178 replies to this topic

[Vodrin Thales]

CYBRN4CR, on 24 September 2013 - 01:55 PM, said:

Oh yeah the Javelin. The Commando with jump jets. Has enough different variants before 3050 that aren't OP if they make the hardpoints literal. Just 2-3 missile hardpoints in the chest? With the third being 4 laser hardpoints? Yeah. Could certainly be added without affecting too much.

Then there's the Firestarter....which they'll probably release with another buff to flamers. Would certainly be a nice humanoid 35 tonner.

I wouldn't hold my breath for any Urbanmechs. Too much work needed to rip out the existing engine system just to include one mech that most people will think is bloody insane if they think the Raven X series is too slow for lights. And you can pretend to be an Urbie anyway in a Spider.

But ultimately, the devs aren't going to add any more new chassis of mechs as they want to make use of the buffer they have, which will go all the way to the end of the year. That means all you have to look forward to are the Phoenix mechs and any hero mechs of older chassis along the way.

Next year though I suppose we'll see.

They could bring in the Panther or Firestarter for a 35 ton mech. And the Valkyrie, Hermes, and Javelin would all be 30 ton options. In any case there are some decent candidates for future light mechs.

[zagibu]

The Javelin could be a missile based light mech. Some suggestions for versions:
- 2 missile hardpoints (2x6), JJ, ECM
- 2 missile hardpoints (2x4), 2 energy hardpoints, no JJ, ECM
- 2 missile hardpoints (2x6), 2 energy hardpoints, no JJ, no ECM
- 4 missile hardpoints (2x4, 2x2), JJ, no ECM
- 4 missile hardpoints (4x4), no JJ, no ECM

[PEEFsmash]

John Buford, on 24 September 2013 - 02:13 PM, said:

So PEEF while I do agree with you that there needs to be more Lights which ones are you looking for them to add? You keep shooting down things like the Locust and the Javalin and while they are not top tier they can be fun which is why I play.

You can start with making a Hero Raven or Hero Jenner.

Either one of these would be a great addition. You wouldn't put them both in the game, but you could put one or the other.

Hero Raven:
2 Energy RA
1 Energy CT
2 Energy LA.
ECM: Yes.
JJs: No.
AMS: No
All Energy HPs mounted at cockpit-level or above. The idea for this mech is that it is like a Jenner-F, but with lower maneuverability/versitility due to no JJs, but it has ECM. It lacks the ability to mount AMS, however. This mech would be at a disadvantage vs a Jenner-F because of the lower maneuverability and not having all weapons arm mounted and so wouldn't be the best "hotshot max damage" mech, but it could be a solid mech to have run with other lights due to the ECM. Having one of these with 2 other Jenners would be extremely synergetic, especially if you all want to run lasers. Switching out the 2 Missile HPs for 2 Laser HPs is just preference (not "better") which makes it a fantastic Hero mech.

Hero Jenner:
3 Energy RA
2 Energy LA
ECM: No
JJs: Yes
AMS: LT and RT
The idea behind this Jenner is that it sacrifices an Energy hardpoint for an extra AMS. This way, it can function as an anti-streak mech or as a Light support to protect the team against LRMs. It lacks the ability to run 6 ML, or 3ML+2SL of course. It would be very good against streak mechs, but inferior vs direct fire mechs or other laser lights.

Having one of these mechs in-game would be fantastic, and would provide a lift to bored, downtrodden light pilots. They both bring something unique to the game, and can fill niche roles, but do it in a way that is not any "better" than Jenner-Fs or Raven-3Ls.

Again, I'm not saying they should both be in the game, they basically do a similar thing, but having just one of them would be awesome.


The lights I really want in the game are the Flea or Locust, but with MASC. Aka, they need to spend real effort on fixing netcode and implementing a QUALITY MASC that isn't dicerolly or unusable.

Edited by PEEFsmash, 24 September 2013 - 03:00 PM.

[stjobe]

Bishop Steiner, on 24 September 2013 - 02:32 PM, said:

And that is where I disagree. Part of skill shoudl be tactics. Lights should be able to beat Heavies. Through the occasional skill imbalance, but more often then not, through superior tactics and patience.

Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree then, because while I certainly include tactics as a part of player skill, I believe very strongly that any 'mech should be able to beat any other 'mech, if piloted well enough.

Bishop Steiner, on 24 September 2013 - 02:32 PM, said:

You don't take a SEAL team highspeed sandrail into a "fair" fight with an M1A1. You set up ambushes, bring it where it's lack of mobility is a detriment, and otherwise use your light and fast assets to try to counter it's armor and firepower.

I'm sure you're aware of this, but there's a crucial problem with your analogy; real life isn't a PvP game. MWO isn't real life, it's a PvP game - Player versus Player; and as such, player skill should ultimately be the determining factor in any closely fought fight.

Bishop Steiner, on 24 September 2013 - 02:32 PM, said:

Unless it's a Medium Pilot. Then they don't get the nice protection Lights currently do, and have to use those tactics. Do GOOD light pilots use them? Sure. But there aren't THAT many good pilots in this game, period, let alone good light Pilots.

Riddle me this then; why should a light pilot need to be "good" to win a one-on-one, since that seems to imply that a heavy or assault pilot doesn't? Why do I need to be a *better* light pilot to win over an assault than another light? What factor is it you give to non-light pilots that makes light pilots need to be better than them to have an even chance?

Bishop Steiner, on 24 September 2013 - 02:32 PM, said:

But no dude. On a flat, featureless field, a Light Mech, piloted against an equal pilot in a Heavy or Assault, should not win.

And why not? It becomes a game of using your advantages better than the opponent; the light has superior speed and maneuverability, the assault has superior armour and armament - to my mind, whichever of these two manages to use his advantages better than the opponent truly deserves the win. If the light manages to avoid being hit, he can chip away at the assault until it crumbles. If the assault manages to hit the light, game over. In both cases, GG.

Bishop Steiner, on 24 September 2013 - 02:32 PM, said:

Hate to say it, but straight up combat is NOT supposed to be the role of a Light Mech

You keep saying this, but I've yet to see you come up with a good explanation as to why. Even in BattleTech, there were lights whose role was straight-up combat. Not scouting, not harassing, not spotting. Combat, and lots of it.

[aniviron]

CYBRN4CR, on 24 September 2013 - 01:55 PM, said:

Oh yeah the Javelin. The Commando with jump jets. Has enough different variants before 3050 that aren't OP if they make the hardpoints literal. Just 2-3 missile hardpoints in the chest? With the third being 4 laser hardpoints? Yeah. Could certainly be added without affecting too much.

Then there's the Firestarter....which they'll probably release with another buff to flamers. Would certainly be a nice humanoid 35 tonner.

I wouldn't hold my breath for any Urbanmechs. Too much work needed to rip out the existing engine system just to include one mech that most people will think is bloody insane if they think the Raven X series is too slow for lights. And you can pretend to be an Urbie anyway in a Spider.

But ultimately, the devs aren't going to add any more new chassis of mechs as they want to make use of the buffer they have, which will go all the way to the end of the year. That means all you have to look forward to are the Phoenix mechs and any hero mechs of older chassis along the way.

Next year though I suppose we'll see.

I really really want to see the JVN-11A:

Sarna.net said:

JVN-11A - The second version of the Javelin to carry the moniker of Fire Javelin, this upgrade of the 10F mounts seven Medium Lasers. It uses double heat sinks to counter the massive amount of heat that they can build for a light 'Mech. An additional ton of Ferro-Fibrous armor increase the overall protection for the Javelin. This design was a field refit often seen after other units had cast off their old parts.

PEEFsmash, on 24 September 2013 - 02:51 PM, said:

You can start with making a Hero Raven or Hero Jenner.

Either one of these would be a great addition. You wouldn't put them both in the game, but you could put one or the other.

