxbane]

DavidHurricane, on 22 September 2013 - 02:33 PM, said:

Not true. I have noticed that BattleTech is very possible (although contexts [by that I mean the design of certain weapons], names, and weapon powers) would need to be changed. I have studied a lot of physics (not the maths more so the meanings) and made that my answer. Even faster that light travel is totally possible.

I would agree BT is fairly solid in theory. The math is where if falls apart. Some forces get absurd. A Highlander for example can reach a max altitude of 30 meters with its jump jets. Assuming it is attempting a DFA (attempting for maximum force of impact) on a one G world, misses, and sinks 0.5 meters into the ground. It will be traveling at about 87.3 kph at the time of impact, hit with 26,460,000 joules or 26.46 megajoules (MJ) of energy, (for reference the KEW-A1 APFSDS-T 120 mm KE tank round weighing 0.005 tons and traveling at 1740 mps hits with about 6.06 MJ and it will kill just about any modern tank from any facing) and imparts 52,920,000 Newtons or 5,949 tons of force on the ground and its legs. Engineering something that can take, redirect, and redistribute those forces is the hard part.

[Karl Streiger]

Nathan Foxbane, on 22 September 2013 - 05:12 PM, said:

I would agree BT is fairly solid in theory. The math is where if falls apart. Some forces get absurd. A Highlander for example can reach a max altitude of 30 meters with its jump jets. Assuming it is attempting a DFA (attempting for maximum force of impact) on a one G world, misses, and sinks 0.5 meters into the ground. It will be traveling at about 87.3 kph at the time of impact, hit with 26,460,000 joules or 26.46 megajoules (MJ) of energy, (for reference the KEW-A1 APFSDS-T 120 mm KE tank round weighing 0.005 tons and traveling at 1740 mps hits with about 6.06 MJ and it will kill just about any modern tank from any facing) and imparts 52,920,000 Newtons or 5,949 tons of force on the ground and its legs. Engineering something that can take, redirect, and redistribute those forces is the hard part.

Ok ...its not energy alone - the APFSDS will hit a single point on the target while the Highlander will hit the enemy at a area as big as its feets...so the energy one a specific point is less.... however the stress for the internal structure would be incredible (for Highlander as well as for the target) - you don't have to even break armor to kill the target.

[990Dreams]

Karl Streiger, on 23 September 2013 - 12:25 AM, said:

Ok ...its not energy alone - the APFSDS will hit a single point on the target while the Highlander will hit the enemy at a area as big as its feets...so the energy one a specific point is less.... however the stress for the internal structure would be incredible (for Highlander as well as for the target) - you don't have to even break armor to kill the target.

Nathan Foxbane, on 22 September 2013 - 05:12 PM, said:

I would agree BT is fairly solid in theory. The math is where if falls apart. Some forces get absurd. A Highlander for example can reach a max altitude of 30 meters with its jump jets. Assuming it is attempting a DFA (attempting for maximum force of impact) on a one G world, misses, and sinks 0.5 meters into the ground. It will be traveling at about 87.3 kph at the time of impact, hit with 26,460,000 joules or 26.46 megajoules (MJ) of energy, (for reference the KEW-A1 APFSDS-T 120 mm KE tank round weighing 0.005 tons and traveling at 1740 mps hits with about 6.06 MJ and it will kill just about any modern tank from any facing) and imparts 52,920,000 Newtons or 5,949 tons of force on the ground and its legs. Engineering something that can take, redirect, and redistribute those forces is the hard part.

Amazing progress in engineering would have to be made, this is true.

Edited by DavidHurricane, 23 September 2013 - 01:00 PM.

[Karl Streiger]

Marack Drock, on 24 September 2013 - 06:45 AM, said:

Gauss Cannons will not over heat you because the Kinetic energy is charaged during launch not during load. the mech is only heated for a fraction of a second.

the Mech doesn't overheat because of the shot - it overheats because of the energy drain when discharging its capacitors or storrage bank to impower the coils of the Gauss Rifle... and it will produce again waste heat when recharging the capacitors.

