318 replies to this topic

[Carrioncrows]

Sable Dove, on 20 September 2013 - 04:04 PM, said:

****

=)



The problem with a mech like the catapult is that nose sticks out so you really have to give it the stalker treatment by snugging those Side torso's right up next to the end.

It kinda feels like I took it a bit too far but looking at the geometry there just really isn't a better place to latch on to while "solving" the issue.

Edited by Carrioncrows, 20 September 2013 - 10:36 PM.

[Volthorne]

Carrioncrows, on 20 September 2013 - 10:19 PM, said:

snip

Well, that looks a BIT better than what the Cat currently has. Not much, but some. Now instead of shooting your CT from behind you they shoot your ST. With less armor. Yay.

[Sable Dove]

Yeah, I can see that it wouldn't be an easy feat to make the hitboxes work. It may require the Catapult to be better off with STD engines than with XL.

Only thing I could see that could change is the top panel of the Side torso that juts out in front of the guns could stand to be CT. That would make it more like the current Dragon, where the bottom half of the CT on the sides is counted as side torso.

But at the same time, it's an improvement, because damage can actually be spread, and if one side is weak, you can still protect it. It would have to be tested, but it seems like it would be an improvement.

[Carrioncrows]

Sable Dove, on 20 September 2013 - 11:35 PM, said:

Yeah, I can see that it wouldn't be an easy feat to make the hitboxes work. It may require the Catapult to be better off with STD engines than with XL.

Only thing I could see that could change is the top panel of the Side torso that juts out in front of the guns could stand to be CT. That would make it more like the current Dragon, where the bottom half of the CT on the sides is counted as side torso.

But at the same time, it's an improvement, because damage can actually be spread, and if one side is weak, you can still protect it. It would have to be tested, but it seems like it would be an improvement.

Not a whole lot's changed directly on, but torso twisting would definitely tank the hits on the side torso's which is the intent.

Though using your CT to protect your side torso's feels odd, it also sounds about right now that you "CAN" protect different locations.

[Sable Dove]

Well you can protect your side torsos currently; it's just that you're protecting them almost entirely with CT, which is what most people aim for anyways.

With your redesign, when you protect one side, the opposite ST is going to take a fair bit of damage along with the CT. It might make XLs a bit more risky, but they would die more slowly overall, regardless of engine.

[Carrioncrows]

Sable Dove, on 21 September 2013 - 12:07 AM, said:

Well you can protect your side torsos currently; it's just that you're protecting them almost entirely with CT, which is what most people aim for anyways.

With your redesign, when you protect one side, the opposite ST is going to take a fair bit of damage along with the CT. It might make XLs a bit more risky, but they would die more slowly overall, regardless of engine.

So "Two thumbs up" is what you are saying compared to the way it is now.

[Sable Dove]

Carrioncrows, on 21 September 2013 - 12:08 AM, said:

So "Two thumbs up" is what you are saying compared to the way it is now.

Yeah. But it's not hard to improve on the current hitboxes.

[Rascula]

Tweaks, on 20 September 2013 - 11:08 AM, said:

I'm probably one of the few, but I really don't like these suggestions. I think it makes all 'Mechs work the same way and almost nullifies their differences.

The point of having 'Mechs with different types of geometry and different types of designs is that they don't behave the same way and don't all have the same weaknesses either.

I think this would make the game very boring and too much of a simple shooter with robots.

Tweaks has a very good point here, as an Awesome fan I have <slowly> come to terms with its obvious flaws and I have to admit id miss the big old Bas*ard if was changed too much from its current incarnation.

Change is fine if its needed, as in the Kintaro and maybe just a touch on the Awesome, but change for the sake of change may loose some of the appeal of the game, lets not forget that not all mechs are created equal, and that's why some of us will still be driving the underdog Awesomes and Dragons even when they're long forgotten by the majority of the player base!

That said, I still like the idea of leg hit boxes meeting at the groin!

[John MatriX82]

In the meantime in my MWO account: http://youtu.be/13QpqArLVIQ

[Carrioncrows]

Rascula, on 21 September 2013 - 03:24 AM, said:

Tweaks has a very good point here, as an Awesome fan I have <slowly> come to terms with its obvious flaws and I have to admit id miss the big old Bas*ard if was changed too much from its current incarnation.

Change is fine if its needed, as in the Kintaro and maybe just a touch on the Awesome, but change for the sake of change may loose some of the appeal of the game, lets not forget that not all mechs are created equal, and that's why some of us will still be driving the underdog Awesomes and Dragons even when they're long forgotten by the majority of the player base!

That said, I still like the idea of leg hit boxes meeting at the groin!

I'm not sure quite what you guys are expecting with these changes, these are not suddenly going to make these mechs unstoppable, or even make a huge difference.

Orions, Awesome's, Dragons, Catapults, and Jenners are still going to die to the getting their CT blown away. There might be a slight increase in deaths due to side Torso's blown out if you are packing an XL, but hey that's the risk you took when you equipped it. XL's are still the way to roll though.

The only major difference is that when that target tries to roll torso away from you, some of your shots are going to end up hitting his side torso's instead of what "ONCE" was a massive CT.

