187 replies to this topic

[Maggiman]

Pht, on 05 September 2014 - 11:04 AM, said:

Yes, the DHS helps, because the NSS doesn't *stop* heat dumping - it re-routes it and disposes of it in ways that are harder for another 'mech to detect.

So the heat gets reroutet as in radiated into directions the enemy doesn't see? I'd like that, but there is a hitch. This works poorly, if at all, with convective heat transfer, which is the main kind of heat transfer we get in Battletech.

And even if radiative heat transfer were to play a major role, you'd need to choose a waveband that is hard to detect. Which means no near infrared, no visible light (Laser heatsinks again...i feel im gonna mention them a lot xD) and on shorter wavelengths your mech gives everyone an xray examination times 1000.

The last straw would be improved an cooling system that keep the temperature low by using a lot of air volume. Which means your mechs would suck harder than a hoover..quite literally.

The only solution i see is to say, that the nsig system incorporates a heatstorage (Maybe some reversible endothermic chemical process) that allows the mech to operate with slowly rising heat levels.
That means we are near the rules by having the nsig appear to generate more heat than it should and we have an excuse why that system isn't used more (Some real complicated tech for the nsig itself and some exotic stuff to keep the mech cool, which is just too expansive/scarce to be used as its own system).
But DHS still wouldn't make a difference. (I am just trying to see this realistically, not to say the rules are bs.)

My few cents on the FTL Interdictor: I don't think there is much explanation of how FTL travel itself works in Btech (Which is fine by me) but i think we can assume its really finicky when you have basically only to safe jumppoints and a few not so safe ones.
So why not.

Edited by Maggiman, 05 September 2014 - 11:54 AM.

[Strum Wealh]

Maggiman, on 05 September 2014 - 11:52 AM, said:

So the heat gets reroutet as in radiated into directions the enemy doesn't see? I'd like that, but there is a hitch. This works poorly, if at all, with convective heat transfer, which is the main kind of heat transfer we get in Battletech.

And even if radiative heat transfer were to play a major role, you'd need to choose a waveband that is hard to detect. Which means no near infrared, no visible light (Laser heatsinks again...i feel im gonna mention them a lot xD) and on shorter wavelengths your mech gives everyone an xray examination times 1000.

The last straw would be improved an cooling system that keep the temperature low by using a lot of air volume. Which means your mechs would suck harder than a hoover..quite literally.

The only solution i see is to say, that the nsig system incorporates a heatstorage (Maybe some reversible endothermic chemical process) that allows the mech to operate with slowly rising heat levels.
That means we are near the rules by having the nsig appear to generate more heat than it should and we have an excuse why that system isn't used more (Some real complicated tech for the nsig itself and some exotic stuff to keep the mech cool, which is just too expansive/scarce to be used as its own system).
But DHS still wouldn't make a difference. (I am just trying to see this realistically, not to say the rules are bs.)

It really depends on how the baffles are designed (including both their geometry and their material composition) - as a practical example, the baffles/shrouds used in the F-117's exhaust system were quite effective in radically reducing that aircraft's infrared signature.

"One of the more unusual aspects of the F-117 is its engine exhaust system. Like the air inlets, the exhaust outlets are mounted atop the wing chord plane, one on each side of the centerline. The engine exhausts are narrow and wide and are designed to present as low an infrared signature as possible. In addition, they are intended to mask the rear of the engine from radar illumination from the back. The exhaust ducts are round at the rear of the turbofans, but are flattened out and become flume-like by the time that they reach the front of the narrow slotted exhaust outlets at the rear of the fuselage. At the end of each of the narrow slotted exhaust ducts, there are twelve grated openings, each being about six inches square. These grated openings help to reduce unwanted radar reflection from the rear and they provide additional structural strength to the exhaust ducts. The exhaust gratings are shielded from the rear and from the bottom by the F-117's platypus-bill-shaped rear fuselage section. The extreme rear edge of the aircraft behind the exhaust slot is covered with heat-reflecting tiles. These ceramic tiles help to keep the rear of the aircraft cool, since they tend to reflect the infrared radiation emitted from the exhaust, rather than to absorb it as metals tend to do. In addition, bypass air from the engine is used to help cool down the entire metal structure of the rear of the aircraft. The exhaust system is complex, incorporating sliding elements and quartz tiles to accommodate heat expansion without changing shape. Although the system works fairly well, Lockheed has reported that the design of this exhaust system was the single most difficult item in the entire F-117A project." (source)

