82 replies to this topic

[Sarsaparilla Kid]

Running some numbers on Smurfy's with a 6ml/13DHS Jenner F build and a 6ml/AC20/17DHS Boar's Head build:

JR7-F: Tonnage 35, Armor 238, Firepower 30, Max Sustained DPS 3.0, Cooling Efficiency 40%
BH: Tonnage 100, Armor 614, Firepower 50, Max Sustained DPS 5.0, Cooling Efficiency 40%

So, with the same cooling efficiency, for the 2.86 times as many tons for the Boar's Head, you're getting about 2.58 times the additional armor but only 1.67 times the Firepower and DPS. For all that extra tonnage, you can strap on an AC20 to the torso, which can't pivot as well as the 6ml's in the arms. For some of the fight, a Boar's Head pilot might have the same firepower as the Jenner, if he's lucky to pivot far enough to catch the Jenner.

[Noesis]

Sarsaparilla Kid, on 09 January 2014 - 01:22 PM, said:

Running some numbers on Smurfy's with a 6ml/13DHS Jenner F build and a 6ml/AC20/17DHS Boar's Head build:

JR7-F: Tonnage 35, Armor 238, Firepower 30, Max Sustained DPS 3.0, Cooling Efficiency 40%
BH: Tonnage 100, Armor 614, Firepower 50, Max Sustained DPS 5.0, Cooling Efficiency 40%

So, with the same cooling efficiency, for the 2.86 times as many tons for the Boar's Head, you're getting about 2.58 times the additional armor but only 1.67 times the Firepower and DPS. For all that extra tonnage, you can strap on an AC20 to the torso, which can't pivot as well as the 6ml's in the arms. For some of the fight, a Boar's Head pilot might have the same firepower as the Jenner, if he's lucky to pivot far enough to catch the Jenner.

Doesn't take into account beam effects. The actual in game applied equivalents would mean that the ML would be applying 50% of that damage. And due to miss % for AC20 about 60%. And the damage from the MLs will be potentially spread over multiple hit boxes as opposed to the same one without the pinpoint application.

Also might be useful to compare my builds, though I actually prefer the dual large pulse to 6 ML for the boars head due to beam mechanics. But I'd only really use it for PUG fun anyhow.

Oink - AS7-BH (has better sustained DPS and heat management)

Scooter - JR7-F

Edited by Noesis, 09 January 2014 - 01:57 PM.

[Varent]

Noesis, on 09 January 2014 - 01:36 PM, said:

Doesn't take into account beam effects. The actual in game applied equivalents would mean that the ML would be applying 50% of that damage. And due to miss % for AC20 about 60%. And the damage from the MLs will be potentially spread over multiple hit boxes as opposed to the same one without the pinpoint application.

True on some accounts. But you have to up that amount since the atlas is so slow. Its actually pretty easy to get behind it and land your shots where you want them. That said... there really isnt a way to 'fix' this without breaking other mechanics of the game.

The end all be all is the atlas is a great mech. It has its strengths and its weakneses. One of its weaknesses is that it will lose to a light mech. Just accept this going into it and you will feel much better at the end of the day.

[Fang01]

Varent, on 09 January 2014 - 01:13 PM, said:

I doubt many would know where that signature is from. But props on the M.D. Geist Love, a very good old japanimation.

Thanks! I had to explain the Maddox 01 avatar i use on ts3 last night. Lol. Spawned a good convo on mecha shows though

[stjobe]

Xmasterspy, on 08 January 2014 - 07:41 PM, said:

Can someone please explain to me how a light (Jenner) could take down an assault (Atlas)?

Skill, patience, and a bit of luck.

Xmasterspy, on 08 January 2014 - 07:41 PM, said:

Never did I envision them soloing an Atlas as they can do in MWO.

"Can" being the key word. It's not like the Atlas is helpless against them. Would you rather a light had no chance at all to fight and win against a heavier opponent?

Because that would make the game 12 Atlas vs 12 Atlas in very short time.

Xmasterspy, on 08 January 2014 - 07:41 PM, said:

I just don't see how machine gun bullets could possibly do enough damage to penetrate the "very thick armor protection" of an assault.