It's not a sure thing,

People with good gunnery skills can still hit that CT just fine and continue to do so, but also good pilots will be better able to fight their machines without being penalized for having bad hitboxes.

Gunners are just going to have to make a bit more of an effort now instead of just lobbing things up in the air and having it all land on a mechs ct.

With all the pinpoint convergence of weapons out there in MWO it's about high time for people to get to justify using it.

Notice this just applies to people shooting at evading targets, hitting the CT will be harder. But for those people that like to go submachineguns at 10 paces point blank, well not much has changed.

Edited by Carrioncrows, 21 September 2013 - 04:37 AM.

[Rascula]

Carrioncrows, on 21 September 2013 - 04:34 AM, said:

these are not suddenly going to make these mechs unstoppable, or even make a huge difference.

Yeah that's fair enough, I think we are all for better hit box arrangement, just concerned that if and when they do change them they don't go too far with it and end up loosing more than they gain.

Edited by Rascula, 21 September 2013 - 08:28 AM.

[Tweaks]

Rascula, on 21 September 2013 - 03:24 AM, said:

That said, I still like the idea of leg hit boxes meeting at the groin!

As a Jenner pilot, I really don't. This would make it way too easy to leg a 'Mech, and it's not where the leg joint actuators are (they are further to the sides of the lower torso). I think this piece should remain as part of the CT as it is now.

[CDLord HHGD]

This should be in an ATD....

Dear Devs, have you seen THIS thread (link)?

[General Taskeen]

Did this thread get moved?

[Team Leader]

I agree 100%. We need better hitboxes in game, and I agree that killing legs shouldn't put you out of a match, just severely gimp you. Should keep you from using jump jets on heavies and assaults too, even if they are in undamaged sections. What if killing a side torso didnt actually kill you outright, but any more sustained damage would bleed through to the CT internals and take your XL engine out? If you didnt have an XL it wouldnt go to internals. That might make stuff weird but I think the idea is one that can be expanded.

[Team Leader]

John MatriX82, on 21 September 2013 - 04:01 AM, said:

In the meantime in my MWO account: http://youtu.be/13QpqArLVIQ

That made me cringe. Then I saw your cbill balance. You dont even need to play anymore dude

[Warrax the Chaos Warrior]

The only problem I can see with the OP's suggestions is that I can't "like" the post 5 times.

Like I said in another thread (that was linked to this one), the best mechs have hitboxes that allow you to spread damage all over rather than having it concentrated in one spot.

Bottom-line; it will make a wider variety of chassis competitive, which means that competitive players will be able to use a wider variety of chassis. It also makes it less likely that new players will blow their cadet bonus on something they'll end up regretting because they hadn't figured out the meta yet.

So, IMO, it's a win-win for everyone.

[Carrioncrows]

Added the TBT to the List.



The TBT has that bottom ring that simply all CT and this tends to give me fits when I try and torso twist, trimmed it down some and of course split the legs.

[Dirus Nigh]

Carrioncrows this is an excellent proposal. Some thing I have been thinking about, but lack the ability to truly create an in depth proposal.

This should the the foundation for PGI to readdress hit box issues with the mech.

Have you considered keeping a small portion of the pelves area still apart of the CT? Not a full center piece, but some thing that goes from the top of the pelvis tot he center. Leave a little bit so when you do run right up the *** end of a mech you have a small target if you can hit it.

[Carrioncrows]

Dirus Nigh, on 22 September 2013 - 12:46 AM, said:

Carrioncrows this is an excellent proposal. Some thing I have been thinking about, but lack the ability to truly create an in depth proposal.

This should the the foundation for PGI to readdress hit box issues with the mech.

Have you considered keeping a small portion of the pelves area still apart of the CT? Not a full center piece, but some thing that goes from the top of the pelvis tot he center. Leave a little bit so when you do run right up the *** end of a mech you have a small target if you can hit it.

If it doesn't turn when you rotate your torso, it should be assigned to the legs.

Here is an example of why:



I am torso twisted almost 120 degree's passed where my feet are pointed.

A skilled player would attempt to as they call it "Roll the torso" to take damage on a different location, but because the pelvic or pelvis are is apart of the CT anyone can shoot me in the crotch / butt area of my mech and deal damage to my CT or RCT which is a VERY BAD THING.

As you see here, Even though I rolled my torso 120 degree's away from you in attempt to protect my CT, you can still hit my CT / RCT by nailing the pelvic / pelvis area. Not a single thing I can do as a pilot to prevent that.

I consider myself a good pilot, skilled at gunnery and I know my weapons, mechs and how this game works. I also aim for the pelvic / pelvis area, (when possible) to hit the CT of another mech and you will find other good pilots doing the same. Not only is it a rather large area but it's also means that all the torso twisting in the world doesn't prevent me from dealing damage to your CT.

It takes far longer for a mech to turn than it does to roll a torso.

See it doesn't matter how good of a pilot I am by trying to evade shots, you can still hit my CT or RCT.

It is for "all intents and purposes" a wall hack and the very definition of "Bad hitbox" design.

I would like to fix that.

If it means making legs bigger, i'm cool with that. As mentioned in previous thread the destruction of both legs shouldn't kill you. Reason above in OP.

Edited by Carrioncrows, 22 September 2013 - 05:09 AM.