82 replies to this topic

[Xmasterspy]

I totaly disagree with this statement!!!

stjobe, on 09 January 2014 - 01:44 PM, said:

Remember, in PvP games it should be about skill, not equipment or tonnage. Equally skilled pilots should have a 50/50 chance of winning against each other no matter what they drop in.

"Game balance" has already ruined countless MMO games. Expecially this type of PVP. All mechs are not equal and should not be treated that way. If kidos can't deal with that fact that some types of characters (light mech, Healers whatever) are not as powerful as other types (assaults, dps), then they should just stick to Halo or C.O.D or whatever rehash of the same crappy first person shooter they are used to.

[Mcgral18]

Xmasterspy, on 11 January 2014 - 03:09 PM, said:

I totaly disagree with this statement!!!



"Game balance" has already ruined countless MMO games. Expecially this type of PVP. All mechs are not equal and should not be treated that way. If kidos can't deal with that fact that some types of characters (light mech, Healers whatever) are not as powerful as other types (assaults, dps), then they should just stick to Halo or C.O.D or whatever rehash of the same crappy first person shooter they are used to.

So you get to keep stomping around in an unstoppable assault death machine? Able to ignore the 6 tons of lasers being fired at you?

Some lights are designed to strike hard such as the jenner.

It might help some of the other lights if there was any actual role warfare, or weapon balance, but PGI doesn't want to give us either.

[Varent]

stjobe, on 09 January 2014 - 01:44 PM, said:

Remember, in PvP games it should be about skill, not equipment or tonnage. Equally skilled pilots should have a 50/50 chance of winning against each other no matter what they drop in.

I disagree as well. Right now this is not the case, where there is still a degree of pilot skill involved pilots have advantages and disadvantages based off of what mech they are facing in accordance with there own weapons and the other mechs weapons.

Generally speaking assaults will lose to light mechs since the tools they use arent equiped to fight them acceptably. While they may be able to get lucky with an ac round or two usually the light mech has full advantage.

That said most light mechs will lose when they come across a well played medium mech.

Just the rock/paper/scissors of MWO.

[Xmasterspy]

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 09 January 2014 - 11:46 PM, said:

To the OP:

1 - Even from behind a 4x MG Spider/Cicada/Locust can't core a typical Atlas just with his MGs in anything like a timely fashion. They do very little damage against armor, and it is spread all over the place. Typically they'll bring some kind of energy weapon along to help with stripping armor (ERLL, MPL, etc.), and the MGs do manage some decent damage output once they start getting critical hits on internals.

2 - No Jenner has MGs. Most Jenners carry a suite of lasers and/or SRMs, both of which are designed to punch through armor. Take a typical 6x ML JR7-F. It does in one shot half again the damage of an AC20 (6x ML at 5 damage per laser, assuming the pilot can keep the beams on your rear CT for the whole burn duration). Most Atlas builds will have their rear armor breached if they take 30 damage there.

3 - Fighting a light is surprisingly easy, if you know what you are doing. Fighting two, on the other hand, is much more difficult, and the danger they pose goes up much faster the more you increase their numbers. Against a single light, though, the Atlas ought to win every time no matter how good the light driver is. Most likely the Atlas pilot just doesn't know what to do and either ignores the light or panics, both of which will get him killed.

If you want advice on how to fight against lights when driving an assault feel free to visit the New Player or Guides & Strategies forums.

My fault... I used a Jenner as an example of a light because that is the mech that I routinely do 300+ damage in. Please replace my "Jenner" with ALL of the other light mechs that DO have machine guns when reading my post.

I have never said anything about me having a hard time fighting a light. Thanks for telling me about the new players guide. I read that about a year ago. You're so witty!

and... Are you and I even playing the same game??? I see countless assaults get left behind only for a single Spider to come in and take them out. If the spider does not actually kill them they will leave the assault servery damaged in the rear.