That's because you wilfully or out of ignorance miss two very important things:
1. The BT/MWO MG isn't a hand-held 7.62, nor even a pintle-mounted .50. It's a 500kg, 20-30mm automatic monster.
2. 'Mechs have ablative armour, not steel plates. It's designed to protect the 'mechs by sloughing off, and a rapid stream of projectiles isn't half bad at just that.

Xmasterspy, on 08 January 2014 - 07:41 PM, said:

On the other side of the coin, when I am running my Atlas I feel as if i should be able to ignore the little light at my feet and continue with what I am doing and let my team pick off the annoying pest. Again, this is not the case in MWO. If you do not address the light right away, he will simply core out your back with machine guns in a few hits.

MWO is a game where each player only has control of the one 'mech. Nobody, and I mean nobody, would play lights if they weren't at least somewhat equal to heavier 'mechs.

It's okay in the TT to have lights being strictly weaker than heavier 'mechs, because there you have control over 4-12 'mechs; but here you just have the one. And having one type of unit be significantly weaker than others is a major no-no, especially in PvP games.

Xmasterspy, on 08 January 2014 - 07:41 PM, said:

I can simply ignore one 5 year old hitting me in the back and no damage done.I agree that the light warm is deadly, but not just 1 or 2 on an assault. Can't an Atlas simply step on a light and kill it?

See above. It's a game, and it has to be fun and you have to at least feel like you're contributing whether you choose to drop in a Locust or an Atlas or anything in between.

Remember, in PvP games it should be about skill, not equipment or tonnage. Equally skilled pilots should have a 50/50 chance of winning against each other no matter what they drop in.

[SniperCon]

1v1 comparisons are largely irrelevant in 12v12 battles. Lights and assaults better at different things and 1v1 only matters at the very end of a very small number of games (mistakes such as going off on your own in an Atlas notwithstanding).

[Tenpin]

Light pilot here (RVN 3L - no streaks, just plain SRM): 1 on 1 I can solo just about any heavy or assault. My speed, twist and agility are key.

Fast mediums and other lights are far more difficult to take down as they can return fire and keep me targeted much more readily.

The operative term is 1 on 1.

[Craig Steele]

Serial Peacemaker, on 09 January 2014 - 01:06 PM, said:

I feel that light weapons should just do no damage after a certain amount of armor has been applied to a section. Take a modern day assault rifle. I feel like you could shoot at an abrams for years and not pierce the armor. Same rules should apply with light machine guns and lasers being used against Atlas level armor.

I don't get why you choose that example. Light mechs are not infantry, they are a lighter version of a mech.

A better example might be to compare a Panther Tank against an Abrahams. One is significantly lighter than the other and carries a lighter primary weapon, but they are both still tanks and the primary weapons on other side will KO the other.

[Lykaon]

There are two primary forms of defense.

Absorbing damage,Taking it on the chin and dishing it back.This is what an assault mech does.

Evasion of damage, moving fast enough to be difficult to hit of using cover to evade being hit at all.This is the superior defense because successful evasion causes no damage at all.

Light mechs use evasion.


I disagree that a light mech should not pose a threat to an assault mech.To alter your analogy of the five year old some.A light mech being compitently piloted does not equate to a five year old in a fist fight with an adult.

It's more like a 5 foot 120 lbs kickboxer vs a 6'6" 290 lbs boxer. Both combatants are compitent both are trained martial artist.

The little guy will have to repeatedly strike the big guy (who has trained to take hits) while avoiding being hit a couple of times by the superior mass of the boxer (who is trained to apply his massive bulk into a forceful of a punch).


Now there are ways to to battle lights with an assault.Yoy need to understand your assault mech's advantages and understand how tomitigate the light mech's advantages.

One: learn to counter rotate a circling light mech.It's foolish to try to keep up with a circling light by following the light mech's vector.Turn opposite the light mech's direction while reversing.This will put the light mech in front of you and no longer in possition to keep circling without altering it's course.

Two: Use the terrain to your advantage.Light mechs can not just stand still and dish it out they lack the ability to soak the hits that an assault mech has.Force the fight into tight terrain narrow passes or hilly enviorments.If that light gets hung up and stops you hit it hard with all you got.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

To the OP:

1 - Even from behind a 4x MG Spider/Cicada/Locust can't core a typical Atlas just with his MGs in anything like a timely fashion. They do very little damage against armor, and it is spread all over the place. Typically they'll bring some kind of energy weapon along to help with stripping armor (ERLL, MPL, etc.), and the MGs do manage some decent damage output once they start getting critical hits on internals.