[990Dreams]

Marack Drock, on 24 September 2013 - 06:45 AM, said:

In Mechwarrior the Fusion Reactor would be a harvestor of the rapidly burning Hydrogen which is given to the mech through its weather armor which would potentially harvest any water in the air. Through this process it would power the reactor. The mech walks because of the legs which are nuerally interfaced the the Mechwarrior's brain to give it a sense of balance (theoreticly this is possible. But in the 21st century we have developed walked robots with a Gyroscope and Hip Actuator system). The Torso is kept upright with the gyroscopes which would be in the hip actuator systems.

Weapons-

The Guass Rifles were a charged Porjectile shot which is why they have a minimum range. They cannot charge enough energy from the static electricity to power the round. Now they r just a Ballistic weapon. A PPC (Partical Projector Cannon)
is essentially a beam laser with a High powered focus in the beam. So in reality it focuses on being long range which is why it has a minimum range. As for lasers THEY ARE TOTALLY POSSIBLE. The U.S.A. has made metal cutting lasers capable of heating to 2000 degrees F (enough to melt steel). The rest of these weapons in MWO are almost all plausible.

Jumpship Fusion Cores-

Well as a matter of fact the Saturn V rocket generated enough power to go mach 36 but it can't bacuse of weight. The Dropship is so sluggish because like everything it has engines that are being strained by weight. A Fusion core would only be able to produce so much as its not an unlimited powersource and will eventually die so they can't strain it.

Jumpjets-

As far as Jumpjets go they are a shaky subject in physics. Although yes they are possible they are also hard to wrap around. They would potentially use the atmospheric energy to produce a thrust which is why they are limited in how much you can launch before recharge. The system would use the Oxygen and Hydrogen in the atmosphere and ignite inside its jump coild to focus an explosion. Jet Engines use a focues burn effect on the rear to produce lift and are not related in this manner. In a mech after the explosion is launched it is focused downwards producing an upward jolt. In other words they are launching them selves not flying and using lift to gain height.

Stalker Weight-

Take this in consideration. It is a chicken walker meaning the weight is strained on the rear of the legs by design. Also its Gyros will calculate a safe amount of rotation and movement aloud on the torso to keep it up. Again this is plausible.

Hydrogen and Carbon injection-

Actually you don't need the Carbon what you could use is Oxy which is in the air which it harvests anyways. Once the 2 are mixed and ignited they could be focused in energy to produce the fusion reaction.

Again with Gauss-

Gauss Cannons will not over heat you because the Kinetic energy is charaged during launch not during load. the mech is only heated for a fraction of a second.

I will post more later enjoy!

PPCs are probably a form of Ion weapon. And Gauss Rifles are probably just small rail guns (mag propulsion techniques are used in both weapons.

[Karl Streiger]

DavidHurricane, on 24 September 2013 - 07:05 AM, said:

PPCs are probably a form of Ion weapon.

Particel Accelerator Beam - or charged particle beam weapon
http://www.extremete...e-future-of-war
http://futurewarstor...am-weapons.html

using that weapon as well as glancing shots will always inflict some ray damage -
better construction rules - and understanding (although I'm still working at a conversion)
Guns Guns Guns: http://www.btrc.net/3g3

[990Dreams]

Karl Streiger, on 24 September 2013 - 07:13 AM, said:

Particel Accelerator Beam - or charged particle beam weapon
http://www.extremete...e-future-of-war
http://futurewarstor...am-weapons.html

using that weapon as well as glancing shots will always inflict some ray damage -
better construction rules - and understanding (although I'm still working at a conversion)
Guns Guns Guns: http://www.btrc.net/3g3

If it is JUST a particle accelerator technology will need to vastly improve. Currently near-light-speed accelerators are 4 miles in diameter or more (LHC). While a (near light speed) electron in a particle beam would hit with Mack truck force, it is not very plausible. I much prefer a lightning/ion weapon.