"The exhaust geometry is typical for a stealth design (cf TE May 87) in that it uses a narrow horizontal slit to confine the infrared radiation pattern of the exhaust into a very narrow range of angles in elevation (i.e. a beavertail lobe shape). Because of the swept trailing edge of the exhaust, it was necessary to fit vanes to limit radiation to the sides, which also conveniently reduce the azimuth over which the exhaust can be sighted. The cumulative effect of this geometry is to confine the volume of space where the exhaust is directly visible to dead astern and slightly above the aircraft. Even a gentle turn by the F-117A will immediately hide the exhaust from a previously well positioned observer. In practice it means that a short wavelength infrared search and track set cannot lock on to or successfully track the scintillating emissions from the F-117, even from astern." (source)

We can't necessarily rule out the possibility that the (probably actuated) baffles included as part of NullSig are designed along similar lines to the baffles/shrouds used in the F-117's exhaust system (and include fans - likely cross-flow fans, if so - to achieve the needed airflow through forced convection (versus normal HS' relying on free convection to remove heat from their radiator components)) - when NullSig is in its "active" state, the heat transfer to the environment would not be as fast or as efficient, but it would be controlled in such a fashion that the 'Mech would be more difficult to pick up on IR.

Combined with an ADAPTIV-like Peltier plate coating (to mask the 'Mech's surface temperature, as the armor itself would get hot after a while & defeat the IR masking of the HS exhaust unless there was some way to mask the armor surface temperature) and the EM "noise cancellation" described in ER:2750, the functionality of NullSig would be largely accounted for.

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Maggiman, on 05 September 2014 - 11:52 AM, said:

My few cents on the FTL Interdictor: I don't think there is much explanation of how FTL travel itself works in Btech (Which is fine by me) but i think we can assume its really finicky when you have basically only to safe jumppoints and a few not so safe ones.
So why not.

From the descriptions I've seen & the fact that so many of the original BattleMech designs were lifted from Super Dimension Fortress Macross, I've always assumed that the BT Jump Drive was always supposed to be similar in effect & operation to the Macross/Robotech-style Fold Drives (see here).

• "Space Fold (1) : RRG YS-2 spacefold. This system normally generates a hull-conformal fold, but is capable of spherical folds. NB: A spherical fold was created by the Macross crew due to operator error. It is possible that this, along with the folding so deep in Earth's gravitational well, was a contributing factor to the subsequent disappearance of the fold system."
  
• "The fold systems were not navigationally guaranteed for any single jump beyond 10 kiloparsecs. If longer voyages were required, the ship had to conduct multiple fold jumps."

More generally, BT K-F Drives tend to fit the trope of "Jump Drive" (as opposed to the Trek-style "Warp Drive"); a newer & more detailed example would be the FTL drives seen in the newer BattleStar Galactica (see here, here, here, and here).

[Maggiman]

Thanks a lot for that F117 link, enjoyable read =)
But it's hard to apply those concepts to a battlemech. Stealth jet engines have the distinction that they are a lot hotter than the surrounding plane (When being actually stealthy and flying below mach 1). Battlemechs (When not firing their weapons) are relatively uniform in temperature, so hiding hot parts doesn't help.
Also, Battlemechs dont move at multiple hundrets of kph, which means cooling with bypassing air doesn't help much either.
And other concepts like directing the hot exhaust into a narrow stream should be applied regardless (To the air outtake that is) of installed systems. Bmechs are warmachines, so simple things like that should really be applied to everyone.

Of course i agree that your average cooling system might be improvable by installing better components during installing an nsig. But i stay my point that if you want to stay hidden, you can do it only for rather short periods.

On jump drives: I think jump drives are the most reasonable system for a scifi setting anyhow.
And if you try to do a million kilometer precise jump over, say, 10 light years it might take only a light tap to get you of course very, very far =).

[990Dreams]

Maggiman, on 05 September 2014 - 06:08 PM, said:

On jump drives: I think jump drives are the most reasonable system for a scifi setting anyhow.
And if you try to do a million kilometer precise jump over, say, 10 light years it might take only a light tap to get you of course very, very far =).

That's true. But by the sounds of how the drive works, I think it would be very hard for anything to tap the ship while it is traveling.

[Strum Wealh]

DavidHurricane, on 06 September 2014 - 06:15 AM, said:

That's true. But by the sounds of how the drive works, I think it would be very hard for anything to tap the ship while it is traveling.

Non-sapient "hyperspace squids", who could misinterpret a JumpShip as either food or a potential mate?
(Granted, there are no known instances of this happening in BT, but it is a common trope used in other sci-fi works; see here, here & here.)

