251 replies to this topic

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 22 September 2013 - 12:19 PM, said:

There are no serious hit registration issues. Only serious hit box issues. Some light mechs dont die because their hitboxes spread the damage around way more effectively than they should. That was the problem with the Raven before it was fixed. And its the problem with the Spider now.

The Raven's torso damage spreading was never fixed. At all. All that was "fixed" is that their leg hitboxes are now larger than their leg models. The Raven side torsos still extend along the beak like they always have.

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Also, the Spider has the lowest firepower of the light class. It had damn well better be able to last longer than the lights that get to enjoy better weaponry.

Edited by FupDup, 23 September 2013 - 04:09 AM.

[Ghogiel]

stjobe, on 23 September 2013 - 03:40 AM, said:

You can hit the debris left over from the destroyed arm.

So all you have to do is cut the shield arm off a Cent, then let it run away. then continue firing at the arm debris on the ground. You'll core it out eventually lol

Dat's some pro hax yo

[stjobe]

Ghogiel, on 23 September 2013 - 04:18 AM, said:

So all you have to do is cut the shield arm off a Cent, then let it run away. then continue firing at the arm debris on the ground. You'll core it out eventually lol

Dat's some pro hax yo

Yes, clearly that's how it works

Or, what I really meant was the debris that is still attached to the 'mech, not the part you shot off. The Centurion in particular has rather large debris left at what used to be the shoulder/upper arm. If you hit that, damage transfers to the side torso at a rate of 50% (and if that side torso is also destroyed, 50% of the damage that should have been applied to it gets applied to the CT instead - that is, 25% of the damage applied to the arm debris).

[FREDtheDEAD]

It's all subjective. Even with video evidence - which is few and far between - people can read into it (and do with all video evidence) alternative scenarios.

Nevertheless...

1) PGI still say they have to tune SRM hit detection - it's a 'kinda' known problem.

2) There are hundreds of reports in the Patch Feedback thread every month of inexplicable hit problems. It's not limited to Spiders but they are the smallest, fastest 'Mechs in the game and shortcommings of HSR and other hit detection mechanisms show up most when fighting them.

3) It may not be HSR. I've gone head to head with other 'Mechs and relatively we're not moving. And I'VE BEEN HIT visually while not registering damage. I've also had a hit that registered as Critical Damage while, for the whole game, my paper-doll registered no significant damage. So is the paper-doll lying or is hit detection completely weird?

4) PGI staff have acknowledged a while back that Ping jitter throws out HSR and, even further back, there is a problem with hit detection "deep within" the mystical deapth of CryEngine 3. They have not said that these problems have been fixed. So we don't know. They currently acknowledge hit detection issues with SRMs.

5) They acknowledge hit detection issues with SRMs, as of this patch. If there's a problem with one weapon, doesn't that mean a problem with the whole system? Surely there isn't separate code for every weapon in the game? Yes, they brought HSR online for each of the 3 main weapon groups one at a time, but they didn't bring it in for each weapon at a time.

6) Do they need to code different hit detection routines for each weapon? Absurd! If PPCs have been long reported as missing when it looked like it hit and SRM hit detection is a known problem and lots of people report problems damaging light mechs, there are problems with PGI's **HIT DETECTION** (I can't type _PGI's__hit__detection__because the forum's naughty word detector reads it as "PGI ****" detection) code with all weapons and mechs!

Edited by Xajorkith, 23 September 2013 - 04:36 AM.

[Andrew Porter]

Well, I am going to eat my words... I predicted no evidence, but it certainly seems that there is evidence to show that Spiders have a magic shield of some sort (Triordinant's linked videos, esp. the third one). I was thinking of getting into spiders, but it would feel like cheating the way things stand. Still not convinced regarding other lights though.

Bleugh, the bitter taste of my own incorrect words.

[PEEFsmash]

Triordinant, on 23 September 2013 - 03:53 AM, said:

Here you go:

http://www.twitch.tv...robot/c/2689848

These are from July. I said after the most recent patch, which still nobody has posted.

Last night with all the network issues, getting kicked from game, etc, hit registration went back to being terrible, not on lights in particular but on everything. Multiple shots on standing-still hunchbacks and victors, etc, so it looks like whatever HSR fixes they had done are no longer working perfectly because of the network.

[stjobe]

Andrew Porter, on 23 September 2013 - 04:36 AM, said:

it certainly seems that there is evidence to show that Spiders have a magic shield of some sort (Triordinant's linked videos, esp. the third one)

I wouldn't say that's a "magical shield", it seems to me that the shots hit the gap between the torso section and the legs section - a gap many 'mechs have to a greater or lesser degree.

The hit box really should be extended to cover that gap (since I assume it's there for animation reasons), much like the Raven leg hit boxes were extended beyond the physical model of the leg.

Edit: Here's a picture from the video showing the gap the shot hits:



The shots hitting other parts seem to register damage just fine.

Edited by stjobe, 23 September 2013 - 04:49 AM.

[Mehlan]

Quote

I've actually tested this in the Training Grounds, it's very easy to replicate if you want to check for yourself. Just go find a 'mech (I used the Centurion on Alpine since it was a Centurion-related thread I was posting in), aim for it's hand, making sure your line of fire points away from the torso, and once you've shot off the arm observe how your shots do not hit anything any more. The hit box does not remain after the arm is shot off.

Thanks StJobe, appreciate the info/heads up/confirmation. :-)

[Lightfoot]

I think the Light mechs move too fast for HSR to track sometimes. When this happens I start lag-shooting till I find their Lag Spot. Usually it's about one mech-length in front of them, but sometimes it is actually behind them.