[CyclonerM]

from Sarna.net:
The Particle Projector Cannon (or PPC) is a unique energy weapon. PPCs fire a concentrated stream of protons or ions at a target, causing damage through both thermal and kinetic energy.^[3] Despite being an energy weapon, it produces recoil. The lethality of the weapon rivals that of a higher-caliber autocannons; just three shots from a PPC will vaporize two tons of standard military-grade armor.^[4] Targets hit by multiple, simultaneous PPCs can also suffer electrical side-effects, such as overloaded computer systems or targeting sensors.^[5] The ion beam also extends to much farther ranges than autocannon fire, though PPCs generate large amounts of waste heat.
PPCs are equipped with a Field Inhibitor to prevent feedback which could damage the firing unit's electronic systems.^[6] This inhibitor degrades the performance of the weapon at close ranges of less than 90 meters. Particularly daring warriors have been known to disengage the inhibitor and risk damage to their own machine when a target is at close range.

[Darkaiser]

Fusion power? Ok...I'll buy that. Jump drive? Kinda need it for any sort of interstellar background.

Can we discuss weapons for a second? A MG that reaches 90 meters? Autocannons designed to bring down aircraft that reach under 600 meters? Missiles (rockets really since they were unguided) that can reach a whopping 630 meters?

Someone in the original game needed to add a zero to all of those ranges and then think about it...

[990Dreams]

Darkaiser, on 24 September 2013 - 04:10 PM, said:

Fusion power? Ok...I'll buy that. Jump drive? Kinda need it for any sort of interstellar background.

Can we discuss weapons for a second? A MG that reaches 90 meters? Autocannons designed to bring down aircraft that reach under 600 meters? Missiles (rockets really since they were unguided) that can reach a whopping 630 meters?

Someone in the original game needed to add a zero to all of those ranges and then think about it...

Missiles (or rockets) are plausible if they receive and initial boost from the Mech. And as for autocannons, I have NO IDEA weather or not you could use black powder to shoot it that far (maybe the mg with gunpowder). I am not a projectile weapons specialist (besides maybe the railgun) and I just read physics for fun.

[Nathan Foxbane]

Darkaiser, on 24 September 2013 - 04:10 PM, said:

Fusion power? Ok...I'll buy that. Jump drive? Kinda need it for any sort of interstellar background.

Can we discuss weapons for a second? A MG that reaches 90 meters? Autocannons designed to bring down aircraft that reach under 600 meters? Missiles (rockets really since they were unguided) that can reach a whopping 630 meters?

Someone in the original game needed to add a zero to all of those ranges and then think about it...

What sounds easier to set up in a table top where one hex equals 30 meters. A 90 meter anti-infantry specialist and boat weapon of short range doom, or 67 hex (two map sheet), two damage, 0.5 ton, no heat, high endurance weapon of mass destruction? It only gets worse from there. I think FASA recognized the physics and/or reasonable military standards fail of ranges when they first made the game, it just got tossed under the bus in the name of reasonably priced, enjoyable game play. Which to be perfectly fair, was the right way to go. Funny thing is all infantry scale weapons have reasonable ranges in the Mechwarrior RPG.

Edited by Nathan Foxbane, 24 September 2013 - 07:55 PM.

[Elyam]

Nathan Foxbane, on 22 September 2013 - 02:15 PM, said:

I think this quote is describing a visual effect since the color of jump jet exhaust is often described as silver. Using mercury for or to augment reaction mass is a bit odd since mercury is heavy and a metric ton would not be all that much on a 'Mech scale as opposed to that same weight in liquid hydrogen. Not to mention vaporizing it is probably not that good of an idea.

Overall it is the way Solis Obscuri put it. Real physics and BT physics are just nodding acquaintances.

It isn't simply visual coloration in the text. As I mentioned earlier, original BT JJ descriptions mention Mercury as fuel source for the jets when in vacuum or a non-usable atmosphere and sometimes as part of the normal jet mix. Some time I'll find all of the material and get it posted.

