73 replies to this topic

[Corvus Antaka]

Mick Mars, on 18 September 2013 - 01:12 PM, said:

Ghost heat is an anti-boating mechanic in a game that--surprise!- was originally designed with boating in mind. Needless to say, it doesn't belong in this game.

thats right. because everyone was happy about 3 months ago when all we saw on the field where

4-6 PPC stalkers
dual ac/20 jaggermechs

I remember those days. Forums where filled with people crying for a fix to stop the boating.

[Coralld]

I am not a big fan of the ghost heat but it does get the job done which is to prevent crazy OP boating builds. Some weapons should be excluded from ghost heat however like Small Lasers and Small Pulse Lasers as well as SRM2s.

[SweetJackal]

MisterPlanetarian, on 18 September 2013 - 01:41 PM, said:

It's ghost heat or Cone of Fire guys. Take it or leave it. Lower heatcap and 2.0/1.0 double&single heatsinks will create more problems than they solve in the long run.

Double heatsinks will be even more of a mandatory upgrade than they are now since weapon DPS is tied to heat dissapation not cap.

There are options other than Ghost Heat or Cone Of Fire.

For example, a replacement of Ghost Heat could be Heat Reduction on Heat Sinks instead of just Dissipation. Meaning that the first 10 heat generated in a tick (like 0.5s) affects your Heat Scale less than the next 10. Boating high heat weapons isn't punished by Ghost Heat, it's punished by the weapons having a high heat and being balanced as an individual weapon. In this system, firing 3 LL has more than 3 times the heat of 1 LL applied to your heat scale as a greater % of heat generated is blocked by your heat sinks when firing 1 LL compared to 3 LL.

You know, kinda like BattleTech? Not that we need to religiously follow that heat scale and heat values but the core mechanic was a solid means for weapon balancing by heat. BT just failed on tweaking it's numbers, but what do you expect from a paper medium game from the 80s? D&D and AD&D were just as broken in ways.

Another example. Firing Templates based on Mech Geometry is a skill based alternative to Cone Of Fire. To summarize, if you have a LL in the LT and a LL in the RT and both are mounted low (like in a Jagermech) then you will have a LL aimed to the bottom left and a LL aimed to the bottom right of your Torso Crosshair. Weapons either have no convergence when not mounted in arms with lateral movement or they have their convergence fixed to their optimal range.

This is a solution that provides a higher skill ceiling for the game, spreads damage out in a predictable pattern and still allows for precision weapons as well as adding another layer of depth to the meta on which mechs you field and how you fit them.

There is much more to game balance and design than simple black and white answers. Creative thinking with the simplest measures often leads to great results.

[Lord Perversor]

SuckyJack, on 19 September 2013 - 10:57 AM, said:

There are options other than Ghost Heat or Cone Of Fire.

For example, a replacement of Ghost Heat could be Heat Reduction on Heat Sinks instead of just Dissipation. Meaning that the first 10 heat generated in a tick (like 0.5s) affects your Heat Scale less than the next 10. Boating high heat weapons isn't punished by Ghost Heat, it's punished by the weapons having a high heat and being balanced as an individual weapon. In this system, firing 3 LL has more than 3 times the heat of 1 LL applied to your heat scale as a greater % of heat generated is blocked by your heat sinks when firing 1 LL compared to 3 LL.

You know, kinda like BattleTech? Not that we need to religiously follow that heat scale and heat values but the core mechanic was a solid means for weapon balancing by heat. BT just failed on tweaking it's numbers, but what do you expect from a paper medium game from the 80s? D&D and AD&D were just as broken in ways.

Another example. Firing Templates based on Mech Geometry is a skill based alternative to Cone Of Fire. To summarize, if you have a LL in the LT and a LL in the RT and both are mounted low (like in a Jagermech) then you will have a LL aimed to the bottom left and a LL aimed to the bottom right of your Torso Crosshair. Weapons either have no convergence when not mounted in arms with lateral movement or they have their convergence fixed to their optimal range.

This is a solution that provides a higher skill ceiling for the game, spreads damage out in a predictable pattern and still allows for precision weapons as well as adding another layer of depth to the meta on which mechs you field and how you fit them.

There is much more to game balance and design than simple black and white answers. Creative thinking with the simplest measures often leads to great results.

The odd thing is that something like the heat sink reduction ( or somehow the more heat your mech has the faster the heat builds up,) seems to be already in game.

I think it only affects flamers where oddly you need 3-4 more time to build the initial 30% than the remaining 65-70%

[Dimento Graven]

Fix this first:

THEN get rid of ghost heat...

[MustrumRidcully]

Dimento Graven, on 19 September 2013 - 11:18 AM, said:

Fix this first:

THEN get rid of ghost heat...

What flavor of real heat scale would you like?
http://mwomercs.com/...em-suggestions/

[New Day]

Wow really that many yay, hmmm?
On the other side, get ready 1 2 3 JETTISON

Dimento Graven, on 19 September 2013 - 11:18 AM, said:

Fix this first:

THEN get rid of ghost heat...

That really wouldn't work here in that version. A better idea would be to make 30 the point where those penalties kick in with shutdown still at current heat level.