Hero Raven:
2 Energy RA
1 Energy CT
2 Energy LA.
ECM: Yes.
JJs: No.
AMS: No
All Energy HPs mounted at cockpit-level or above. The idea for this mech is that it is like a Jenner-F, but with lower maneuverability/versitility due to no JJs, but it has ECM. It lacks the ability to mount AMS, however. This mech would be at a disadvantage vs a Jenner-F because of the lower maneuverability and not having all weapons arm mounted and so wouldn't be the best "hotshot max damage" mech, but it could be a solid mech to have run with other lights due to the ECM. Having one of these with 2 other Jenners would be extremely synergetic, especially if you all want to run lasers. Switching out the 2 Missile HPs for 2 Laser HPs is just preference (not "better") which makes it a fantastic Hero mech.

Hero Jenner:
3 Energy RA
2 Energy LA
ECM: No
JJs: Yes
AMS: LT and RT
The idea behind this Jenner is that it sacrifices an Energy hardpoint for an extra AMS. This way, it can function as an anti-streak mech or as a Light support to protect the team against streaks. It lacks the ability to run 6 ML, or 3ML+2SL of course. It would be very good against streak mechs, but inferior vs direct fire mechs or other laser lights.

Having one of these mechs in-game would be fantastic, and would provide a lift to bored, downtrodden light pilots. They both bring something unique to the game, and can fill niche roles, but do it in a way that is not any "better" than Jenner-Fs or Raven-3Ls.

Again, I'm not saying they should both be in the game, they basically do a similar thing, but having just one of them would be awesome.

While I like both your suggestions for heroes, I note that they both lack ballistics, because lights with ballistic HPs are worthless. My point is that I think PGI knows this too, and it is the reason they have not released any Raven or Jenner heroes- really the only niche not already filled that wouldn't make for a terrible mech would be an all-missile loadout, 3xsrm6 or somesuch. That said, as a dedicated Raven pilot, I would seriously entertain the thought of spending money on a Raven just so I had a second one that could do better than 120. Maybe with a sweet feather pattern on it too.

[Bishop Steiner]

simple. Because the Light has abilities the Heavy and Assault cannot, like oh, escapability and such.

Skill should matter. So should role. If all mechs are 100% equal in all things, then one should only pilot fast jump capable mechs, since you will be as good as any battle on the field, and able to scout, cap, run away, hit and fade.

All things the big fat guys CAN'T do effectively.

Huh. Could it be that Light Mechs are not meant to be front line battlers? But scouts, screening forces, scout hunters, etc?

This is not Solaris Dueling, so yeah, guess I don't agree, since even in the limited role application we got, there is more to the game (if played right) than slugfest.

Seen plenty of good lights out there Ninja TAGing for LRM units (really hate it when they do this to me, lol), had one especially industrious and clever ECM spider sneak behind my team and pot shot and hide, getting 3 of the idjits in my team to start shooting each other. Seen plenty of Light Pilots hunt down other lights, and or win the cap race on Conquest while the big boys slug it out (how manyAtlases can be used to flip the caps on conquest?). Lots of nice Wolfpacks flanking enemy lines to shred unsupported LRM units, etc.

All roles pretty uniquely done by them.

Heck, I'm a {Scrap} light mech pilot, but had more than one match where I took my little trollmando-2D out, and *gasp* used NARC. Because guess what? Used right, NARC doesn't suck. When I planted the NARC on the Mechs then scampered for cover while the LRM180 support lance launched on the guy (all the while I have no need to maintain LOS). We destoryed quite a few mechs that way, supplemented by some good TAGing.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 24 September 2013 - 03:04 PM.

[MavRCK]

Been talking about balancing light mechs in the tier list. They need some love - esp ECM vs non-ECM lights

[PEEFsmash]

aniviron, on 24 September 2013 - 03:01 PM, said:

I really really want to see the JVN-11A:





While I like both your suggestions for heroes, I note that they both lack ballistics, because lights with ballistic HPs are worthless. My point is that I think PGI knows this too, and it is the reason they have not released any Raven or Jenner heroes- really the only niche not already filled that wouldn't make for a terrible mech would be an all-missile loadout, 3xsrm6 or somesuch. That said, as a dedicated Raven pilot, I would seriously entertain the thought of spending money on a Raven just so I had a second one that could do better than 120. Maybe with a sweet feather pattern on it too.

