251 replies to this topic

[Gaan Cathal]

Triordinant, on 24 September 2013 - 03:48 AM, said:

That video clearly establishes the FACT that as of July 23, the Spider has hitbox issues. It has nothing to do with HSR, speed, angle, movement, beam duration or anything else because the target is STANDING STILL. Since the FACT has been clearly established, the logical conclusion is that it continues to be true until proven otherwise.

The burden of proof is therefore on the deniers of this FACT to prove that it is no longer so. Anecdotal evidence is not enough; deniers must show video evidence that the hitbox issue has been fixed since since July 23. The only reliable way to do this is to repeat the experiment shown on the video several times and record them all to prove the hitbox issue has been fixed.

In the absence of such video evidence, the established FACT remains that the Spider has hitbox issues. We do NOT have to post any more videos to prove an established FACT. On the contrary: the deniers have to post videos that prove the Spider hitbox issue has been fixed.

Firstly, get off your high horse, it's taken days of asking for evidence for this video to float to the surface and, being as it's from several patches ago, it's not the best evidence in the world.

Secondly, that video clearly demonstrates a specific hole in the Spider hitbox that reliably fails to register hits. That means that we don't require several videos at all. Either the hole still exists, and shots into it do not register, or it doesn't and one video will show that.

Thirdly, anyone have a spider handy? I'd like to test this but my mechbay is arachnid-free.

[stjobe]

Triordinant, on 24 September 2013 - 03:48 AM, said:

That video clearly establishes the FACT that as of July 23, the Spider has hitbox issues.

Indeed. However, it doesn't prove anything other than that like most 'mechs, the Spider has a gap between the lower torso and upper legs that shots can pass through (perhaps this is the "hit registration issue" the devs had seen?)

It doesn't prove that hit detection is worse on Spiders than any other chassis, it doesn't prove that the Spider is the only 'mech with this issue, and most of all, it does not in any way explain why a moving Spider seems to take so little damage according to so many people - unless you want to go on record claiming that tiny gap is what makes all the difference?

In short, it's a good find. I really hope they adjust the Spider hitbox to cover that hole. But it doesn't prove one way or the other that this is what makes people rage so much about lights in general and Spiders in particular.

Edited by stjobe, 24 September 2013 - 04:28 AM.

[Kitane]

The new map Island Metropolis seem to have new mechs in Training Grounds. I don't remember if there is a Spider, but we should be able to test "issues" with hitzones on 8 more mechs, Training Grounds are good at least for that.

[Gaan Cathal]

stjobe, on 24 September 2013 - 04:27 AM, said:

In short, it's a good find. I really hope they adjust the Spider hitbox to cover that hole. But it doesn't prove one way or the other that this is what makes people rage so much about lights in general and Spiders in particular.

If the torso-hip junction is the source of the hit-reg errors, it does stand to reason that the Spider in particular, and other smaller mechs in general, would see a higher reporting rate, since a hole of the same size is not only proportionally bigger but, in the case of the spider, the waist is essentially centre-mass, where most people will tend to aim - especially on a stationary target. It might also explain why the problem is reported by people who's general results/play should be putting them in the third quartile or so in terms of ELO, as well as players in poor ELO tiers. At higher tiers, players will tend towards shooting light mechs in either the legs or side torsos depending on quality of aim/weaponry/personal temperament - at which point the centre-mass hitbox hole won't be an observed issue.

[Villz]

GG Close

[Amsro]

Villz, on 24 September 2013 - 06:03 AM, said:

GG Close

I've even put my spiders in storage until this whole nonsense is cleared up, I refuse to let gimped coding take away from my spider piloting prowess.

I prefer to use the derp mode worst chassis and see how well I can fare. Originally it was the spider, now the spider is OP and hit detection free!.

Cheers to DV8 and others for looking into this in depth.

[stjobe]

Villz, on 24 September 2013 - 06:03 AM, said:

GG Close

That's... A whole lot of missed shots and laser grazing. Was there anything in particular you wanted to point to?

[Gaan Cathal]

Villz, on 24 September 2013 - 06:03 AM, said:

GG Close

Interesting observation. The Medium Laser volley at ~1:00 registered as damaging on the paper doll, but doesn't trigger the reticule target damaged response. This means it's quite possible that the preceding volleys, where no paperdoll was present, may have damaged the target despite the lack of reticule response.

stjobe, on 24 September 2013 - 06:19 AM, said:

That's... A whole lot of missed shots and laser grazing. Was there anything in particular you wanted to point to?

For about 5s either side of the 1:00 mark there are some apparent hits that don't trigger the reticule turning red, however for the only one of those hits where the paperdoll is present, it does show a damage response.

Amsro, on 24 September 2013 - 06:17 AM, said:

I've even put my spiders in storage until this whole nonsense is cleared up, I refuse to let gimped coding take away from my spider piloting prowess.

Well aren't you heroic. If it salves your sense of e-honoure, the only gimped coding that video actually demonstrates is the reticule hit response is unreliable.