But lets ignore what I said about machine guns. I will gladly put down $100 bet. I bet I will repeatably kill you when you are running your best assault when I run my little ol 35ton Jenner. Then after I take your $100 you can make some more smart a$$ comments about reading the new players guild and then you can try and tell me again how 35t killing a 100t all fits into the lore of the game.

[Varent]

Mcgral18, on 11 January 2014 - 03:13 PM, said:

It might help some of the other lights if there was any actual role warfare, or weapon balance, but PGI doesn't want to give us either.

This. That said this actually does exist in 12 man drops. However not in pugs usually.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Xmasterspy, on 11 January 2014 - 03:38 PM, said:

My fault... I used a Jenner as an example of a light because that is the mech that I routinely do 300+ damage in. Please replace my "Jenner" with ALL of the other light mechs that DO have machine guns when reading my post.

I have never said anything about me having a hard time fighting a light. Thanks for telling me about the new players guide. I read that about a year ago. You're so witty!

and... Are you and I even playing the same game??? I see countless assaults get left behind only for a single Spider to come in and take them out. If the spider does not actually kill them they will leave the assault servery damaged in the rear.

But lets ignore what I said about machine guns. I will gladly put down $100 bet. I bet I will repeatably kill you when you are running your best assault when I run my little ol 35ton Jenner. Then after I take your $100 you can make some more smart a$$ comments about reading the new players guild and then you can try and tell me again how 35t killing a 100t all fits into the lore of the game.

Well, I guess trying to take you seriously and be helpful is not the purpose of this thread. Noted.

I also must assume that you play against people who don't know basic things like how to reverse throttle, turn off 3PV, and remove arm lock.

I know there are plenty of assault drivers out there who haven't a clue about how to go 1v1 against a light, but there are also plenty of them who are quite proficient at it. The fact that you apparently haven't run into any of them could be taken as suggestive...

Edited by Levi Porphyrogenitus, 11 January 2014 - 04:12 PM.

[lsp]

Jenner F, that's how.

[Arahantius]

Xmasterspy, on 08 January 2014 - 07:41 PM, said:

I just don't see how machine gun bullets could possibly do enough damage to penetrate the "very thick armor protection" of an assault. I have seen videos of people shooting steel plates with guns, and the bullets just plink off with maybe a dent to the steel.

http://youtu.be/ZFjGbOyd2ek

If this doesn't give better information about anti-tank machine guns, google anti-tank machine gun. I have seen classified info on other machine guns because my brother is a reseacher for the defence force. The machine guns you are thinking of a probably Uzi's or something smilarly tiny.

Edited by Arahantius, 11 January 2014 - 04:35 PM.

[Sephlock]

Xmasterspy, on 08 January 2014 - 07:41 PM, said:

Can someone please explain to me how a light (Jenner) could take down an assault (Atlas)?

I want to keep the discussion around the physical difference between the mechs and the lore of the game.

Just read any of the Inner Sphere based Battletech novels. Just about every one has the hero using some lights and maybe a few mediums to take on vast arrays of heavier mechs.

Alternatively:


You've got to stay mobile.

[Nryrony]

A duel (as in 100% vs 100% armor) between two mechs usually is a very rare thing.

Depending on the mechs/equipment and the environment and mostly the pilot skills chances are roughly even. On the matter of Assaults vs Lights I would see the assault in a slight advantage actually. Since a light only has to screw up once to be toast, while an assault has more space for human errors.

However, from a technical / physical view, consider that every single mech weapon is extremly powerful. Even a small laser will vaporize a human and a machine gun isn't a simple machigun, its either an arry of guns or a high calliber gun.

Aside from that, in MWO most lights don't even use small laser or machine gus, they use medium/large lasers, ppcs and/or streaks.

When the op mentions stepping onto lights, it forces me to think of elementals ripping assaultmechs apart with ease or decent death from above jj action.

In MWO it depends on the mech you pilot, its equipment and pilot skill.

