318 replies to this topic

[stjobe]

Carrioncrows, on 22 September 2013 - 01:38 AM, said:

for all intensive purpose's

No argument with the rest of your post, but this is one of my pet peeves. It's "for all intents and purposes".

[Carrioncrows]

stjobe, on 22 September 2013 - 04:43 AM, said:

No argument with the rest of your post, but this is one of my pet peeves. It's "for all intents and purposes".

Dully noted.

It's been years since college and unless Word says "NIEN!" then the finer points of grammar escape me, in the future i shall resign myself to smaller words.

For all intents and purposes

=)

[stjobe]

Carrioncrows, on 22 September 2013 - 04:52 AM, said:

Dully noted.

It's been years since college and unless Word says "NIEN!" then the finer points of grammar escape me, in the future i shall resign myself to smaller words.

For all intents and purposes

=)

There are spell checkers for most modern browsers, however they won't catch when you type "dully" instead of "duly" like you did above (both are proper English words but mean quite different things), and they won't be bilingual so they won't catch that you meant "nein" instead of "nien"

Sorry, I won't derail your thread further - it would be a pity to have such a good thread moved because of going off-topic.

/hangs up his Grammar Gestapo coat, and relaxes with a brew. Want one?

Edited by stjobe, 22 September 2013 - 05:01 AM.

[Carrioncrows]

http://www.youtube.c...d&v=bMTxBggP5j4

Lol.

it's fine, I do learn.

Though in my defense when i did put duly, my google chrome did not like that at all. Then it stopped complaining when i added another "L", so i figured "hey, problem solved" and now it's telling me I didn't spell "google" correctly.

Now we are just going to have to wait till someone quote's that amazing post I made with that very well thought out (bad grammar and everything) post explaining why pelvis / pelvic area hitboxes need to change to get this shindig back on track.

Edited by Carrioncrows, 22 September 2013 - 06:00 AM.

[General Taskeen]

Warrax the Chaos Warrior, on 21 September 2013 - 12:53 PM, said:

Bottom-line; it will make a wider variety of chassis competitive, which means that competitive players will be able to use a wider variety of chassis. It also makes it less likely that new players will blow their cadet bonus on something they'll end up regretting because they hadn't figured out the meta yet.

Exactly. That is exactly the point of a better philosophy for designing hitboxes in this game. The arguments against usually state, "that makes Mechs the same, no point in using other mechs," or whatever is a false-positive. Dying Fast is not Fun, especially when "twisting" is supposed to spread damage. If twisting is irrevelant, then the Mech is irrelevant.

Another point brought up in this thread was the Innersphere XL Engine. PGI decided to make it so when it is in the torso, it is instant death. That may not have been the best decision for a real-time game. I believe IS XL's were in MW3, although they may have been just Clan XL's, I can't remember, but I don't recall my Mech dying from a torso hit. Although this is probably a different topic, but related to hitboxes, PGI should have simply done the following:

- Made it so when an IS XL is hit in 1 torso, speed is reduced by 25%, including torso twist speed reduced by 50% speed, more heat is produced when firing
- Losing both XL torso's locks the torso (can no longer "twist"), speed is reduced by 50%, and more heat is produced when firing

That would have made much more sense when realizing engine types in a real-time Mech game. Since we aren't rolling, and we are not playing operational battles by repairing expensive damages.

Edited by General Taskeen, 22 September 2013 - 07:20 AM.

[Volthorne]

General Taskeen, on 22 September 2013 - 07:00 AM, said:

Exactly. That is exactly the point of a better philosophy for designing hitboxes in this game. The arguments against usually state, "that makes Mechs the same, no point in using other mechs," or whatever is a false-positive. Dying Fast is not Fun, especially when "twisting" is supposed to spread damage. If twisting is irrevelant, then the Mech is irrelevant.