2 - No Jenner has MGs. Most Jenners carry a suite of lasers and/or SRMs, both of which are designed to punch through armor. Take a typical 6x ML JR7-F. It does in one shot half again the damage of an AC20 (6x ML at 5 damage per laser, assuming the pilot can keep the beams on your rear CT for the whole burn duration). Most Atlas builds will have their rear armor breached if they take 30 damage there.

3 - Fighting a light is surprisingly easy, if you know what you are doing. Fighting two, on the other hand, is much more difficult, and the danger they pose goes up much faster the more you increase their numbers. Against a single light, though, the Atlas ought to win every time no matter how good the light driver is. Most likely the Atlas pilot just doesn't know what to do and either ignores the light or panics, both of which will get him killed.

If you want advice on how to fight against lights when driving an assault feel free to visit the New Player or Guides & Strategies forums.

[xhrit]

My raven 3L costs 12 million C-Bills, which is a lot more then any stock Atlas.

It can kill an Atlas by using its superior technology.

[Fang01]

Also beware the light who suddenly disengages and runs straight. Very often the heavier elements of my Lance will come in after I've opened the armor and I'll rabbit to give them a steady shot. Course if you forget about me and turn to them you're boned anyway

[Varent]

Khajja nar Jatargk, on 09 January 2014 - 01:44 PM, said:

Thanks! I had to explain the Maddox 01 avatar i use on ts3 last night. Lol. Spawned a good convo on mecha shows though

actually one of my favorite animes, suppose why I felt I needed to comment on it.

[Xmasterspy]

DodgerH2O, on 08 January 2014 - 09:57 PM, said:

Many reasons.

The important one? Keeping a sense of balance to the game and a reason to bring lighter mechs. I suspect you understand this and that is why you posted in this subforum.

Also: Liking your own post? Did you forget you posted, see it and go "Hey, I totally agree with everything this guy is saying!" ?

Note sure if your trying to troll or what, but I will bite...

Your 1 of "many reason" does not anwser my question, nor does it provide an explantion. You might as well said "BECAUSE" and and left it at that.

If I understood why they moved away from the lore of the game, I wouldn't have posted.

As for me "liking my own post". I am of the mind that you need to like yourself first.

[XX Sulla XX]

Its not a problem really it just adds variety to the game. Although it is frustrating. But just think it could be worse. Spiders could carry magnetic bombs to run by and attach to your legs or back. Or single shot guided anti tank missles. Just be glad its not closer to real life haha.

[Xmasterspy]

Noesis, on 09 January 2014 - 02:53 AM, said:

Ideally a large lumbering Assault designed to take out larger targets and mitigate damage should be supporting the team at the business end of delivering its damage to the more significant targets and not chase the squirrels. Whereas any friendly lights or Mediums more identified with being able to deal with lights should help support their larger brothers in the overall tactics imho.

I totally agree. However, the issue that i have is: while the Assaults are slow and cant move very fast, should not mean that that 1 light can quickly take out an assault because its "fast.

Remember the reason the assault is so heavy is its size, armor, and weapons.

For example: In the lore\fantasy of the game I can see a light running up on powered down light and very quickly shoot through the back armor with the machine guns. Where as, I can not imagine a light running up on a powered down assault and killing it just as quick (as it would in MWO).

This is why I brought up how many 5 year olds would it take to take someone down. If just one was punching someone in the back, after some time, it would actually start to hurt and given enough time probably take them down. That would be a long time tho. Or better.. a human with a machine gun running up and shooting an powered down Atlas and winning.

Just like it should take a light a very long time to bring down an assault regardless of how good a pilot you are. The size different between the two alone should be enough to make the idea of a light killing an assault just silly.

[Mcgral18]

Xmasterspy, on 11 January 2014 - 02:27 PM, said:

I totally agree. However, the issue that i have is: while the Assaults are slow and cant move very fast, should not mean that that 1 light can quickly take out an assault because its "fast.

Remember the reason the assault is so heavy is its size, armor, and weapons.

For example: In the lore\fantasy of the game I can see a light running up on powered down light and very quickly shoot through the back armor with the machine guns. Where as, I can not imagine a light running up on a powered down assault and killing it just as quick (as it would in MWO).