You could chose to equip your assault with weapons that can deal easier with lights, like streaks. My Atlas DDC for example is equiped with 2 ERLL, 2 UAC5 and 3 Streaks.

Depending on the (assault)mech you will have more or less trouble fighting lights. An Atals for example is doing very well vs lights, mostly due to his arms, heavy armor and ° he can turn. A Stalker has a harder time, since he lacks "mobility" in this way, however if he covers his back, he is virtually untouchable.

If you lose your backside by just a couple of mg bulltes, may be its time to shift some armor back - from your front side to your backside. Also beeing in a group and covering each other is key if you can't deal with lights on your own.

If you get stomped by a pack of ligts, you are supposed to die. Same thing happens when a pack of jagers focuses you...


And I totally disagree with your statment.

Xmasterspy, on 11 January 2014 - 03:09 PM, said:

I totaly disagree with this statement!!!



"Game balance" has already ruined countless MMO games. Expecially this type of PVP. All mechs are not equal and should not be treated that way. If kidos can't deal with that fact that some types of characters (light mech, Healers whatever) are not as powerful as other types (assaults, dps), then they should just stick to Halo or C.O.D or whatever rehash of the same crappy first person shooter they are used to.

Rock Paper Sizzers + Playerskill/Teamwork, thats the way a PVP game should work. (unless ofc every one is completly equal)

Edited by Nryrony, 17 January 2014 - 11:29 AM.

[Rac]

I'm finding that in between 30 - 45% of mechs landing in a battle are light mechs. Especially spiders. I don't know about you, but when I spend 30 dollars on an assault mech and a little spider parks up my *** and there is nothing I can do about it, it starts to **** me off.

It doesn't take "Skill"to get in an assault mechs blind spot and stay there, so for those of you saying it does, you're whacked.

Light mechs with their hit box issues, basic immunity to most weapons, it's just silly. and it's quickly becoming tedious and not fun.

[Mawai]

Well ... to start with this isn't tabletop. If it was, no one would want to play light mechs since although they were somewhat harder to hit they also had far less armor and weapons. In terms of balance it would take several light mechs to take out an assault mech.

MWO shifts the balance so that lights can be particularly hard to hit and are very maneuverable which allows them to engage an assault mech. However, against a reasonable assault mech pilot the light mech will still usually lose since it is often relying to some extent on luck and poor aim to avoid taking significant damage.

On the other hand a swarm of 2 or 3 lights is typically more than a match for an assault.

[Adiuvo]

God this thread is ridiculous. Any competent assault pilot can beat a light 1v1. You only have to hit the stupid thing 3, maybe 4 times with an AC20. Maybe if you're trying to use only AC2s it's a bit of a problem...

I'd check your own skill before anything else. If you're having problems with run of the hill light mechs in pub games, where they are often terrible and run in straight lines, PEBKAC.

[Vox Scorpus]

The OP talked about lights vs assaults in Classic Battletech. In that game as long as a target was in your weapons firing arc you had a chance to hit it. MWO doesn't have arcs it has aimpoints or crosshairs. No arc - this makes it that much harder to hit a mech moving fast. Imagine if your twist speed was 5X faster than right now. Can you hit that light easier now? You bet. You can keep your crosshairs on it as it moves past you much easier. That's like having firing arcs! MWO has the mechs not twisting and turning fast enough. Never in all the years of playing TT did a light beat a heavy or assault unless it was near the end of the battle where the heavy or assault was damaged (except DFA - that would be cool in MWO huh).
There is a definite discrepancy where lights are concerned.

