318 replies to this topic

[VagGR]

i dont know what PGI will do..but the orion is off duty for now...i dont know if tis the hit boxes or if they messed up the actual armor values but this thing is no heavy mech...

[Redleg04]

Hmm makes sense to me...probably won't ever happen though. They're too busy working on other "stuff". You know like all the stuff they talk about in the ATD posts. I'm getting a little tired of only getting CT killed. I don't even remember the last time I was legged or even had an arm blown off. I like this idea a lot. It means you can get yourself out of some bad situations with an arm or leg blown off but at least you can still contribute in a match. It also means that you have to aim with a little more skill.

Edited by Redleg04, 26 September 2013 - 10:20 AM.

[Monky]

Just posting again to state I love pretty much everything about this idea and the suggested hitboxes. Please consider this devs, give the lemons some love!

[Peiper]

What? Proportional hitboxes? Insanity! (My favorite is getting shot in the butt in my Atlas and have it applied to the front of my mech, despite twisting to ensure the shots hit my BACK when my armor is stripped on the front...)

Bump

[DaZur]

While all this is great... In hindsight I don't think the results = what you guys think it will.

In short your advancing the argument that all hitboxes, in specific... the three / six boxes of the torso should be reasonably proportionate to each other, achieving the premise of achieving equal / proportionate distribution of damage.

Good stuff... right?

Now... stop for a moment and consider the fact that side-torsos yield anywhere between 20 to 40% less armor than the center torso and by averaging the size / surface area of those three sections, you're actually substantially increasing the possibility of receiving damage to your side-torsos along with reducing the possibility of center-torso damage.

For those of you who are keen on sporting XLs, this obviously would be particularly adverse as it would exponentially increase the odds of destruction compared to the present implementation.

Just thinking this proposed suggestion though and considering the full ramifications...

[General Taskeen]

DaZur, on 26 September 2013 - 11:28 AM, said:

For those of you who are keen on sporting XLs, this obviously would be particularly adverse as it would exponentially increase the odds of destruction

Good.

The end result ramifications is also a CT that makes sense though. As it is, it doesn't make sense at all to make the main "you ded" area of the Mech so easily destroyed. Especially when the tool tip for the new players states, "twist your Mech" to spread damage. That's mostly irrevelant on Mechs with CT's that stick out, making it doubly more difficult to contribute and have fun - especially for those of that want to play the Mech the way it is, without putting in enourmous XL's to offset the horrible hitboxes. Twisting is also made irrevelant with a Mech Crotch which equates to CT.

Edited by General Taskeen, 26 September 2013 - 11:48 AM.

[DaZur]

No dispute with any of your points...

Being the rectally retentive person that I am and not having seen it discussed, though it a prudent point to highlight.

Edited by DaZur, 26 September 2013 - 11:54 AM.

[Carrioncrows]

DaZur, on 26 September 2013 - 11:28 AM, said:

For those of you who are keen on sporting XLs, this obviously would be particularly adverse as it would exponentially increase the odds of destruction compared to the present implementation.

Let me see, XL mech that only takes damage to the CT ( Some 70 odd points of damage)

or

XL mech that takes damage to the LT, CT, and RT ( some 120 points of damage) There is the possibility of popping after 50 Dmg to a side torso.

Fantastic, Rewards great Gunners, if he can put shot after shot into the same location, good on him.
Also Fantastic, you are now rewarded for great piloting by spreading the damage across 3 locations rather than taking it all on one. Just like being cored in the Ct, if you are breached you are now able to torso twist; do so.

In the words of Cereal Killer "Spandex: It's a privilege, not a right."

And XL's should be the same way. If an XL engine is a no brainier then something is wrong with that mechs' hitbox.

[General Taskeen]

The XL is definitely brought up a lot too. From all accounts the IS XL's were always a huge gamble and the canon always states their major drawback - I think PGI exageratted that too much with instant death, in a game that requires pin point aim over random rolls, but eh it is what it is at the moment.

There are always Clan XL's or the later IS Fusion Light Engine, which can lose a torso - which I know someone was commenting on my idea of making it so losing any torso with an XL doesn't kill you outright doesn't make "real world" sense, but then there is Clan XL and IS Fusion Light Engine which can lose parts of the engine, in essence, and still work - mostly because space magic is cool yo.