[Pht]

Maggiman, on 05 September 2014 - 11:52 AM, said:

So the heat gets reroutet as in radiated into directions the enemy doesn't see? I'd like that, but there is a hitch. This works poorly, if at all, with convective heat transfer, which is the main kind of heat transfer we get in Battletech.

DHS helps because it's actually less thermally resistive, so more heat energy can be channelled out of them. I also suspect they probably do have fans on their radiators anyways. I know for a fact that sticking them into water allows them to dump double the heat per HS under the water level. Yes, the NSS most likely has actuated baffles, as it can be deactivated to allow for full normal heatsink operation. It might also use something like the heat-blanket insulation technology that the chippewa used, or something equivalent to keep the external armor cool.

OH, BTW, the NSS system generates 10 points of heat per ten seconds, not 20! Memory as bad as swiss cheese here...

Without knowing more exactly how the heat is hidden from enemy sensors, it's really hard to say much more, though the stuff on the wobbly goblin was an interesting find, DH.

Yes, the bt FTL drives are jump-style drives. In normal operation they jump 30 light years per jump; they tend to stay OUT of systems because jumpships have poor position holding drives (space warships are an exemption - they have good maneuvering drives). They *can* jump into null-gravity points in system, but this is dangerous. In BT these are called pirate points and require a VERY intimate knowledge of any given system - and the points move around inside the system. These points are only used when you want to launch a surprise attack. Otherwise, it's a weeks-long burn in to a target planet, giving the defender a lot of notice.

Yes, the WOB did make a coupe of ships that could jump more than 30 light years - one jumps further for, if memory serves, a higher chance of destroying the jump drive. The other can jump just as far as you want in a single jump - but you LOSE the drive regardless; so one jump only.

In the BTU there are rumors of oddities and things happening in FTL travel - but they're just that, rumors. Unconfirmed.

[Maggiman]

I guess i stop arguing the point that dhs are useless with the nsig (While activated) not because i don't enjoy the discussion, but because we still be arguing next month at this pace xD.

Wasn't there a system that allowed a jumpship to store enough energy for two jumps? And does anyone know if those pirate points are related to lagrange points (I hope not, there are a couple of those that are really easy to calculate) ?

[CyclonerM]

Maggiman, on 06 September 2014 - 10:19 AM, said:

Wasn't there a system that allowed a jumpship to store enough energy for two jumps? And does anyone know if those pirate points are related to lagrange points (I hope not, there are a couple of those that are really easy to calculate) ?

Lithium-something batteries-something?

[990Dreams]

Maggiman, on 06 September 2014 - 10:19 AM, said:

Wasn't there a system that allowed a jumpship to store enough energy for two jumps? And does anyone know if those pirate points are related to lagrange points (I hope not, there are a couple of those that are really easy to calculate) ?

I don't think there is a way to store enough energy for two jumps. I mean, you could, but no one has designed it.

CyclonerM, on 06 September 2014 - 10:27 AM, said:

Lithium-something batteries-something?

Actually, I think they use germanium to store energy. I have no clue how they came up with that.

[kosmos1214]

Strum Wealh, on 06 September 2014 - 08:06 AM, said:

Non-sapient "hyperspace squids", who could misinterpret a JumpShip as either food or a potential mate?
(Granted, there are no known instances of this happening in BT, but it is a common trope used in other sci-fi works; see here, here & here.)

well its nice to see im not the only tropist on these boards nice to meet you

DavidHurricane, on 06 September 2014 - 10:29 AM, said:

I don't think there is a way to store enough energy for two jumps. I mean, you could, but no one has designed it.



Actually, I think they use germanium to store energy. I have no clue how they came up with that.

well with a name like that i think the lyrans where involved

[Pht]

Maggiman, on 06 September 2014 - 10:19 AM, said:

Wasn't there a system that allowed a jumpship to store enough energy for two jumps? And does anyone know if those pirate points are related to lagrange points (I hope not, there are a couple of those that are really easy to calculate) ?

Yes, there's a system for double-jumping, and yes, it's lithium batteries. Not certain about the specifics on the pirate points.

[Strum Wealh]

Maggiman, on 06 September 2014 - 10:19 AM, said:

I guess i stop arguing the point that dhs are useless with the nsig (While activated) not because i don't enjoy the discussion, but because we still be arguing next month at this pace xD.