Another point brought up in this thread was the Innersphere XL Engine. PGI decided to make it so when it is in the torso, it is instant death. That may not have been the best decision for a real-time game. I believe IS XL's were in MW3, although they may have been just Clan XL's, I can't remember, but I don't recall my Mech dying from a torso hit. Although this is probably a different topic, but related to hitboxes, PGI should have simply done the following:

- Made it so when an IS XL is hit in 1 torso, speed is reduced by 25%, including torso twist speed reduced by 50% speed, more heat is produced when firing
- Losing both XL torso's locks the torso (can no longer "twist"), speed is reduced by 50%, and more heat is produced when firing

That would have made much more sense when realizing engine types in a real-time Mech game. Since we aren't rolling, and we are not playing operational battles by repairing expensive damages.

Sure, let me just go hack out a third of the engine in your car and let's see if its handling is reduced in any measurable form instead of being completely inoperable.

[General Taskeen]

Volthorne, on 22 September 2013 - 10:29 AM, said:

Sure, let me just go hack out a third of the engine in your car and let's see if its handling is reduced in any measurable form instead of being completely inoperable.

Imma Let You Finish™, but this This is a game™, and Not Real-Life™. Think outside real-world logic and get your head into game-logic.

Edited by General Taskeen, 22 September 2013 - 10:59 AM.

[Volthorne]

General Taskeen, on 22 September 2013 - 10:58 AM, said:

Imma Let You Finish™, but this This is a game™, and Not Real-Life™. Think outside real-world logic and get your head into game-logic.

I know This Is A Game™, but regardless of how you think an engine works (or should work), losing even 1% of it is going to cause issues SOMEWHERE. Especially if you're dealing with magnetic containment fields. Basically what you're asking for is functional engine critical hits, which operate outside of the normal torso-loss rules. Should engine critical hits be implemented? Hell yes. Should it be applied as "losing-a-torso-only-applies-one-critical-hit"? **** no, that's stupid.

Edited by Volthorne, 22 September 2013 - 01:25 PM.

[Sandpit]

I like and agree with everything (especially the restructuring of the pelvis area being reassigned as leg hit boxes) except increasing areas of the side torsos because the ct is supposed to be one of the prime areas to hit. Other than that I loved the post and ideas!

[Grrzoot]

thing i agree with right away, and no i just browsed a tad here:

pelvic, or pelvis region should be included with the legs, it is part of the leg system, and though it may be coupled to the torso, major damage there would not destroy the torso, if anything, it would lock its movement to legs (i.e. no twisting).

For the dragon though i disagree with you image on that one. Whenever i drive my dragon i feel like i am driving my old 79 Cadillac Brougham that i had way back when i liked the old boats- and yes i would pay for hood ornaments.

More to the point is that the front of the dragon is that way because it have, like the old cars, a huge engine forward of the driver compartment. So i would argue that the side hitboxes be moved back, leaving it more as it is.

[Carrioncrows]

Grrzoot, on 22 September 2013 - 04:29 PM, said:

thing i agree with right away, and no i just browsed a tad here:

pelvic, or pelvis region should be included with the legs, it is part of the leg system, and though it may be coupled to the torso, major damage there would not destroy the torso, if anything, it would lock its movement to legs (i.e. no twisting).

For the dragon though i disagree with you image on that one. Whenever i drive my dragon i feel like i am driving my old 79 Cadillac Brougham that i had way back when i liked the old boats- and yes i would pay for hood ornaments.

More to the point is that the front of the dragon is that way because it have, like the old cars, a huge engine forward of the driver compartment. So i would argue that the side hitboxes be moved back, leaving it more as it is.

The changes are less to do with aesthetics and more to do with gameplay and balancing.

But you right a hood ornament would be pretty cool. Though from what I understand PGI will be implementing ways' to customize your mechs. I.E. Different Atlas's heads you can choose from and things like that.

[Cyberassassin]

+1 to OP
Thank you for showing and explaining the value of better hit boxes.

I run a K-2 with an XL-engine (always) because I die only from CT coring.

[General Taskeen]

@Carrioncrows - It would be awesome, if you have time of course, to redraw the hitboxes for all current Mechs and put up images.

I'd like to see redrawn Blackjack hitboxes, since the CT is easily cored from the side as well - if you could put up that concept that would be great.

I sincerely hope PGI will take this thread into account if they do get around to redoing hitboxes. Compared with most issues in the game, this simply needs to happen.