[Victor Morson]

Coralld, on 19 September 2013 - 10:51 AM, said:

I am not a big fan of the ghost heat but it does get the job done which is to prevent crazy OP boating builds. Some weapons should be excluded from ghost heat however like Small Lasers and Small Pulse Lasers as well as SRM2s.

Quote

The problem with Ghost Heat isn't that it restricts alphas, it that it restricts alphas in a completely illogical manner.

Some examples why Ghost Heat is the dumbest thing in the world:

• 3x SRM6 = No Ghost Heat, 18 Missiles
  
• 2x SRM6 2x SRM4 = 4x SRM6 Ghost Heat, 16 Missiles
  
• 2x SRM6 3x SRM2 = No Ghost heat, 18 Missiles
  
• 2x LRM10 1x LRM20 = 3x LRM20 Ghost Heat, 40 Missiles
  
• 2x LRM20 = 0 Ghost Heat, 40 Missiles
  
• 4x LRM5 1x LRM20 = 0 Ghost Heat, 40 Missiles
  
• 4x LRM10 = 4xLRM10 Ghost Heat, 40 Missiles
  
• 2x AC/20 = Massive Ghost Heat, 40 Damage
  
• 1x AC/20 3x SRM6 = No Ghost Heat, 56 Damage
  
• 3x PPC = 3 PPCs Ghost Heat
  
• 2x PPC 1x ER PPC = 3 ER PPC Ghost Heat
  
• 2x Large Laser, 1x ER Large Laser = 3x ER Large Laser Ghost Heat
  
• 3x Ultra/5 = No Ghost Heat
  
• 2x AC/2 2x AC/5 = 4x AC/5 Ghost Heat

Also did things like the AC/2 really need ghost heat in the first place?

I could tear into this system for hours, but you get the idea. It's just flat out stupid, broken, poorly thought out and while the goal of lowering alphas/forcing weapon mixes was intended, it failed horrendously and people will just replace "two high alpha weapons" with "two different high alpha weapons" at most.

Oh yeah, it nerfs weapons/mechs that in no way needed it. Such as the fact that from the very first announcement we've been making fun of the fact they nerf'ed 9 Medium Laser boats (Which were already awful), but they also murdered Large Laser centric 'mechs since they require more guns to be useful and kicked AC/2s right in the teeth, destroying an arguably already bad weapon system entirely.

Quoting a cliffnotes version from another thread, to help clarify why Ghost Heat has to die. It's not "getting the job done." The only problem we ever had was newbies in 6 PPC boats and veterans in 4 PPC boats.... both of which were fixed by adjusting the PPC.

[Corvus Antaka]

Victor Morson, on 19 September 2013 - 12:28 PM, said:

Quoting a cliffnotes version from another thread, to help clarify why Ghost Heat has to die. It's not "getting the job done." The only problem we ever had was newbies in 6 PPC boats and veterans in 4 PPC boats.... both of which were fixed by adjusting the PPC.

I disagree. The PPC & ERPPC at a single 4 shot with no ghost heat would still be a problem today, and the only reason it is not is exactly because you cannot fire all 4 ERPPC at once without taking some internal damage to your stalker. 4 ERPPC stalker is currently perfect - hard to use, tough to master, and yet still good if a disciplined pilot is behind the wheel - as it should be.

[Dimento Graven]

MustrumRidcully, on 19 September 2013 - 12:09 PM, said:

What flavor of real heat scale would you like?
http://mwomercs.com/...em-suggestions/

I don't think it would serve any purpose for me to create a specific heat affects table, however, I would envision a heat affects table that at specific heat percentages, BETWEEN say, 20% and 99% have the following kinds of affects occur:

- Reduction in maximum speed
- jittery targeting reticule (as what happens in jumping)
- Weapon misfires (meaning you pull the trigger, nothing happens, but you have to go through refresh timer)
- HUD display fades (mini map, targeting reticule become invisible)
- Red/grey/black outs
- Random arm movements
- countdown timer for ammo explosion (ammo will explode in 10 seconds unless the pilot allows his 'mech to cool below the trigger point)

There are probably other kinds of affects that wouldn't be overly difficult to add, however, the point is, all we get are 0-99%, fine. 100% shutdown that you can over ride, 100%+??% internal damage, possibly ammo/engine explosion, and that's it.

It's that huge gap between 0 and 99 where pilots can ride the edge for 15 minutes that causes so much of the imbalance we've seen and has resulted in so many of the weird kludges and tweaking to weapons we've seen through beta.

Fix the "no risk" gap, and you'll get much closer to balancing MWO and adding to its immersiveness, while also getting us closer to that "thinking man's shooter" we were promised.

[Victor Morson]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 19 September 2013 - 12:46 PM, said:

I disagree. The PPC & ERPPC at a single 4 shot with no ghost heat would still be a problem today, and the only reason it is not is exactly because you cannot fire all 4 ERPPC at once without taking some internal damage to your stalker. 4 ERPPC stalker is currently perfect - hard to use, tough to master, and yet still good if a disciplined pilot is behind the wheel - as it should be.