[Arahantius]

Vox Scorpus, on 17 January 2014 - 11:08 PM, said:

The OP talked about lights vs assaults in Classic Battletech. In that game as long as a target was in your weapons firing arc you had a chance to hit it. MWO doesn't have arcs it has aimpoints or crosshairs. No arc - this makes it that much harder to hit a mech moving fast. Imagine if your twist speed was 5X faster than right now. Can you hit that light easier now? You bet. You can keep your crosshairs on it as it moves past you much easier. That's like having firing arcs! MWO has the mechs not twisting and turning fast enough. Never in all the years of playing TT did a light beat a heavy or assault unless it was near the end of the battle where the heavy or assault was damaged (except DFA - that would be cool in MWO huh).
There is a definite discrepancy where lights are concerned.

I suggest checking the number of people who have defeated an assault mech with a light mech in the pen and paper game. I have done it, so have many others. If this is the point of the discussion, the point is moot. Use tactics in battletech pnp and a light can destroy an assault. Plus, as someone else has pointed out, the hero's in some of the novels used lights to defeat assaults.

[YueFei]

Vox Scorpus, on 17 January 2014 - 11:08 PM, said:

The OP talked about lights vs assaults in Classic Battletech. In that game as long as a target was in your weapons firing arc you had a chance to hit it. MWO doesn't have arcs it has aimpoints or crosshairs. No arc - this makes it that much harder to hit a mech moving fast. Imagine if your twist speed was 5X faster than right now. Can you hit that light easier now? You bet. You can keep your crosshairs on it as it moves past you much easier. That's like having firing arcs! MWO has the mechs not twisting and turning fast enough. Never in all the years of playing TT did a light beat a heavy or assault unless it was near the end of the battle where the heavy or assault was damaged (except DFA - that would be cool in MWO huh).
There is a definite discrepancy where lights are concerned.

Someone else on this forum already did the math and an Atlas with STD350 can turn+twist fast enough to track a Light mech at 50 meters. IIRC this is before any pilot efficiencies.

On a very very close pass, the LOS rate will go way up, beyond the ability of an Assault mech to track, but it isn't maintained indefinitely, only for a fraction of a second, since a Light mech's turn radius at high speed is pretty large. Once he blows past on the merge he'll be out in space and that's where you can get him in your sights again. Counter-steering also helps, it turns the fight from a 2 circle-flow where turn rate dominates to a 1 circle-flow where turn radius dominates. See wikipedia on basic fighter maneuvers.

Edited by YueFei, 17 January 2014 - 11:24 PM.

[Nryrony]

Rac, on 17 January 2014 - 07:34 PM, said:

I don't know about you, but when I spend 30 dollars on an assault mech and a little spider parks up my *** and there is nothing I can do about it, it starts to **** me off.

Just what i thought.... thanks for confirming it.................(Money < Skill)

Edited by Nryrony, 18 January 2014 - 01:29 AM.

[stjobe]

Rac, on 17 January 2014 - 07:34 PM, said:

I don't know about you, but when I spend 30 dollars on an assault mech and a little spider parks up my *** and there is nothing I can do about it, it starts to **** me off.

So you're saying that your $30 should make you win automatically? Thankfully the devs don't share your enthusiasm for the P2W model.

Rac, on 17 January 2014 - 07:34 PM, said:

It doesn't take "Skill"to get in an assault mechs blind spot and stay there, so for those of you saying it does, you're whacked.

It does take skill, same as it takes skill for the assault to sweep his reticule over the light and flex his index finger at the right time to put the AC/20 through the leg of the light. Different skills, is all.

Rac, on 17 January 2014 - 07:34 PM, said:

Light mechs with their hit box issues, basic immunity to most weapons, it's just silly. and it's quickly becoming tedious and not fun.

Suggestion: Why don't you grab a light and enjoy all our great benefits, easy wins against assaults and "immunity" to damage. Should be easy XP/CB, right?

If you'd ever dropped a single match in a Light you wouldn't be singing that boring old "I'm an assault pilot and Lights should die when I come close, because I'm bigger than them" song.

Vox Scorpus, on 17 January 2014 - 11:08 PM, said:

MWO has the mechs not twisting and turning fast enough.

