82 replies to this topic

[Xmasterspy]

Can someone please explain to me how a light (Jenner) could take down an assault (Atlas)?

I want to keep the discussion around the physical difference between the mechs and the lore of the game.

Lights are "Mechs are generally used as scout 'Mechs and anti-personnel units instead of frontline combat duty, but some are designated combat 'Mechs with relatively heavy armament."

vs

Assaults are "'Mechs are the heaviest regular class of BattleMechs, weighing in between 80 and 100 tons. Some of these huge 'Mechs can mount up to 50 tons of weapons as well as very thick armor protection."

In my imagination when playing table top games, and from every description I ever read about lights, I always envisioned them quickly running around to scout and kill people on the ground. Maybe blowing up a tank or two. Never did I envision them soloing an Atlas as they can do in MWO.

I also have to point out the difference between and the weapons on the lights vs the armor on the assaults. I just don't see how machine gun bullets could possibly do enough damage to penetrate the "very thick armor protection" of an assault. I have seen videos of people shooting steel plates with guns, and the bullets just plink off with maybe a dent to the steel. Ok maybe in fantasy world the bullets are a little better, but then again the steel plate armor in fantasy would also be way better as well!

Now I understand that being a good pilot has its benefits when fighting in MWO. In fact, I feel that I had a poor game if I do less then 300 damage when running my Jenner. However, while its fun to do that much damage, I really have a hard time believing in it. I feel like its cheating the lore somehow.

On the other side of the coin, when I am running my Atlas I feel as if i should be able to ignore the little light at my feet and continue with what I am doing and let my team pick off the annoying pest. Again, this is not the case in MWO. If you do not address the light right away, he will simply core out your back with machine guns in a few hits.

I like this analogy... How many [Elementals] could I take on at once??? I can simply ignore one [Elemental] hitting me in the back and no damage done. According to the website below it would take 19 of them to take me down.

[Link Redacted]

I agree that the light warm is deadly, but not just 1 or 2 on an assault. Can't an Atlas simply step on a light and kill it? lol

I just don't get it...


for the description on mechs I used:
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/BattleMech

Edited by Niko Snow, 10 January 2014 - 10:36 AM.
While funny, the website linked crossed a border of appropriateness. Thanks for your understanding.

[Craig Steele]

Well,

In MWO the durability of mechs is significantly less than the TT and firepower is (and its application) is king.

Also, theres a kind of paper rock scissors equation to weapons in MWO and many times an Atlas will take weapons catered towards the battle line / slower targets. Thus it's effective firepower against lights (one on one) is reduced giving the light an advantage.

[Varent]

number one... ignore sarna.
Number two. Yes, This happens. Its the current state of the game. Its actually part of the rock paper scissors of the game. Lights will usually beat you when you are in an assault.

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

Aim for the legs

[LORD TSARKON]

If its a one vs one fight.... ultimately its pilot skill that will win....

I"m a really good Atlas/Stalker Pilot and even better Jenner/Raven/Spider Pilot.... so I know the ups and downs of those Mechs...

I once single handedly took out an Enemy ATlas with a Spider with a medium laser and Ac/2.... by stay behind the Atlas the entire time...

But the Atlas Pilot was brand new...and was in a non-Mastered Atlas (slow Turning,ect) and probbaly not the most efficient build,ect...

But I"ve met my fair share of even better pilots out there.... a DC ATlas with a 350 Engine fully mastered can almost turn as fast as a Spider can get behind,ect...

A smart Pilot will just knock out the easily gimped ECM module from behind on the Atlas and let his missile boat friend take care of him,ect (or counter it,ect)

I remember a year ago how powerful the Raven 3L was...... SUper ECM.... Super SSRM missiles that always hit Center Torso... 151 KPH... people would actually run away from you (medium mechs, Light Mechs,ect).... those were the days

[FupDup]

And yet most players still use heavy and assault mechs, which is because those classes are generally the best classes (particularly in large numbers).

