82 replies to this topic

[Rhaythe]

I love finding a lone atlas in my Circada. Just saying.

[derFiend]

One of the problems, the threadstarter is also talking to, is that light mechs are no real scouts in actual metagame.
Who of us play 12vs12 pre made drops knows that light THERE are fulfill this classic role model.
At the actual metagame it´s not possible, because no one is using this information.
So many many light builds are more common for close range fight then for scouting...

[Noesis]

derFiend, on 09 January 2014 - 05:26 AM, said:

One of the problems, the threadstarter is also talking to, is that light mechs are no real scouts in actual metagame.
Who of us play 12vs12 pre made drops knows that light THERE are fulfill this classic role model.
At the actual metagame it´s not possible, because no one is using this information.
So many many light builds are more common for close range fight then for scouting...

Yep totally agree that the scout role is more relevant in 12 mans where VOIP, recon and interpreted battlefield is more valuable. In less disciplined pug drops the idea of striker, flankers and light brawlers are applied due to this relevancy of information missing in this context and limited mostly to what the game supplies in its mechanics.

Combine that with skewed rewards that are more concerned with damage and kills then it is understandable why people are encouraged to play lights like they do.

Also with some e-wars tools lacking use in the meta e.g. Direct fire support bettering indirect fire support (LRMs) due to it having more confidence and less complications.

[Varent]

Noesis, on 09 January 2014 - 05:46 AM, said:

Yep totally agree that the scout role is more relevant in 12 mans where VOIP, recon and interpreted battlefield is more valuable. In less disciplined pug drops the idea of striker, flankers and light brawlers are applied due to this relevancy of information missing in this context and limited mostly to what the game supplies in its mechanics.

Combine that with skewed rewards that are more concerned with damage and kills then it is understandable why people are encouraged to play lights like they do.

Also with some e-wars tools lacking use in the meta e.g. Direct fire support bettering indirect fire support (LRMs) due to it having more confidence and less complications.

This.

Its been a major debate for a long time. Also for anyone that has not yet please take a look at this link

http://mwomercs.com/...y-needs-a-buff/

[mania3c]

find some solid object..put your back on it so light can't really hit you from behind..don't move..just twist and shoot him with your lasers..

99% of lights will just give up..or die..my own experience at least..

[Skyfaller]

In TT/BT each shot had random hit location. Thats why a Jenner even if it fired on an Atlas from behind would take forever to bring it down (aka it would not because the atlas would turn around and nuke the jenner).

In MWO you have perfect pinpoint accuracy possible. A jenner can get behind an atlas and dumb quad ML into its thin rear armor.. and maneuver to stay behind the atlas relatively easy (at close range).

That being said, a Jenner is not taking down an atlas frontally unless the Atlas driver is absolutely clueless.

[Screech]

Xmasterspy, on 08 January 2014 - 07:41 PM, said:

Can someone please explain to me how a light (Jenner) could take down an assault (Atlas)?

Shoot them in the back. When they turn right you go left, when they turn left you go right. After awhile they die. This doesn't work as well when the assault has back-up around or knows how to get his back to a wall.

[Myomes]

Xmasterspy, on 08 January 2014 - 07:41 PM, said:

Can someone please explain to me how a light (Jenner) could take down an assault (Atlas)?

I want to keep the discussion around the physical difference between the mechs and the lore of the game.

Lights are "Mechs are generally used as scout 'Mechs and anti-personnel units instead of frontline combat duty, but some are designated combat 'Mechs with relatively heavy armament."

vs

Assaults are "'Mechs are the heaviest regular class of BattleMechs, weighing in between 80 and 100 tons. Some of these huge 'Mechs can mount up to 50 tons of weapons as well as very thick armor protection."

In my imagination when playing table top games, and from every description I ever read about lights, I always envisioned them quickly running around to scout and kill people on the ground. Maybe blowing up a tank or two. Never did I envision them soloing an Atlas as they can do in MWO.

I also have to point out the difference between and the weapons on the lights vs the armor on the assaults. I just don't see how machine gun bullets could possibly do enough damage to penetrate the "very thick armor protection" of an assault. I have seen videos of people shooting steel plates with guns, and the bullets just plink off with maybe a dent to the steel. Ok maybe in fantasy world the bullets are a little better, but then again the steel plate armor in fantasy would also be way better as well!

Now I understand that being a good pilot has its benefits when fighting in MWO. In fact, I feel that I had a poor game if I do less then 300 damage when running my Jenner. However, while its fun to do that much damage, I really have a hard time believing in it. I feel like its cheating the lore somehow.

On the other side of the coin, when I am running my Atlas I feel as if i should be able to ignore the little light at my feet and continue with what I am doing and let my team pick off the annoying pest. Again, this is not the case in MWO. If you do not address the light right away, he will simply core out your back with machine guns in a few hits.

I like this analogy... How many 5 year olds could I take on at once??? I can simply ignore one 5 year old hitting me in the back and no damage done. According to the website below it would take 19 of them to take me down.

http://www.howmanyfi...keinafight.com/

I agree that the light warm is deadly, but not just 1 or 2 on an assault. Can't an Atlas simply step on a light and kill it? lol

I just don't get it...


for the description on mechs I used:
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/BattleMech

While it is rather stupid, they made a decision to make a light mech equal in power to an assault mech. Normally, you could say there's a reason to use light mechs in that they can chase down and kill weakened enemies, or shoot the back armor by getting around to there while the assault mech is distracted, but you'd never go toe to toe with an assault mech in a light.

They want speed to be king. For instance, if you take a larger weight engine, you get faster turning speed, faster torso twisting speed, and faster forward speed. Essentially, the heavier your engine, the better able you are to keep up with lights, and vice versa.