Wasn't there a system that allowed a jumpship to store enough energy for two jumps? And does anyone know if those pirate points are related to lagrange points (I hope not, there are a couple of those that are really easy to calculate) ?

DavidHurricane, on 06 September 2014 - 10:29 AM, said:

I don't think there is a way to store enough energy for two jumps. I mean, you could, but no one has designed it.

Actually, I think they use germanium to store energy. I have no clue how they came up with that.

Part of the K-F Drive core is made of Germanium-based alloys (which is the material the platforms are supposed to be mining in the Conquest game modes), and the multi-jump energy storage system in question is a "Lithium-Fusion Battery".

All JumpShips carry some sort of battery or capacitor array to store the energy collected by the solar sail, with L-F Batteries being used pretty much exclusively on WarShips.

As far as Germanium itself goes, the RTGs for both Voyager 1 and Voyager 2 used thermocouples composed of a silicon-germanium (SiGe) alloy as a key part of their construction. SiGe is also, apparently, a really good semiconductor, so it could possibly be used in BattleTech as part of a MIS Capacitor like device?

Edited by Strum Wealh, 06 September 2014 - 01:09 PM.

[Strum Wealh]

Maggiman, on 06 September 2014 - 10:19 AM, said:

And does anyone know if those pirate points are related to lagrange points (I hope not, there are a couple of those that are really easy to calculate) ?

Pht, on 06 September 2014 - 01:06 PM, said:

Not certain about the specifics on the pirate points.

Page 09 of DropShips & JumpShips indicates that the Sol's normal jump points are located 7 AU from the star's polar regions because "scientists had determined that being at a point any closer to the sun would place tidal stresses on the ship that would rip it apart during transit".

So, since tidal stresses (e.g. net forces exerted by the system's gravity) can apparently adversely affect a JumpShip at a distance of less than 7 AU (roughly the same distance at which Saturn orbits the Sun) from the star's poles, jumping any deeper in-system would be suicidal unless the destination jump point was at a Lagrange point or barycenter coordinates (that aren't inside one of the bodies).

Also, another fun fact: the entire process of jumping takes "less than one standard minute" (DropShips & JumpShips, pgs. 04 & 09-10).
Moreover: the first jump (from the Sun's zenith jump point to its nadir jump point - from the solar north to the solar south) was made by an automated ship on Sept. 03, 2107 at 12:00am GMT, one Raymond Bache was the first human to make a manned jump in February of 2108 (with the only ill effects being dizziness & nausea that ultimately turned out to be universal and unavoidable), and the first manned out-of-system jump was made by the TAS Pathfinder (under the command of Mission Commander Norm McKenna) on Dec. 05, 2108.

Also (according to A Bonfire of Worlds), BT hyperspace has at least two "frequencies", where the "high frequency" is used for communications (e.g. HPG traffic) and the "low frequency" is used for travel (e.g. JumpShip traffic).

[Maggiman]

Germanium bipolar transistors can be used for higher frequencys than comparable silicon bipolar transistors. (Something about higher mobility of its charge carriers) but i don't think they'd be useful in capacitors. (Not really my field of expertise though).
A bummer about LG points being useful as pirate points. Some, like L4 and L5 are rather easy to calculate long in advance (At least for systems with well known orbital motions).

[Nebfer]

Maggiman, on 06 September 2014 - 03:22 PM, said:

Germanium bipolar transistors can be used for higher frequencys than comparable silicon bipolar transistors. (Something about higher mobility of its charge carriers) but i don't think they'd be useful in capacitors. (Not really my field of expertise though).
A bummer about LG points being useful as pirate points. Some, like L4 and L5 are rather easy to calculate long in advance (At least for systems with well known orbital motions).

The only valid Lagrange point is L1, the one between the two bodies, as that is the only one that uses gravity cancellation and not centripetal.

Pht, on 04 September 2014 - 07:44 AM, said:

Oh, yes, the CLPS does generate heat. Six points of it every ten seconds. 26 points of waste heat total with CLPS and NS on at the same time while doing nothing else ... that puts you firmly into the starting range of coolant breakdown... add +2 for running, or +3 for jumping, and some weapons fire, and you're in SERIOUSLY hot and dangerous range. Being invisible in the BT lore means you had better have DHS, a cool climate, and a lot of patience.