I think that both of these Heroes fill a niche. The Hero Raven fills a very similar niche to the 3L, but is better for people who prefer MLs over streaks. The Hero Jenner would be a very tricky mech that, though weaker in most engagements, would be quite well-protected against other streak lights or the various Streak Mediums and Assaults out there. It might be worth taking one in a light drop for the AMS protection from LRMs/streaks as well.

Needless to say, I would buy BOTH of these in a heartbeat. My wallet would smack against my monitor before I even finished reading about them.

[MavRCK]

PEEFsmash, on 24 September 2013 - 03:06 PM, said:

I think that both of these Heroes fill a niche. The Hero Raven fills a very similar niche to the 3L, but is better for people who prefer MLs over streaks. The Hero Jenner would be a very tricky mech that, though weaker in most engagements, would be quite well-protected against other streak lights or the various Streak Mediums and Assaults out there. It might be worth taking one in a light drop for the AMS protection from LRMs/streaks as well.

Needless to say, I would buy BOTH of these in a heartbeat. My wallet would smack against my monitor before I even finished reading about them.

They're OP bro. I'd buy them too because they would be mandatory for competition.



Ps: hi from Amsterdam. Jet laggggg...

[aniviron]

PEEFsmash, on 24 September 2013 - 03:06 PM, said:

I think that both of these Heroes fill a niche. The Hero Raven fills a very similar niche to the 3L, but is better for people who prefer MLs over streaks. The Hero Jenner would be a very tricky mech that, though weaker in most engagements, would be quite well-protected against other streak lights or the various Streak Mediums and Assaults out there. It might be worth taking one in a light drop for the AMS protection from LRMs/streaks as well.

Needless to say, I would buy BOTH of these in a heartbeat. My wallet would smack against my monitor before I even finished reading about them.

I do agree that they're both filling a niche, it's just a really, really specific one. I do think the dual AMS is a great idea given how much streaks dominate light play at most skill levels, but imagine if streaks get nerfed; where does that leave the hero? Just a bad JR7-F then. Maybe give it the option to mount more JJs or something.

I would pilot the **** out of the 4mlas raven, fwiw. I want a Raven that hits like the 2x (4 mlas, 1 srm6) with ecm, and preferrably a higher speed. The 2x makes a pretty good escort/skirmisher, but with neither ecm nor a high top speed, it's still not as good at quick engagements as the 3L and the lack of ECM means my teammates are better off being escorted by the 3L, despite the lower firepower.

[PEEFsmash]

MavRCK, on 24 September 2013 - 03:14 PM, said:

They're OP bro. I'd buy them too because they would be mandatory for competition.



Ps: hi from Amsterdam. Jet laggggg...

What makes them OP? That's just silly. 5 ML on a Raven is no better than 3 ML and 2 Streaks. The Double AMS Jenner would be an occasional gimmick mech, but would never replace Jenner-Fs and Ds.

[Weebi]

WTB more lights.

[Shiro Matsumoto]

Im with you on the Lights, but you know.. Light Mechs are only entry level... the progression goes to Assaults..

[TheMadTypist]

Hmm. I think the big holdup has been the MASC issue with the flea. But hey, just 'cause catering to the speed demons would break the game doesn't mean we can't get some light up in here! I love my RVN-2x and -4x, they play like little fast mediums (in fact, I often think when I ride one out "This is what a fast medium should be like"), we could get more like that!

Firestarter. Others have suggested it, and for good reason. Lotsa energy, decent armor, jumpjets, machine guns. Machine guns actually don't completely suck right now, and all dat zappage.

Panther. Um. Not terrific, but enough people build pseudo panthers already that it might have a decent following. Slow sonofagun, though. Like, the kind of slow that makes me feel mediums are too slow. (97 kph or bust!) Maybe the smaller size would make up for it?

Wolfhound. Hard to distinguish from the jenner, but arm mounted LL might make a difference.

Urbanmech. It's like a slower, more era-correct hollander. but I'm not sure there would be any point to taking a 'mech with less armor than the average jenner and less speed than the stock atlas. It would have to have some mad-crazy offset to make it worthwhile in game, which I can't imagine unless they made it beyond tiny. Still, there's only one urbanmech, and at least then we'd be able to tell who the truly insane pilots were.