Edited by General Taskeen, 25 September 2013 - 05:16 PM.

[aniviron]

This thread should be kept up at the top of its subforum. It'd go a long long way towards making this game feel a lot more like BT/Mechwarrior, and would finally silence the "Convergence is evil" crowd. I actually think the OP's CT hitboxes are just about right, maybe a touch too big even- I'd like to see everything be as hard to take down as a Centurion. The Cent is the embodiment of what this game is supposed to be about- it's not that it isn't hurt by heavy weapons fire, but unless your aim is great, you have to keep shearing off parts to open up that juicy fusion core.

Carrioncrows, on 19 September 2013 - 12:16 AM, said:

PGI is coming back to do a Mech pass.

That includes Hardpoints, looks, weapon modules (how weapons changes depending on what's in it) ect ect.

It's all very intensive, which is why they are waiting till after UI 2.0 and community warfare because their modlers and animators are tied up atm getting phoenix ready to fly. Basiclly 4 chassis done in the space of 1. Not to mention the 2 later for Saber. That's six months worth of mechs, so it frees them up to do a mech pass. So once that's complete it will buy them time to go back and do a mech pass.

But it is coming.

My hope in regards to this post is to raise their awareness on the issue of hitboxes so that while they are doing the mech pass they can go ahead and redefine the hitboxes.

In the case of the Kintaro it was a major snafu that they had to address immediately which is why it got done.

But yes the Mech Pass is coming.

I really really want to believe this, but it just seems way too 'out there' for PGI, and my gut tells me it doesn't seem like something they'd do- they've always preferred to just keep releasing content instead of fixing what's already here. Do you have a source where the devs say that a major tuning pass like this is coming?

[Carrioncrows]

aniviron, on 25 September 2013 - 11:54 PM, said:

I really really want to believe this, but it just seems way too 'out there' for PGI, and my gut tells me it doesn't seem like something they'd do- they've always preferred to just keep releasing content instead of fixing what's already here. Do you have a source where the devs say that a major tuning pass like this is coming?

Yes, there is a small snippitt in ATD where they also mention using the "repreive" to work on clan mechs as well as a mech pass, but the actual quote you are looking for is here:

Part 1
http://www.nogutsnog...36.html#msg6836

Part 2
http://www.nogutsnog...pic,1021.0.html

I don't' remember which part it was in, struck me as part 2 I think. They talk a good bit about going back to review, fix and balance mechs in a "Mech Pass"

As Soon as I am back from the Launch Event, I will work up pictures of every chassis and post them up here for everyone's benefit on the OP, on how I believe they should look.

Edited by Carrioncrows, 26 September 2013 - 02:15 AM.

[C12AZyED]

This is an ultimate fix to hitboxes that will make many useless mechw like the Awesome,Orion, Kintaro a lot more balanced. It will also reduce the need for the mech "rescaling" that PGI are so averse to performing due to the massive technical labour it would require. This isn't simply a proposal, this is the truthful answer to the array of balance/ mechanical issues we see with the game today. Bump bump bump

[VeryVizzy]

Yes please x1000

It'll take more skill to aim straight for the CT while also making mechs more durable. One of the best aspects of MWO compared to a traditional FPS is when your mech takes partial damage and you start having to factor in weakened armour points or destroyed weapons, potentially altering your strategy, rather than a lame health bar or regenerating health. (it's pretty ******* cool when you hear the robot lady go on for 10 seconds about all the destroyed heatsinks and lasers you just sustained from that badass assault yet still have backup weapons that allow you to go down in a blaze of glory!)

This would be an amazing step in the right direction.

Edited by VeryVizzy, 26 September 2013 - 04:51 AM.

[The Boz]

BTW; one question: do ALL mechs lose the arm when they lose a torso on that side?

[aniviron]

The Boz, on 26 September 2013 - 08:36 AM, said:

BTW; one question: do ALL mechs lose the arm when they lose a torso on that side?

The arm bone's connected to the.. side torso bone (and that's the way it goes ba-bum-bum).

[General Taskeen]

PGI