Actually, MWO has the 'mechs twisting and turning WAY too fast: http://mwomercs.com/...-class-balance/

Vox Scorpus, on 17 January 2014 - 11:08 PM, said:

Never in all the years of playing TT did a light beat a heavy or assault unless it was near the end of the battle where the heavy or assault was damaged (except DFA - that would be cool in MWO huh).
There is a definite discrepancy where lights are concerned.

That's quite the bold statement - and it is not true. A light could beat an assault by using proper tactics (basic rule: you lose initiative, you make sure their to-hit roll is as high as possible, usually by jumping/running as many hexes as you can; you win initiative, you position yourself on their six and blast away. Eventually you'll wear them down).

Edited by stjobe, 18 January 2014 - 05:07 AM.

[Wispsy]

Varent, on 11 January 2014 - 03:17 PM, said:

I disagree as well. Right now this is not the case, where there is still a degree of pilot skill involved pilots have advantages and disadvantages based off of what mech they are facing in accordance with there own weapons and the other mechs weapons.

Generally speaking assaults will lose to light mechs since the tools they use arent equiped to fight them acceptably. While they may be able to get lucky with an ac round or two usually the light mech has full advantage.

That said most light mechs will lose when they come across a well played medium mech.

Just the rock/paper/scissors of MWO.

Lolno. Do you have any idea how many light mechs you saw in high Elo games before they basically removed Elo? None...Any you did see died before they were able to do anything useful. I mean I run ppc/gauss on my cataphract (which is the main mech I used in high Elo games, as running a light was suicide and winning next to impossible). Even if they manage to get me alone (I cannot see why I would be alone but well sometimes I do get a tad eager) and manage to stay within 90m (which can be challenging as I have more jjs then almost every competitive light build and am perfectly capable of using them and the terrain to my advantage) then I can simply kill them with the gauss before they can kill me or even do any real damage to me, hell I only need to look at them for a fraction of a second to obliterate their leg whilst they have to run around staring at me to have a chance of getting anything out of their lasers...and that is on a mech that is all about weapons with paper thin armour with the majority of its weapons being unusable...If I see a light mech in my Victor, well I can either ignore it or break it, depends on if there is anything else interesting to do or how offended I feel that he showed his face to me thinking he had any chance of surviving to cover/my back(which is totally impossible to reach for a light because well Victorpower).
I even used to use the DDC as an LRM boat and a single large pulse laser on one arm was enough to deter any pair of lights due to the amount of armour I had and the amount of damage a large pulse does to lights. There has been no rock>paper>scissors>rock for a long time now, it is simply an arms race and people want it to be worse. No wonder Clans people want the Clans so badly.

[Vox Scorpus]

Stjobe - I'm not sure what rules TT you were using but when a light mech jumps/runs to reach the six of a larger mech it's heat level goes pretty high. Does it shoot everything and risk retaining heat until next round? Of course it does - it needs to do the maximum damage it can. This will cause heat problems in the following rounds. When it becomes the assaults turn it will rotate in place (3 MV points or 2 and a twist) then the light is in it's fwd firing arc. Now do you fire at the light? well that depends. You see MWO is missing a huge component of TT that we used a lot. Physical attacks. If the light is close enough - you reach out and bash it in the legs or the arms etc. Sometimes this is actually more effective than shooting. Kick a light in the legs with an assault and you'll do a lot of damage.

You cannot tell me that light mechs play the same as TT. They are quite a bit stronger in MWO and if in a wolf pack they can dominate the battlefield in a way not possible before. I'm not saying that's a bad thing - I run a jenner and a spider myself. In the forums lots of players complain the game isn't balanced. Mostly weapons complaints but other things as well. The post about torso twist speeds keeping up with fast running lights isn't totally accurate. The atlas wasn't moving at the time of tracking the light. In this game movement isn't an option - it's a lifesaver. A light mech could have several passes against an assault before it can even get the light into it's crosshairs. This is rare in TT. That is my point and it changes the game balance a bit.