[DeafCon]

You guys get ghost shield so hush!

[Thejuggla]

Made some good points, I don't like playing lights or fighting lights but agree mostly. I dunno how mwo was "released" without the speed cap removed and promised masc and flea. The streak point also stuck out to me, usually if I'm hitting and running while playing a light mech the ssrm won't even be locked by the time I've passed but on the other end you usually have time to get a lock on the light trying to hit and run.

[Deathlike]

I'd rather have a Raven that's more interestingly built like this:

3 energy, 1 missile, 1 ballistic (2E RA, 1E LT, 1M RT, 1B LA)
or
2 energy, 2 missile, 1 ballistic (2E RA, 1M RT, 1B 1M LA)

JJs optional (might as well)

It is distinct enough and makes it interesting. Not sure what you can do though for the stock hero build... it's just a combo between 2X/3L/4X... but meh whatever.

[MavRCK]

PEEFsmash, on 24 September 2013 - 03:23 PM, said:

What makes them OP? That's just silly. 5 ML on a Raven is no better than 3 ML and 2 Streaks. The Double AMS Jenner would be an occasional gimmick mech, but would never replace Jenner-Fs and Ds.

Raven hero - ECM plus extra 2 medium laser is better focus fire than the random 2 streak srm2s. When ssrms2 always hit the ct then yes I would have agreed with you that this wasn't op.

The dual ams Jen in a grup of 3 jenners versus 3 rav3l would negate the streaks in a 3v3 dogfight.

Still love your ideas

Edited by MavRCK, 24 September 2013 - 05:00 PM.

[PEEFsmash]

MavRCK, on 24 September 2013 - 05:00 PM, said:

Raven hero - ECM plus extra 2 medium laser is better focus fire than the random 2 streak srm2s. When ssrms2 always hit the ct then yes I would have agreed with you that this wasn't op.

The dual ams Jen in a grup of 3 jenners versus 3 rav3l would negate the streaks in a 3v3 dogfight.

Still love your ideas

The first part, you are right that some people are better with the lasers and some with the streaks, but "focused damage" does not necessarally = better. 5ML is much hotter than 3+Streaks, and is inferior in many situations (light vs light fight on hot map, for example, they will get crushed by BAP+Streak+4ML Jenner-Ds).

Yes, Dual AMS Jenners would be a counter to Raven 3L packs. However, standard Jenner-Fs would be a strict hard counter to the Dual AMS Jenners because that is 2 tons wasted on each of the Dual AMS ones, and the extra energy HP is lacking for those who use it. Also, the Dual AMS Jenners would be hard countered by Jenner-Ds with standard SRMs instead of streaks. Its a rock paper scissors. Like I said, a niche is filled, but there exist good, prevalent counters. It would be all about having another option, having another mech you can take to try to see if it fits your OWN playstyle, or the playstyle of your unit.

Edited by PEEFsmash, 24 September 2013 - 05:06 PM.

[MavRCK]

PEEFsmash, on 24 September 2013 - 05:05 PM, said:

The first part, you are right that some people are better with the lasers and some with the streaks, but "focused damage" does not necessarally = better. 5ML is much hotter than 3+Streaks, and is inferior in many situations (light vs light fight on hot map, for example, they will get crushed by BAP+Streak+4ML Jenner-Ds).

Yes, Dual AMS Jenners would be a counter to Raven 3L packs. However, standard Jenner-Fs would be a strict hard counter to the Dual AMS Jenners because that is 2 tons wasted on each of the Dual AMS ones, and the extra energy HP is lacking for those who use it. Also, the Dual AMS Jenners would be hard countered by Jenner-Ds with standard SRMs instead of streaks. Its a rock paper scissors. Like I said, a niche is filled, but there exist good, prevalent counters. It would be all about having another option, having another mech you can take to try to see if it fits your OWN playstyle, or the playstyle of your unit.

Good points! Agreed - definitely good for the game. PGI needs to think like this in order to build a competitive changing meta and healthy tournament league.

Edited by MavRCK, 24 September 2013 - 05:10 PM.