This is why I brought up how many 5 year olds would it take to take someone down. If just one was punching someone in the back, after some time, it would actually start to hurt and given enough time probably take them down. That would be a long time tho. Or better.. a human with a machine gun running up and shooting an powered down Atlas and winning.

Just like it should take a light a very long time to bring down an assault regardless of how good a pilot you are. The size different between the two alone should be enough to make the idea of a light killing an assault just silly.

The thing is, both light and heavy mechs can mount the same weapons. One can just mount more. Most decent Assault pilots will easily leg a light, while a good light pilot will be able to take out a mediocre assault without much difficulty.

Also, it takes alot longer to rear core an assault than a light. Its IS alone is more than the armor+IS of the light.

[Xmasterspy]

Myomes, on 09 January 2014 - 11:44 AM, said:

While it is rather stupid, they made a decision to make a light mech equal in power to an assault mech. Normally, you could say there's a reason to use light mechs in that they can chase down and kill weakened enemies, or shoot the back armor by getting around to there while the assault mech is distracted, but you'd never go toe to toe with an assault mech in a light.

they did it so that people wouldn't complain about getting blown up by fighting head-on vs assaults in light mechs, but people have done that anyway, so they nerfed the AC20.

Great point, and I think you nailed the reason this is possible.

It was the people that did not understand the lore\fantasy of the game that wanted to run around in lights and pew pew pew. Instead of telling them "SORRY all mechs are not created equal". We get stuck with trying to believe that 25 tons can own 100 tons.

Also as other have mentioned 10000 times. They should have given lights rewards based on capping, tag, narc, and all the other scouting stuff that lights should be doing. You want to do damage, play mechs that were creadted to do damage.

I don't want to start a off topic rant here, but I am soo tired of "Game Balance". Tanks need to tank, Healers need to heal, and DPS need to DPS.. STOP trying to make everything equal to make the one ******* that wants his one TOON to do it all. Lights main task are to be sounds and thats all they should be.

[YueFei]

Xmasterspy, on 11 January 2014 - 02:48 PM, said:

Great point, and I think you nailed the reason this is possible.

It was the people that did not understand the lore\fantasy of the game that wanted to run around in lights and pew pew pew. Instead of telling them "SORRY all mechs are not created equal". We get stuck with trying to believe that 25 tons can own 100 tons.

Also as other have mentioned 10000 times. They should have given lights rewards based on capping, tag, narc, and all the other scouting stuff that lights should be doing. You want to do damage, play mechs that were creadted to do damage.

I don't want to start a off topic rant here, but I am soo tired of "Game Balance". Tanks need to tank, Healers need to heal, and DPS need to DPS.. STOP trying to make everything equal to make the one ******* that wants his one TOON to do it all. Lights main task are to be sounds and thats all they should be.

Light mech DPS is pretty low. Their durability is low. Against players with good aim, a Light mech exposed for a few seconds doesn't last very long.

A light mech can have decent burst damage with an array of lasers, but the heat makes it prohibitive to fire continuously (low sustained DPS), and the nature of lasers means that the target can reactively maneuver defensively to spread the damage.

Light mechs certainly can't "do it all". If you're upset that you're getting gang-tackled by 3 or 4 Light mechs when you are alone, that's no different from being a Light mech getting corralled and chased into the corner of the map by 3 or 4 enemy Mediums/Heavies/Assaults and squished. If you're alone and outnumbered, you're gonna lose, unless you massively outskill the opponents or they are all badly injured.

[MustrumRidcully]

Sandpit, on 08 January 2014 - 08:21 PM, said:

If you're a lonely assault and you get a good light pilot on you, most times you're toast

I don't agree unconditionally here.

I thinik in many situations, the "lonely assault" is probably already damaged, or the light is not lonely but has a partner.

I say this because I don't remember many "pure" light vs assault duels where not one of these two things was true.


I just think that lights seem so strong to assault pilots is because they feel pretty ineffective - you realize that you're barely hitting and the enemy is still nailing a lot of shots -but what you don't realize as the assault is how close you're actually getting to cripple that light and what kind of stress that pilot is under to not get nailed with a good shot from you ,and how much he's working to focus on the parts of your mech that are already damaged.