Minor nitpick the combo is 16 heat CLPS provides the six pints, Nullsig adds ten to that.
I would suspect that it's major use would be in getting to and from the target unseen rather than actually engaging it. Note Both SLDF mechs I know of that used this set up both have DHS (base amount) So running with them active will produce 18 heat out of 20 heat capacity..
(mechs are Exterminator 4c and Specter 4F)

Strum Wealh, on 04 September 2014 - 03:06 PM, said:

The most recent text that I know of regarding the operation of Guardian can be found on page 103 of Era Report:2750:
"The Guardian ECM used sensitive EM sensors scattered across the operating unit’s exterior. These sensors registered any sort of electromagnetic wave produced by incoming missile systems and radar at a range of almost 200 meters. The Guardian’s dedicated countermeasures computer would then identify and adapt to the device and signal input, before 'firing' a focused EM pulse toward the hostile scanner. The end result was an overwhelming burst of noise that either confused and misdirected the enemy sensor’s computers, or forced their entire targeting system to reboot entirely."

And, of course, there is the classic text from page 92 of Technical Readout: 2750:
"The Guardian emits a broad-band signal that interferes with all sonar, radar, UV, IR, and magscan sensors. This signal projects a 'cloak' to a radius of 180 meters, protecting all units within the circle. Enemy long-range sensors can find vehicles and 'Mechs within the curtain, but the Guardian obscures the reading, preventing identification. By the time the enemy gets within visual range, sensors can sometimes override the jamming, but most pilots rely on their own eyes."

Essentially, the canonical Guardian ECM Suite is a multi-spectrum "directional ECM system" that includes a radar jammer, IRCM system, laser jammer (to deal with lidar & UV sensor systems), sonar jammer, and anti-magnetometer devices.

Also note that even Basic B-tech Sensors and Fire control, has some decent ECM capability's As noted in some of the other entry's in Era Report 2750



Mitchberthelson on the Battletech forums I think put it best (link is to the thread this and the following quote is from)

Quote

The Guardian and its relatives are noted as being more offensive than a simple jammer. Traditional ECM is present on nearly all combat units in BT and acts as a combination soft-kill/active electro-camouflage/jamming system (see Era Report 2750's descriptions of missiles, TAG, and anti-missile systems for reference), with "ambient ECM" being a big deal since all of these fusion powered supercomputers are trying to jam, spoof, and/or hack each other to death.

In addition to being a broad-spectrum jamming device, the Guardian takes that up a notch by (according to Era Report: 2750) scanning every few milliseconds to detect electronics it doesn't like, and then firing a nasty focused EM pulse at each system that it sees, effectively resulting in a stuttering cloud of millions of targeted EM attacks going out in all directions. Systems that are hit are shut down or forced into reset. This is why it can even stop laser guidance systems like the Artemis. It backtracks the guidance system and fires a huge EM pulse directly through the skin of the firing unit (or maybe the missile, depending on who's closer) to fry the computer in question. Military systems are robust enough that they will just reset, but this will be a near-constant process while they are within the Guardian's range.

Simpler drones, therefore, shut down in the radius of the Guardian because they are being electromagnetically punched in the face multiple times per second and don't have the shielding and/or computing power to cope. The relatively heavy weight of their control systems contains enough defensive gear to stop the typical ECM that they will encounter, but the Guardian is on another level entirely. More advanced drones can at least cope enough to switch to their backup decision trees.

Weirdo of the same fourms has an interesting comment on this.

Quote

So basically, an EM environment so crazy that a 20th century basic radio would likely melt the moment a lance powered up within half a mile of it.

Further comments explaining that this environment is likely why Cancer is still a thing and that urban fighting is some times considered a war crime...

As the thread points out even some modern Radar systems (AESA) can perform some ECM functions and B-tech uses thoughs radars

[990Dreams]

Back from my 1 week break. What'd I miss?

[990Dreams]

So, with the arrival of -2 ton engines, at what point would the light gas inside an engine be light enough to negate the weight of the engine, or even make the Mech itself lighter?

Would it have to be bigger or smaller? Or could it be both? Let's discuss.

[Twilight Fenrir]

DavidHurricane, on 10 April 2015 - 07:24 AM, said:

So, with the arrival of -2 ton engines, at what point would the light gas inside an engine be light enough to negate the weight of the engine, or even make the Mech itself lighter?

Would it have to be bigger or smaller? Or could it be both? Let's discuss.

The reactor could be made of a superconductor, while the feet of the mech in which it is placed are giant (electro-) magnets, allowing it to levitate the bulk of the mech with a force equivalent to its mass, plus an additional 2.5 tons. The mech standing on a scale would still weigh the full amount, but it would effectively reduce the weight strain on the leg actuators allowing it to exceed the conventional limits. Acceleration, and deceleration would be effected accordingly, however. Object in motion and what-not.