Edited by FupDup, 08 January 2014 - 08:08 PM.

[LORD TSARKON]

FupDup, on 08 January 2014 - 08:05 PM, said:

And yet most players still use heavy and assault mechs, which is because those classes are generally the best classes (particularly in large numbers).

^^^
Very True.... Just wanted to add that Medium Mechs are still the worse (in terms of power in how this game works)...

Because of how Hit Reg works for SRMS (screwed up)... MEdium Mechs will always be the worse class of mechs..

I usually run Assault/Light/ and sometimes Heavy.... I"ve never had fun in a medium mech in this game(except ShawdowHawk)... which is too bad because in Lore they are the work horse and most prolific of the mechs (because of costs)..

[Sandpit]

If you're a lonely assault and you get a good light pilot on you, most times you're toast

[Mycrus]

Pilots of equal skill... my money is on the light in 1v1.

Lights can take out side torsos that will kill or severely limit the firepower of the slower assault.....

During the height of the pee pee Cee meta I ran lights almost exclusively and actively hunted stalkers and high landers. .. that was pre strike buff... can you imagine if we had usable strikes back then. ...

[Craig Steele]

Agreed, Mediums need a lot of love to get the best out of them but thats also part of the game mode to.

In canon, mediums had a lot more roles, heavy recon, raiding etc as Heavies were harder to produce / replace and were held for important targets, Assaults even more so.

In MWo, they are thrust into the same role as everything else and can be pulled apart by those better equipped for the role.

[DodgerH2O]

Many reasons.

The important one? Keeping a sense of balance to the game and a reason to bring lighter mechs. I suspect you understand this and that is why you posted in this subforum.

Also: Liking your own post? Did you forget you posted, see it and go "Hey, I totally agree with everything this guy is saying!" ?

[xengk]

A medium laser is a medium laser, and an AC10 is and AC10 no matter what weight the mech that is carrying it.
The only different here is pilot skill and armour.
With the amount of armour an assault mech is packing, you probably can ignore the light for a few shots before he burns you down to your internals. The light however doesn't have that luxury, a head on alpha will have them limping is not dead out right.

In the 5yo vs adult scenario, where both combatant have a loaded gun.
An adult's body might able withstand maybe 1 or 2 shots before death, but one who can aim and shot the gun accurately and also avoid getting hit, will win in the end.

[18 Inches of Hard Steel]

A good light will only be attacking with an alpha (around 20 dmg usually) at a weakened point and the running without taking damage back.
Example:
Stock atlas can take about 90 dmg to the back, players will even shift armor to the front to make this number less. Thats only three smart straffing runs from a Jenner F (30 dmg alpha)...

[derFiend]

Problem isn´t the light, the problem is that many Heavy and Assualt pilots think they could use the same tactic to get an light down then to get another mech class down!

As a light pilot, all separated heavy and assault mechs are victim, if i play with my movement, speed and if i hit some already weakened point.

[Frankdark]

The point and the example with the 5 year old kids is a bit of.

Becouse Mechs have Weapons think of the 5 year old kids have Knifes.
Ok you can carry a sword but 1 mistake and you got staped.

Thats more like.

Skill is as importand as Mech Tonnage.
Also in TT i liked do Attack Assaults form bihind.
2 Points if they turn my assault could hit them in the bag.
or they can do realy neasty things with the bag of a mech

[OneEyed Jack]

As far as getting your head around the lore, mech-level weapons are very bad-arse guns, even the small ones.

Also, the armor used on mechs is ablative. It's made up of layered plates designed to defeat anti-armor, penetrating weapons by diffusing the damage, at the cost of being able to be chipped away by smaller weapons. The idea is that nothing destroys the internals without first destroying the armor, rather than having armor that ignores small rounds but is basically useless beyond a certain level of penetration.