But anyways - going back to hitboxes, the game will likely improve if PGI takes time to really focus on a revamp. There should have been focus on this from the beginning when it was starting to be brought up in Closed Beta.

Edited by General Taskeen, 27 September 2013 - 11:56 AM.

[Carrioncrows]

Updated - Blackjack.

Also in Original Post.



What i've done is slim down the CT so it doesn't take up the entire turret ring and dedicate that to the left and right torso while at the same time having the Arms reclaim the shoulders.

[Carrioncrows]

[Nehkrosis]

Shameless bump

[stjobe]

One thing I've reflected on while looking at these pictures from the perspective of a light pilot is that it's going to be even easier to leg lights with half the lower CT being legs as well.

I don't know if I feel that is a good thing.

[Carrioncrows]

stjobe, on 29 September 2013 - 12:43 PM, said:

One thing I've reflected on while looking at these pictures from the perspective of a light pilot is that it's going to be even easier to leg lights with half the lower CT being legs as well.

I don't know if I feel that is a good thing.

If you notice in the OP and several posts after that it's pretty clear how I feel about the 'Legs'

Killing the legs shouldn't kill your mech. Only killing the Engine should kill your mech.

Kill 1 Leg - Reduces you to 15% movement for 5 secs then you are permanently reduced to 50% speed. Additional hits on the legs won't hamper your speed at all.

Kill 2 legs - Knocks you down, you get back up and you are permanently reduced to 15% speed for the rest of the game.

So yes, though it makes legs easier to kill it almost makes the mech twice as hard to kill, even more so if they have a STD engine as once you kill a location it transfers damage inward to the CT.

Legs -> Side Torso -> CT.

Easy to Crack, Hard to kill.

If these hit boxes changes and change in the way leg destruction works be a positive thing?

Very much so, will people attempt to leg mechs more often with these changes? I think they will attempt to leg them if the opportunity makes sense for them to do so. You see someone with a cored leg? Take it off to slow them down to better kill their CT.

Will you see people nailing both legs? Occasionally, but once again as opportunity presents itself. Outside of slowing a mech down why try and kill a battlemech the hard way when going directly for the side torso or CT is quicker and takes less effort?

The only reason people leg now is because it's the easiest way to kill a mech.

Btw:

Quickdraw

Edited by Carrioncrows, 29 September 2013 - 04:23 PM.

[GalaxyBluestar]

very approving of this thread. the hitbox idea has been talked about forever.
just a quick search and here's some stuff from months ago





and a few mock ups from me


you can see core destruction can be balanced from different size mech to different size mech if ct areas are relatively the same, the side torso shields will very from class to class but this is far better than going through another kintaro-quickdraw-awesome incident.



now here's a size comparrison where you can see with a bit of size tweaking on part of shrinking the treb already the BJ has larger side torsos. you can see it wouldn't take a big diversion to level these two up just the treb arms that truelly stand out.



the legs issue: the sim guy in me says, 1 leg down equals mech grounded but can still torso twist to fight, 2nd leg destroyed won't matter at this point it's reactor or cockpit that always leads to death. problem though is legging to deliberately leave mechs behind, i reckon nobody wants to stay grounded loking left to right on the same field for the rest of the battle so i'll conceed the op's solution.

a little request though. the start of hitboxes arguments began with the stalker introduction against the awesome. CC can you do a side by side comparrisons between the two hitbox models of old and the new proposals and then one of thise pixel hitbox area summeries so we can see if the new models share a simillar CT size with eachother? leveling those two mechs fairly would really be a proof of concept!

if this stuff were to happen can we please get rid of ghost heat? Then see if boats are still evil and if so can we have a fix that isn't convoluted selective overnerfs... like stupid ghost heat.

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 29 September 2013 - 08:26 PM.

[stjobe]

Carrioncrows, on 29 September 2013 - 01:33 PM, said:

If you notice in the OP and several posts after that it's pretty clear how I feel about the 'Legs'

Killing the legs shouldn't kill your mech. Only killing the Engine should kill your mech.

Kill 1 Leg - Reduces you to 15% movement for 5 secs then you are permanently reduced to 50% speed. Additional hits on the legs won't hamper your speed at all.