Edited by Gaan Cathal, 24 September 2013 - 06:25 AM.

[Scandinavian Jawbreaker]

stjobe, on 24 September 2013 - 06:19 AM, said:

That's... A whole lot of missed shots and laser grazing. Was there anything in particular you wanted to point to?

My observations from the video. At the beginning there are clearly 4 hits with 3xAC/5, 3 of them torso area. 0:36, 0:41, 0:51 are hits not registering for the AC/5 and he has to lead with the MLs. I think if that would've been a Jenner it would be dead before the end of video.

[Ghogiel]

stjobe, on 24 September 2013 - 06:19 AM, said:

That's... A whole lot of missed shots and laser grazing. Was there anything in particular you wanted to point to?

Sorry, I was already inb4 hand waving away of clear evidence.

[Gaan Cathal]

IV Amen, on 24 September 2013 - 06:44 AM, said:

My observations from the video. At the beginning there are clearly 4 hits with 3xAC/5, 3 of them torso area. 0:36, 0:41, 0:51 are hits not registering for the AC/5 and he has to lead with the MLs. I think if that would've been a Jenner it would be dead before the end of video.

Er? You can quite clearly see the AC/5 impact on the hill behind the Spider at 0:36...

[Funkadelic Mayhem]

Villz, on 24 September 2013 - 06:03 AM, said:

GG Close

he could not even keep his cross hairs on the spider most of the time. If he cant hit the spider with lasers, its lol he thinks he hit it with his ac's.

Edited by Funkadelic Mayhem, 24 September 2013 - 07:17 AM.

[Syllogy]

It has to do with hit registration in general.

It's more noticeable on lights because they are so small. I've shot mechs in one shoulder only to have the damage register on the other shoulder.

Edited by Syllogy, 24 September 2013 - 07:18 AM.

[mike29tw]

stjobe, on 24 September 2013 - 06:19 AM, said:

That's... A whole lot of missed shots and laser grazing. Was there anything in particular you wanted to point to?

0:59 The whole duration of medium lasers did zero damage on the spider

I love how everyone's like "lol you missed so many shots!!!". It doesn't matter how many shots were missed. There were clearly more than 2 incidents of shots not registering on the spider.

[D1al T0ne]

MustrumRidcully, on 24 September 2013 - 03:46 AM, said:

Now, read the thread title. Slowly. Take your time.

In case you are still not sure:

This thread is about finding video evidence that hit registration is problematic on light mechs.
Not any mech. Light Mechs.

Video Evidence has apparantly been presented of hit registration problems with mechs. Light, Medium, Heavy or Assault. Not Lights specifically.

So yeah, there are hit registration issues. They are proven. They need to be fixed.
But there are not light mech hit registration issues. These are not proven. Hence there is no basis to claim that lights are getting extra benefits from poor hit registration, they just benefit as much or little as all the other mechs.

That means hit registration is currently not a direct balance problem in terms of weight classes. (It might still be a balance problem in that it makes weapons less effective, which affects concerns like sustainable damage vs burst damage.)

EDIT:
My advice to PEEFsmash.
Since people have trouble understanding the goal of the thread, lend them a bone. Add a second spoiler tag in your OP, titled: "Evidence of non-mech-specific hit registration issues" and put the videos on that in the block. Maybe then people will get the message. If not, at least you tried as hard as you could.

I'm really and truly beginning to think English is your second language.

I absolutely was 100% careful not to say that light mechs are missing hit registration more than any other mech. I was merely pointing out that this issue cannot and will not be solved by the players and the OP knows this.

No matter what video "evidence" is presented here he will hand wave it away for one of several reasons:

"This video was made before the patch"
"This video was made after the patch when PGI was having network issues"
"This video shows a player with a high ping, not hit registration issues"
"This video doesn't show you shooting anything but light mechs, so we don't know if you were also missing hit registration on assault mechs"
"This video shows you shooting a variety of mechs and only shows hit detection issues on light mechs, but that doesn't prove anything because the other mechs miraculously registered every shot"

Yes, all mechs are currently having hit registration issues.

This is also a biased thread from someone who enjoys light mechs so much that he makes entire series of tutorial videos about them and posts them in the light mech sub forum. So he has a vested interest in protecting light mechs more than any other mech or people will believe his precious KDR has more to do with hit registration than twitchy skill.

Personally, I don't have any problems killing any kind of mech in the game; light or otherwise. I've personally seen very few hit reg issues, but then again my ping sits around 30-50 range.

I'm merely pointing out that this thread is more about the OP's eHonor than "gameplay balance issues". A fact the forum moderators realized when they moved his first D-bag attitude thread to the trash bin.

[Ghogiel]

Gaan Cathal, on 24 September 2013 - 07:07 AM, said:

Er? You can quite clearly see the AC/5 impact on the hill behind the Spider at 0:36...

yes you can see one of the arm mounted AC5 hit hill behind the spider.... and you can see the impact from the other arm mounted AC 5 impact on the spider. Convergence yo

[Mehlan]

Quote

I'm really and truly beginning to think English is your second language.