[Karl Streiger]

Darkaiser, on 24 September 2013 - 04:10 PM, said:

Can we discuss weapons for a second? A MG that reaches 90 meters? Autocannons designed to bring down aircraft that reach under 600 meters? Missiles (rockets really since they were unguided) that can reach a whopping 630 meters?

Someone in the original game needed to add a zero to all of those ranges and then think about it...

OK
did you recognize that it is possible to hit a Mech with a Assault rifle and damage that thing?

-in A Time of War the - RPG rules - weapons like the Support Machinegun and assault rifles as well, have todays ranges
you are able to kill a human even with bodyarmor at extreme range with a Small Laser (Support Laser) - they even have the 50.cal with sufficent rules.

But we have to look at tactical armor - RHA (WII) is BAR 5 - Mecharmor is BAR 10 that means it is lighter more compact and have better strenght as todays composite armor. (i dunno if a couple of ZERO-G produced CarboNanotubes, Boron Nitrid, Aramid and other materials behind a ferro titanim layer - can be produced - that will full fill)

However a 50 cal even a 25mm bulllet (the Mech machine guns could be 25 even 30mm gattling guns) will hardly be able to penetrate such a dense armor that was produced to stop a 20MJ Gauss slug.

But it is possible to hit a weak spot (a joint, a rotator, a heat sink, a weapon barrel) but that is highly inimpressive when done at ranges above 400m... so infantry have to wait until a mech is close enough to concentrate there fire on a specific weak point.

Next - a weapon didn't stop at 300m dead - dealing damage...it is still able to deal damage... but even a laser looses energy in atmosphere - so in the end the energy that arrives a Mech at 3000m is hardly enough to boil a can of water.

- and the LAST and most important fact:
YES it is based on a game - a skirmish board game - played on the ground or a big table - you have hardly enough room to even place the 4 maps for a lance vs lance engagement (roughly 25% of the smallest MWO map)
When you would increase the ranges what is possible or could be possible - and keep the scale - you would need a shopping mal for a lance vs lance game.

EDIT: if he you are able to understand a little bit german: in the German Offtopic Subforum is a story writen by me.... in one of the last posts - i have started shooting... using (25mm HEI or AP bullets as machineguns - homing LRMs were a single blow can kill a tank, 80cm hybrid cannons... and there will be much more - believe me you wouldn't want to play a game - were all the difference between dead and life is the ability to break the lock...before a guided missle places a huge HEAT in the chest of your Mech or a hypervelocity missile breaks through your armor)

Edited by Karl Streiger, 24 September 2013 - 11:50 PM.

[990Dreams]

Jump Drives anyone?

[Mindstormer]

I thought maybe the BattleTech TechManual might have some insightful information into K-F Drives but unfortunately it only covers the components of aerospace units and dropships not jumpships or military vessels.

Supposedly K-F Drives can only establish a hyperspace window in the areas of or outside the Zenith and Nadir of a star's gravity well. What I find hard to understand is why, if one is traveling at FTL speeds (especially if hyperspace is actually an adjacent dimension), does the endpoint of a hyperspace jump need to be outside the sphere of influence for bodies of gravity as well? I mean, other than potentially ripping something off your ship from the sudden stress of instantly entering a gravity field, what prevents ships from jumping into an atmosphere or just above it?
And does hyperspace in the BattleTech universe exist in an adjacent dimension like it does in the Stargate universe, or is it just a way of referencing FTL travel in normal space?

BTW if anyone wants any information on proper mech, vehicle, or aerospace unit construction feel free to ask me. I can always reference the TechManual for the construction rules.

Edited by Mindstormer, 26 September 2013 - 08:43 AM.

[BillHones]

who cares how jjets work... its the future. jk jk.

i really want to know how the mechs dont just get pushed to their faces.

they need equal stabilizing thrusters in the front.

dont answer, "its the future." you have been warned!