Or, the reactor could exist in a dimensional pocket, negating the weight of the engine, and 2.5 tons of structural support necessary to keep it in place.



Also... I read through the first few pages of this thread, but not the ENTIRE thread, so I apologize if some of this has been brought up already:

Jump Jets: Throughout the novels, they are frequently used in places with no atmosphere. They CANNOT rely solely on local atmosphere to operate. Furthermore, not all atmospheres will be like Terra, there will not always be hydrogen, oxygen, etc for them to use. Some atmospheres may be completely incompatible and cause explosion. There are references to having enough fuel for jumps... it's possible that mechs in suitable environments will run on local atmosphere and essentially function indefinitely. While on unsuitable worlds, they may rely on a finite supply of stored fuel.

Gauss Rifles are not railguns, they are coil guns. While the firing of the weapon would generate next to no heat, all the electricity pumping through the coils would. Just like an electric motor. In addition to the heat generated by the capacitors, and they immense strain on the engine. They would not be a cool weapon.... Though, that's based on conventional copper wiring. Superconductive materials may render this less of an issue. Keeping a mech standing while firing one, however, would definitely be an issue.

Edited by Twilight Fenrir, 11 April 2015 - 02:49 PM.

[990Dreams]

Twilight Fenrir, on 11 April 2015 - 02:47 PM, said:

The reactor could be made of a superconductor, while the feet of the mech in which it is placed are giant (electro-) magnets, allowing it to levitate the bulk of the mech with a force equivalent to its mass, plus an additional 2.5 tons. The mech standing on a scale would still weigh the full amount, but it would effectively reduce the weight strain on the leg actuators allowing it to exceed the conventional limits. Acceleration, and deceleration would be effected accordingly, however. Object in motion and what-not.

Or, the reactor could exist in a dimensional pocket, negating the weight of the engine, and 2.5 tons of structural support necessary to keep it in place.

The first is more of what I'm looking for .

So, what about on a scale? What are some other ways to actually negate weight?

[Twilight Fenrir]

DavidHurricane, on 11 April 2015 - 02:49 PM, said:

The first is more of what I'm looking for .

So, what about on a scale? What are some other ways to actually negate weight?

Ways to make the sum total of the mech weigh less on a scale?

Well... if the reactor were designed in such a way to replace the structure surrounding it, to the point that it could replace enough material to make up for its own weight and then some, the reactor itself would have a weight, but once installed within the chassis it might yield a negative value... And, I'm having a really tough time trying to think of an example...

I guess, the simplest example would be to balloon the proportions... say if you just bolted the legs, arms, and head straight onto the reactor, you could cut out all the weight of the torsos. This wouldn't of course be possible. But, the gist of it is, to make parts of the skeleton integral to the reactor. So that the parts the reactor replaces are greater than the mass of the engine.


The only other way I can think of to reduce the total weight would be to have a tiny jump-jet grafted onto the engine that would run perpetually, providing only enough thrust to compensate for the engines mass plus 2.5 tons. Though, this is just diffusing the weight through a different means. If the scale were large enough to capture all the thrust being provided by the jet, it would still show the weight of the full mass.



The hydrogen inside of the engine could only hypothetically make the mech lighter in atmosphere. The second there's nothing around it, the bouyancy would disappear. Furthermore, the hydrogen would only be lighter than the atmosphere at normal pressures. In order to contain sufficient fusible fuel, it would have to be compressed, and may in fact be dense enough to ADD to the weight in atmosphere.


The negative tonnage could be explained as a clerical anomaly, however. Everything in a mech has mass, including every gallon of coolant. Presumably, this is why a heatsink weighs a full ton, it takes being full of liquid ammonia in addition to the comparatively light structure.

So, if the weight of the engine includes all the weight of coolant necessary for it to operate its built in heat sinks, it becomes (remotely) possible, that the standard 60 engine is such a marvel of thermodynamic efficiency, that it requires so much less coolant than any other engine as to make up for its own mass, plus the additional negative value.

It's worth noting, however, that since mechs presumably run on an ammonia coolant... the volumes we're talking are utterly preposterous. 1 metric ton of coolant is 1500 liters, or nearly 370 gallons. However, this might become more plausible if their coolant were ultra-dense. If mechs were cooled by mercury... it would only take 75 liters, or 18.5 gallons to make up one metric ton.

Edited by Twilight Fenrir, 11 April 2015 - 04:59 PM.