Kill 2 legs - Knocks you down, you get back up and you are permanently reduced to 15% speed for the rest of the game.

So yes, though it makes legs easier to kill it almost makes the mech twice as hard to kill,

The only problem is that for lights, losing 50% speed means you're as good as dead, being at 15% speed is just lowering the impact speed your body has into the coffin.

Make no mistake, your suggestion will make lights easier to kill. It won't be a case of "easy to crack, hard to kill", it will be more of "easy to leg, easy to dispatch at your leisure". Lights don't have massive amounts of torso armour that needs to be breached in stages; one good alpha and you've destroyed the armour, the IS, and the 'mech. One good hit and it's goodbye leg, and the next can be fired at the 15% speed target - meaning it will be all but impossible to miss, and there's not a g-ddamn thing the light pilot can do to stop it.

I love the idea of redesigning the hitboxes, I really do. I just wonder if it has to be the same for every weight class, as the proposed solution will be a nerf to lights, making them easier than ever to kill.

[GalaxyBluestar]

^^^^^ agreed speed is the lights {and mediums like the cicada's} armour so leg hitboxes should be hard to shoot like the heavy and assaults CT's. so lights and speedy mediums should be exempt from the split crotch leg hitboxes.

[FlipOver]

Carrioncrows, on 18 September 2013 - 11:01 PM, said:

The simple easiest way to fix all mechs is apply these rules:

Rule 1: Destroying the Legs on a mech shouldn't kill it. The only way to kill a mech should be by killing it's engine.


Killing the legs shouldn't kill your mech. Only killing the Engine should kill your mech.

Kill 1 Leg - Reduces you to 15% movement for 5 secs then you are permanently reduced to 50% speed. Additional hits on the legs won't hamper your speed at all.

Kill 2 legs - Knocks you down, you get back up and you are permanently reduced to 15% speed for the rest of the game.

So yes, though it makes legs easier to hit but what it also does is makes your mech almost twice as hard to kill, even more so if they have a STD engine as once you kill a location it transfers damage inward to the CT.

Legs -> Side Torso -> CT.

Easy to Crack, Hard to kill.

[...]

I see where you are going with this, but I have to say there are some things you didn't think of or didn't realize.

Why we shouldn't kill a 'mechs engine (edited thanks to The Boz's input):

Still to be implemented, but I do expect it to be, salvaging parts for you and your 'mechs is a big part of the BT and Clan technology access for InnerSphere Factions.
That being said, it will be imperative for people to be more accurate at their shooting and prevent from taking out the engine as much as possible, so if their team wins, they can use those parts left in the battlefield to upgrade/improve their own 'mechs.

So making it like you explained, will just remove this gaming option from ever existing. Problem is, this is one of the most interesting things to add into this game, why?
Promotes better shooting and aiming, will improve the spoils of a battle and will give access to Clan tech to those who originally have none.

As it is now, taking out one leg works closely to what it should be doing.

Taking the second leg means the 'mech is now unable to move but not unable to fight, I agree with you on that, but for that to work, there are a few things that should happen:
1 - The 'mech should fall to the ground and depending on momentum, direction of the hardest last hits, terrain objects in the falling path and terrain where he is standing, he could fall face down (making it almost impossible for you to keep fighting) or face up (making it really hard to keep fighting also, unless the opponents are there right beside you).
2 - Then after falling, the pilot could use one arm (if he has 2 left) to balance the torso upward and make it "stand" vertically and still use the other arm to shoot, but in that situation, if the arm supporting the 'mech gets blown up, then its game over.

As I see it, for this to happen, will probably take lots of months of trial and error, so the best next thing is to "kill" the 'mech when both legs are blown up.

Edited by flipover, 30 September 2013 - 03:35 AM.

[The Boz]

The "massive explosion" is hilariously rare, and putting it in the game as a random chance is a hilariously bad idea. And it isn't anything close to a reactor explosion.

[FlipOver]

The Boz, on 30 September 2013 - 03:19 AM, said:

The "massive explosion" is hilariously rare, and putting it in the game as a random chance is a hilariously bad idea. And it isn't anything close to a reactor explosion.

So it should be ok to destroy the engine and not worry about the repercussion of its explosion?