I absolutely was 100% careful not to say that light mechs are missing hit registration more than any other mech. I was merely pointing out that this issue cannot and will not be solved by the players and the OP knows this.

No matter what video "evidence" is presented here he will hand wave it away for one of several reasons:

"This video was made before the patch"
"This video was made after the patch when PGI was having network issues"
"This video shows a player with a high ping, not hit registration issues"
"This video doesn't show you shooting anything but light mechs, so we don't know if you were also missing hit registration on assault mechs"
"This video shows you shooting a variety of mechs and only shows hit detection issues on light mechs, but that doesn't prove anything because the other mechs miraculously registered every shot"

Yes, all mechs are currently having hit registration issues.

This is also a biased thread from someone who enjoys light mechs so much that he makes entire series of tutorial videos about them and posts them in the light mech sub forum. So he has a vested interest in protecting light mechs more than any other mech or people will believe his precious KDR has more to do with hit registration than twitchy skill.

Personally, I don't have any problems killing any kind of mech in the game; light or otherwise. I've personally seen very few hit reg issues, but then again my ping sits around 30-50 range.

I'm merely pointing out that this thread is more about the OP's eHonor than "gameplay balance issues". A fact the forum moderators realized when they moved his first D-bag attitude thread to the trash bin.

no it's more...as I already pointed out... as a counter to the morons that come to the forum whining about something being broken or over powered or too weak, but failing/refusing to provide supporting evidence. You seem however to be carrying a grudge and throwing a tantrum that he's getting more attention than you are.

[Vodrin Thales]

Funkadelic Mayhem, on 24 September 2013 - 07:15 AM, said:

he could not even keep his cross hairs on the spider most of the time. If he cant hit the spider with lasers, its lol he thinks he hit it with his ac's.

To me it looked more like he started to intentionally over-lead the target because firing right at it did not work.

[Gaan Cathal]

mike29tw, on 24 September 2013 - 07:23 AM, said:

0:59 The whole duration of medium lasers did zero damage on the spider

I love how everyone's like "lol you missed so many shots!!!". It doesn't matter how many shots were missed. There were clearly more than 2 incidents of shots not registering on the spider.

Or you could read the entire thread:

Gaan Cathal, on 24 September 2013 - 06:22 AM, said:

Interesting observation. The Medium Laser volley at ~1:00 registered as damaging on the paper doll, but doesn't trigger the reticule target damaged response. This means it's quite possible that the preceding volleys, where no paperdoll was present, may have damaged the target despite the lack of reticule response.

The shot you are talking about did damage the Spider. You can clearly see the centre-torso flash on the paperdoll, it's the reticule that fails to flash for some reason.

D1al T0ne, on 24 September 2013 - 07:24 AM, said:

Yes, all mechs are currently having hit registration issues.

This is also a biased thread from someone who enjoys light mechs so much that he makes entire series of tutorial videos about them and posts them in the light mech sub forum. So he has a vested interest in protecting light mechs more than any other mech or people will believe his precious KDR has more to do with hit registration than twitchy skill.

Personally, I don't have any problems killing any kind of mech in the game; light or otherwise. I've personally seen very few hit reg issues, but then again my ping sits around 30-50 range.

I'm merely pointing out that this thread is more about the OP's eHonor than "gameplay balance issues". A fact the forum moderators realized when they moved his first D-bag attitude thread to the trash bin.

But biased threads and posts from people who want their 100-ton death machines to slaughter all before them irrespective of whether or not the pilot can aim worth a damn are fine? ****.

Ghogiel, on 24 September 2013 - 07:26 AM, said:

yes you can see one of the arm mounted AC5 hit hill behind the spider.... and you can see the impact from the other arm mounted AC 5 impact on the spider. Convergence yo

So we've gone from multiple triple-AC/5 volleys hitting to one out of three? Yeah, there's no indication whatsoever that that impact isn't registered. Note that when the paperdoll is visible the Spider has already taken appreciable damage, particularly to the right (leading) arm.

[Ghogiel]

Gaan Cathal, on 24 September 2013 - 07:43 AM, said:

So we've gone from multiple triple-AC/5 volleys hitting to one out of three? Yeah, there's no indication whatsoever that that impact isn't registered. Note that when the paperdoll is visible the Spider has already taken appreciable damage, particularly to the right (leading) arm.

Yeah no. We went from a spider in that vid took several AC5 hits and not taking damage... to a spider taking several AC5 hits and not taking damage. Clearly. The shot in question is one.

You often can't hit a light mech with both arm mounted ballistics on a CTF unless it is really close, not running perpendicular, or the ground at which convergence happens is close to the light so both shells land. So unless convergance is happening ON the light usually one of the shells will missed. This goes without saying for most people.

And yes there is ZERO indication that the hit was registered by the server>As explained by Thomas, the red reticule flash happens when the server confirms the hit, if the server isn't also confirming the hit, it doesn't happen.