[Noesis]

http://www.sarna.net...tlemech#Assault

"Sarna said:

Assault 'Mechs are the heaviest regular class of BattleMechs' date=' weighing in between 80 and 100 tons. Some of these huge 'Mechs can mount up to 50 tons of weapons as well as very thick armor protection. They can project tremendous firepower, and perform best as the spearhead of frontal assaults or in defending entrenched positions. [b']The trade-off is in speed and maneuverability, as assault 'Mechs are generally very slow. As such, they often require friendly units to protect them from being outmaneuvered.[/b] Assault 'Mechs are typically used as command units, heavy assault platforms, and in fire-support roles, but due to their prohibitive costs and limited production, they actually make up only a small fraction of all BattleMechs.

MWO recognises this and as a result Assaults are better utililised as their pivotal role to take out large significant targets or installations (hence the term Assault). Pivotal suggesting that other Mechs revolve around the Assault Mech to support it as it either performs its attack or defense from more maneuverable Mechs.

This also means that Assaults have a definitive weakness against more mobile Mechs when on their own, but considering that MWO is a team based game when working in a team environment the idea of support from Mechs better designed to deal with lights or use weaponry to help them do so means there is more interplay between the roles and that the Assault isn't just a be all and end all, one Mech beats all. Yet even just 2 Assaults working together have the advantage of supporting each other from close harassment from lights as they can circumvent the circling issue with defending each other. A solo Assault imho should be taken down by the Wolf pack as a result.

Ideally a large lumbering Assault designed to take out larger targets and mitigate damage should be supporting the team at the business end of delivering its damage to the more significant targets and not chase the squirrels. Whereas any friendly lights or Mediums more identified with being able to deal with lights should help support their larger brothers in the overall tactics imho.

Tonnage restrictions hopefully will aid to reduce the number of Assaults on the field also, since at least in the more traditional understanding of BattleTech these Mechs were not as popular as the MWO drop ship demonstrates with the Medium chassis actually being the more prominently used platform.

[Alistair Winter]

Xmasterspy, on 08 January 2014 - 07:41 PM, said:

Can someone please explain to me how a light (Jenner) could take down an assault (Atlas)?

The Jenner pilot was considerably more skilled than the Atlas pilot.





It's not complicated.

Xmasterspy, on 08 January 2014 - 07:41 PM, said:

I like this analogy... How many 5 year olds could I take on at once??? I can simply ignore one 5 year old hitting me in the back and no damage done. According to the website below it would take 19 of them to take me down.

I like this analogy:

You could probably beat most women in a bar fight. But not this one:

Edited by Alistair Winter, 09 January 2014 - 03:01 AM.

[Myc]

The description of damage done by machine guns to armor is terrible. Have you ever shot machine guns at a fresh atlas? I have shot 4 MG all day at armor and done very little. They do great on internals, or adequate anyway. The only reason I ever even used machine guns is because I commited to a cicada 3C. It couldn't run fast enough with AC5s, so 4 MG and a ER PPC was the most effective build I could find. I am pretty sure better than 90% of my damage was done with the PPC.

I was a big UFC fan back in the day and I remember them having an event titled "David vs Goliath." I seem to remember the "Davids" doing quite well. Weight is not everything in any fight. Overall, weight is an advantage, but it is not without drawbacks. Assaults are slow moving and we still have no control over what map we get, so it only makes sense to have long range weapons on assaults. I hate getting stuck in Alpine with all short range weapons in anything that runs under 100.

[7R1P0D]

Honestly with how the game is now (everyone saying lasers are useless and spamming ACs and PPCs and LRMs) lights have it ridiculously easy because those weapons just aren't effective against them if they're going decently fast and are close

Even with the trial spider (ER large, 4 mg) you can average 400-500 damage a game without trying because you just never get hit. Every once in a while you run into a streak spammer and have to back off and use the ER to out range them, but besides that you're generally fine

want to stop dying to lights? stop spamming AC20s and PPCs