[Mehlan]

Quote

These are from July. I said after the most recent patch, which still nobody has posted.

Good catchs/call, need data current to last 'patch'.. might be helpful to note/sc your ping when entering the match too.

[FREDtheDEAD]

It's not that weapons hit gaps, there is an engine problem in hit detection that's most exposed with fast moving 'Mechs. The Spider is NOT THE ONLY ONE. It's just the most reliably hard to hit because of high speed and small size. There are other engine problems causing this because it, at a lesser rate, affects other 'Mechs.

[stjobe]

Xajorkith, on 23 September 2013 - 04:54 AM, said:

It's not that weapons hit gaps, there is an engine problem in hit detection that's most exposed with fast moving 'Mechs. The Spider is NOT THE ONLY ONE. It's just the most reliably hard to hit because of high speed and small size. There are other engine problems causing this because it, at a lesser rate, affects other 'Mechs.

In the video in question, the two Spiders were stationary.

[SgtKinCaiD]

stjobe, on 23 September 2013 - 03:59 AM, said:

I take exception to that, I generally walk off the field with a couple of kills

A good player will always sort things out, even in a crappy mech

[FREDtheDEAD]

stjobe, on 23 September 2013 - 04:46 AM, said:

I wouldn't say that's a "magical shield", it seems to me that the shots hit the gap between the torso section and the legs section - a gap many 'mechs have to a greater or lesser degree.

The hit box really should be extended to cover that gap (since I assume it's there for animation reasons), much like the Raven leg hit boxes were extended beyond the physical model of the leg.

Edit: Here's a picture from the video showing the gap the shot hits:

The shots hitting other parts seem to register damage just fine.

I have to, in part, disagree. I try to shoot light mechs in the legs not the groin. Sometimes they're still and it still takes a hell of a lot of firepower to bring them down. Sometime it doesn't and they look like cardboard. Damage sometimes does not show on the enemy paper doll when it looked to me like I hit (which is the point of HSR) and other fast 'Mechs exhibit 'invulnerability disease' too. I don't have video evidence, just a lot of people complaining about the same inexplicable things nearly every day - I'm not buying "just a bad shot" completely. I don't fully believe the Spider is the problem. I've had too many weird issues with hitting other 'Mechs. Maybe there is a hitbox issue, but it's not the only issue.

[Ghogiel]

PEEFsmash, on 23 September 2013 - 04:44 AM, said:

because of the network.

I reckon that's most of where the issue occurs anyway.

[FREDtheDEAD]

stjobe, on 23 September 2013 - 04:55 AM, said:

In the video in question, the two Spiders were stationary.

In the Patch Feedback thread these past three months there have been numerous issues reported where people couldn't damage stationary targets. Sitting ducks from Spiders to Alases are reported to be invulnerable. This is why I don't believe the problem is limited to the Spider.

[Shae Starfyre]

I bet you can watch any video, and eye ball the little red circle or lack there off with shots (graphics) hitting and not hitting based on registering on ANY mech.

Just watch any of them on you-tube, and pay close attention; doesn't matter the mech.

Also, keep in mind that a lot of people aim on the trailing end of the mech to the direction the mech they are aiming at is going (never understood this phenomenon - even the first video in this thread shows this, strangest thing).

But anyways, I see it in every video and every game I spectate and play where someone has the target targeted, and they fire at it and don't perceptibly miss. You will note that some graphically noticeable hits do not register.

Plain and simple.... and I can't stress this enough (It is NOT JUST LIGHTS).

oh, and you heard this hear first (PGI's Cone of Fire Design in Action). Why change something that in essence suffices as a dumby cone of fire making lights more durable and at the same time easily discarded as an issue with heavier mechs?

Edited by Aphoticus, 23 September 2013 - 05:19 AM.

[stjobe]

Xajorkith, on 23 September 2013 - 05:12 AM, said:

In the Patch Feedback thread these past three months there have been numerous issues reported where people couldn't damage stationary targets. Sitting ducks from Spiders to Alases are reported to be invulnerable. This is why I don't believe the problem is limited to the Spider.

I'm not saying there are no hit registration issues; we all know there are, and PGI has acknowledged the fact. But this was a very specific example with video evidence, and looking at that video evidence the issue clearly is that the shots hit in the gap between the torso and legs; a gap that should really be covered by the CT hit box.

In short, the video demonstrated a hit box issue, not a HSR issue or some other issue. A hit box issue that many - if not most - 'mechs suffer from, I might add.

[theblackdeath]

Only issue I noticed while running my spider, is that sometimes when I'm running away from something the damage will register in the front torso of the mech rather than the back. But I don't have that issue on my right and left rear torsi or torso (however proper).

But I did notice that it's damn near imposible to hit the cataprach's cockpit. I don't hear people complaining about that. I can smack an Atlas all day long in that evil eye of his. But the Cataprach...good luck.

Edited by theblackdeath, 23 September 2013 - 05:22 AM.

[Shae Starfyre]

stjobe, on 23 September 2013 - 05:17 AM, said:

I'm not saying there are no hit registration issues; we all know there are, and PGI has acknowledged the fact. But this was a very specific example with video evidence, and looking at that video evidence the issue clearly is that the shots hit in the gap between the torso and legs; a gap that should really be covered by the CT hit box.

In short, the video demonstrated a hit box issue, not a HSR issue or some other issue. A hit box issue that many - if not most - 'mechs suffer from, I might add.

All my mechs Suffer!!!!! Healer! Medic!