They have essentially pigeon-holed all mechs into using a very narrow range of engines to be "viable", while also ensuring that lights have far more capability than they canonically have.

They did it so that people wouldn't complain about getting blown up by fighting head-on vs assaults in light mechs, but people have done that anyway, so they nerfed the AC20.

[Myomes]

http://bg.battletech...1.320/wap2.html

This also agrees with the use (or lack of) for light mechs vs assaults in combat.

[kapusta11]

I remember a thread about how easy assaults can track and kill lights and that their turning speed/acceleration/whatever should be nerfed, I guess it shows that there is nothing fo fix there.

PS: Jenners are one of the the most feared lights by lore which is compensated by them being one of the most fragile lights in MWO (walking CT).

[KharnZor]

Varent, on 08 January 2014 - 07:53 PM, said:

number one... ignore sarna.
Number two. Yes, This happens. Its the current state of the game. Its actually part of the rock paper scissors of the game. Lights will usually beat you when you are in an assault *if you are unaware of the methods to counter them*.

Added a bit there hope you don't mind

[Fang01]

Craig Steele, on 08 January 2014 - 07:53 PM, said:

Well,

In MWO the durability of mechs is significantly less than the TT

Yeah, no.

Its the exact opposite actually. TT mechs benefit from the luck of a die roll. Weapons are far more accurate in mwo...to devastating effect.

Were this turn based you'd probably be correct in the assertion that lights wouldnt be able to fight assaults. Fought in real time, with real human brains and instincts utilizing all of a mech's abilities by skill as opposed to chance...totally different story.

[Mcgral18]

Khajja nar Jatargk, on 09 January 2014 - 12:32 PM, said:

Yeah, no.

Its the exact opposite actually. TT mechs benefit from the luck of a die roll. Weapons are far more accurate in mwo...to devastating effect.

Were this turn based you'd probably be correct in the assertion that lights wouldnt be able to fight assaults. Fought in real time, with real human brains and instincts utilizing all of a mech's abilities by skill as opposed to chance...totally different story.

Nah, things are a fair bit more fragile due to 2.5 or more times their TT firing rate, but only doubled armor. And that damage is also pinpoint, not randomized. Add in high frontloaded damage, you get dead mechs very fast.

[Varent]

KharnZor, on 09 January 2014 - 12:23 PM, said:

Added a bit there hope you don't mind

Depends on your ELO. Most assault mechs in higher elo simply dont run the tools to be able to deal with a light mech effectively taking out of the equation a lucky shot from an ac.

[Fang01]

Mcgral18, on 09 January 2014 - 12:56 PM, said:

Nah, things are a fair bit more fragile due to 2.5 or more times their TT firing rate, but only doubled armor. And that damage is also pinpoint, not randomized. Add in high frontloaded damage, you get dead mechs very fast.

Mmm hadnt considered firing rate. The original statement stands though. Mwo mechs are more durable, but FAR less survivable. Fun paradox.

[Dirty Starfish]

I feel that light weapons should just do no damage after a certain amount of armor has been applied to a section. Take a modern day assault rifle. I feel like you could shoot at an abrams for years and not pierce the armor. Same rules should apply with light machine guns and lasers being used against Atlas level armor.

[Zyllos]

This situation is solely a product of the discrepancies between the armor system and the convergence/aiming system.

In TT, geometry did not effect accuracy, only absolute movement speed.

In MWO, geometry and speed effects accuracy, and it's effected in a unique way in that speed has greater effect in accuracy as geometry shrinks.

Then the issues between distributed damage on armor in TT and the application of all damage at a given time is applied on a single point.

With these combined issues, a light mech can easily stand up against any other mech. When firing at a large target, all weapons will mainly hit the location where the player was aiming for. But when firing at a small target, generally weapons will hit multiple locations.

This also introduces the unique situation where the light mech will almost be destroyed immediately if a mech with many weapons all fires at the same time and it happens to land, as all the damage gets applied to a single location.

[Corison]

PGI has a love for lights, and you can ignore anything TT/Lore about them. In TT a light stands almost zero chance against a heavy or assault barring a headshot. Their speed isn't enough to keep them alive in close, and their (correct) role is staying at range and harassing or finishing off crippled targets. A well played light can dance at range all day if their smart but cant (and shouldn't) deal enough damage to matter. That's the job of heavies/assaults.

However as there are no real scouts in MWO.. (A scouts job is done LONG before the fight starts) PGI had to give them a role, and seems to have a real love of them. So not only do they get the bonus of small size (Making them harder to hit even at speed 0) their speed gives them a much larger bonus than expected. Add in poor hitbox detection, and your now in the state were lights are better assaults in many situations than assaults. Esp when you look at optimized builds and pinpoint aiming.

On the flip side, the poor implementation/conversion from TT also means the slower mid range weight classes are a joke. They don't have the innate survivability of a light, nor the limited armor of a heavy or assault.. and cant field the same firepower. Wow be the poor medium pilot, though fun they fall in the same role of most *********. (

[Varent]

Khajja nar Jatargk, on 09 January 2014 - 01:02 PM, said:

*has a cool signature*

I doubt many would know where that signature is from. But props on the M.D. Geist Love, a very good old japanimation.

[Fang01]

Serial Peacemaker, on 09 January 2014 - 01:06 PM, said:

I feel that light weapons should just do no damage after a certain amount of armor has been applied to a section. Take a modern day assault rifle. I feel like you could shoot at an abrams for years and not pierce the armor. Same rules should apply with light machine guns and lasers being used against Atlas level armor.

I was an abrams crewman for 5 years. A man with a rifle might not kill a tank but highly accurate fire could render it's sights and vision blocks useless. You might even get lucky as hell and achieve a mobility kill with enough of it in the right place.