It looks like somebody forgot the whole part about "ER PPCs are now much hotter and 4 would be entirely non-viable now" that's centric to this thread. You can barely get away with running 2 at the moment.

[Monky]

Victor Morson, on 19 September 2013 - 01:05 PM, said:

It looks like somebody forgot the whole part about "ER PPCs are now much hotter and 4 would be entirely non-viable now" that's centric to this thread. You can barely get away with running 2 at the moment.

You -would- see 4 PPC builds though. Even now there are still people running the 3PPC/Gauss Highlander.

[Dimento Graven]

NamesAreStupid, on 19 September 2013 - 12:13 PM, said:

Wow really that many yay, hmmm?
On the other side, get ready 1 2 3 JETTISON


That really wouldn't work here in that version. A better idea would be to make 30 the point where those penalties kick in with shutdown still at current heat level.

I'm not saying we need the exact same table from TT brought into the game, but we DO need something other than 0-99% heat capacity, NO RISK, and 100+ finally some risk.

Creating a heat affects table specific to MWO would be a good thing, heck the weapons table while extremely similar to TT DOES have it's differences, so I'd be willing to accept some differences between MWO and the original heat affects table, just as long as there's something there that doesn't allow every pilot to disregard heat.

If you want to fire 4 to 6 PPC's all at the same time, fine, BUT, the punishment shouldn't be phantom heat from no where, it should be that while you're at that high heat, your 'mech is slower, you can't aim, you risk ammo explosions, and/or red/gray/black outs, et al.

The fact that you could fire so many PPC's so many times as fast they could refresh, with little to no risk to yourself was what the problems were. Think about it this way, if that 4 to 6 PPC stalker, or 2ER PPC/Gauss pop-tart had to worry that after they shot, they couldn't see, aim the next shot or be able to move out of the open to avoid retaliation, you darn well know they'd have been shooting a lot less often, thus a natural balance could have been achieved WITHOUT inventing heat from nowhere...

[Victor Morson]

Monky, on 19 September 2013 - 01:07 PM, said:

You -would- see 4 PPC builds though. Even now there are still people running the 3PPC/Gauss Highlander.

I'm all for people bringing terrible builds into a fight. Makes earning cbills easier.

And make no mistake, with the current PPCs, a 4 PPC Stalker would be a giant piece of {Scrap}.

[LawDawg]

Its been said, time and time again how it works..........its not "GHOST". Fire more than 2 of one weapon and your heat will build up faster..... its "Barney Style".

Learn to adjust your weapon groups and only "ALPHA" when you need to. But realize if you "Alpha" and get to hot, you will take damage to your core, so dont cry about that next.


Law

[MoonUnitBeta]

Dracol, on 18 September 2013 - 05:46 PM, said:

Keep it. Seen more variety of weapons on a mech instead of all the same since its inception. For the sake of those who do not visit the forums, there better be info on it in UI2.0

Sweet moses this. Get rid of the "Ghost" part of Ghost heat please!!!! I'm all for transparancy, but invisible/hidden isn't good.

[Hythos]

Victor Morson, on 19 September 2013 - 01:15 PM, said:

I'm all for people bringing terrible builds into a fight. Makes earning cbills easier.

And make no mistake, with the current PPCs, a 4 PPC Stalker would be a giant piece of {Scrap}.

A quad LPL build is *not bad* and is not OP enough to warrant additional heat penalties (just to add to the heavy energy discussion);
But I'm in the camp that 3xPPC's should be allowed without Ghost Heat, as it's so strongly supported via multiple Canon builds.

The Alpha argument isn't valid, in my opinion, as it implies an Annihilator or King Crab can't fire all their ballistics without EXTRA penalties. The rift between Battletech and MWO just keeps getting wider with implementations like these.
If they continue, they might as well just call it "MWO:loosely based on Battletech, reaping selective elements of the IP"

[Salient]

Honestly i don't think there is any reason for it, these problems can be managed in better ways like the latest change to the GR. Its over complicated. It's the sort of solution to a problem that a freshman CSCI student would come up with... not very well thought out and creates more problems than the one it "fixes".

Edited by Salient, 19 September 2013 - 01:53 PM.

[EpyonNext]

Just make it to where if you fire 4-6PPCs at once, you die of heat stroke.

[General Taskeen]

NamesAreStupid, on 19 September 2013 - 12:13 PM, said:

Wow really that many yay, hmmm?
On the other side, get ready 1 2 3 JETTISON


That really wouldn't work here in that version. A better idea would be to make 30 the point where those penalties kick in with shutdown still at current heat level.

That heat scale that you see, the one from "TT" is how they modeled it in MW3/4/LL, for the most part (minus ammo explosions from heat), so how would that "not work" for MWO? Or am I reading your wording incorrectly.

MWO is the only Mech Warrior game in existence that tried to re-invent the "heat wheel," and its completely stupid.

- Heatsinks that are completely illogical (low disappation, and also raise thresholds, something with 10-12SHS is close to unuseable on any hot map)
- "Ghost Heat"

Edited by General Taskeen, 19 September 2013 - 02:30 PM.