123 replies to this topic

[Appogee]

RandomLurker, on 29 September 2013 - 10:18 AM, said:

The accuracy from unlocked arm weapons is supreme.

I don't understand this point of view.

My arms are locked, my torso twists, and my shots from both arms and torsii weapons all land on the cross hairs. How would unlocking the arms increase accuracy at all?

Note: On rare occasions I will use shift to temporarily unlock the arms to enable me to shoot higher or lower or wider. In those circumstances, sure, unlocked arms enable me to hit a target outside of my usual firing arc.

But you seem to imply that unlocked arms make you more accurate in general (?)

If anything, when I am spectating, I see people with perpetually unlocked arms spraying their shots all around, because their arms weapons and torsii weapons take different times to arrive at the same aim point.

Edited by Appogee, 05 October 2013 - 12:46 PM.

[ArchSight]

I like this thread.

The two different arms offer advantages that fit different fighting styles.

High mounted arms are good for shooting over cover without exposing the entire mech but they loose the wider firing arc from the lower arm actuators and they don't take up a large amount of space on a mech's left or right torso which means they don't get in the way of incoming fire as often like lower mounted arms do.

High mounted arms benefit hill humping by allowing them to use cover more often where ever it may be on the map.

Lower mounted arms with the wider firing arc from the lower actuators allow mechs to shoot at targets while not directly facing them. These lower mounted arms can take up a large portion of a mechs left or right side torso's which means they get in the way of incoming fire more often than high mounted arms.

Lower mounted arms benefit Brawlers by allowing them to force incoming fire into their arms while still being able to shoot back.

Both arm types are equally good at shooting around cover without exposing the entire mech (like corners of buildings and sides of hills) but each arm type will only have one arm that can stick out far enough to shoot around cover without fully exposing the mech.

I believe it's reliant on whether players like brawling or hill humping.

Edited by ArchSight, 05 October 2013 - 02:18 PM.

[Wolf Clearwater]

Appogee, on 05 October 2013 - 12:45 PM, said:

I don't understand this point of view.

My arms are locked, my torso twists, and my shots from both arms and torsii weapons all land on the cross hairs. How would unlocking the arms increase accuracy at all?

Note: On rare occasions I will use shift to temporarily unlock the arms to enable me to shoot higher or lower or wider. In those circumstances, sure, unlocked arms enable me to hit a target outside of my usual firing arc.

But you seem to imply that unlocked arms make you more accurate in general (?)

If anything, when I am spectating, I see people with perpetually unlocked arms spraying their shots all around, because their arms weapons and torsii weapons take different times to arrive at the same aim point.

Running with articulated arms and no arm lock requires a different set of skills. This skill set requires you to constantly think and evaluate two crosshairs, as well as what weapons are grouped, and changes playstyle. The value of articulated arms increases with skill in multiple targeting. I frequently, accurately, shoot multiple mechs - one with arm weapons, one with torso weapons. Personally, I cannot understand how one can use or even stand arm lock. I think that this ability is one of the best defining characteristics that separates MWO from other FPS games.

edit: spelling

Edited by Wolf87535, 06 October 2013 - 08:23 AM.

[Appogee]

Wolf87535, on 06 October 2013 - 08:11 AM, said:

Personally, I cannot understand how one can use or even stand arm lock. I think that this ability is one of the best defining characteristics that separates MWO from other FPS games.

Unique skills are nice (I have the skill of playing MWO while eating salted cashews) but what I'm really interested in is whether there's any competitive advantage to having that skill (sadly, not the case with cashews ).

If I understood your post correctly, you believe you are gaining a competitive advantage by being able to point your torso crosshairs at one target, and your arm crosshairs at another, and shoot at both simultaneously.

I'm not sure I see that as being a competitive advantage, though, for the following reasons:

i) In most circumstances, I want to focus all my available weapons and damage on a specific Mech, and a specific location on that Mech. I want to either destroy or disable one Mech, before tackling the next Mech... not do half damage to two different Mechs simultaneously, which would give them both twice the time to shoot back.

ii) In spectating on players with unlocked arms, I regularly see them spraying their damage around on a targeted Mech, because their torso and arm cross hairs are not lined up with each other. So, unlocked arms seem to be a disadvantage a lot of the time.

iii) When I need my arms to fire outside my usual firing arc, I can hold shift and unlock them on demand. But that is a ''once a match'' kind of occurrence, so I'm better off leaving them default locked for most of the match.

Or am I misunderstanding something...?

Edited by Appogee, 06 October 2013 - 09:15 AM.

[Mr 144]

And to expound on Appogee's comments...with the majority of heavy and assault mechs having abysamly poor arm sway...we're talking 10-20 degress here at worst, the increased range is not worth the overhead in most cases. Couple that with the fact that even on gimpy arm chassis, hardpoints usually do not support any relevant gain from unlocked use under normal circumstances. I did a full breakdown of just how gimped arms have become Here.

[Wolf Clearwater]

I feel that you are missing a little something (or maybe just a completely different playing style), IMHO:
1. Arm articulation gives a distinct advantage from the extra attack angle, which is good in high speed brawlers. Most of what I play falls into that catagory, lights, fast mediums etc.
2. The ability to on the fly add damage to what a team mate is doing without changing direction is a huge benefit (especially in a light mech).
3. You can quickly respond to fire at another mech that perhaps you did not originally see.
4. Hitting multiple mechs at the same time can cause confusion - rare, but it happens. I have seen someone TK because they thought their teammate shot them instead of the light that ran through (that commando has a PPC!?).

I am sure I am in the minority, but I really hate giving up arm articulation. I feel that many mechs do not have adequate torso twist range, or have too slow of torso twisting speeds (or both). The arm actuation + minor torso twisting is much faster, and more effective. Personally, I do much worse in a match with arm lock on. As has been repeatedly said, the situation can make a huge difference either way, but I prefer mechs with arm articulation by far.

[RandomLurker]

Appogee, on 05 October 2013 - 12:45 PM, said:

I don't understand this point of view.

My arms are locked, my torso twists, and my shots from both arms and torsii weapons all land on the cross hairs. How would unlocking the arms increase accuracy at all?

Point 1, is the increased firing angle. The value of this is situational, but still worthwhile.

Point 2, is the VASTLY increased targeting speed. Putting lasers in your arms, for example, makes tracking light mechs in motion trivial even at close range. With practice, you can also hit light mechs that are knee-hugging and too low to target with torso weapons. Also, it makes it easier to track a target without having to turn your whole mech, which decreases the large jerks and bounces from the keyboard-controlled turning (does not apply to those who use a left hand joystick).

If you want to test these out, circle around a target mech in the testing grounds at full speed with and without arm lock. With a bit of practice, you should start to see how much easier it is to stay on target.

Appogee, on 06 October 2013 - 09:12 AM, said:

Or am I misunderstanding something...?

You can't fire on separate targets with arm lock off. The torso twists to follow the arms. The advantage is the very high speed that arms track, and the increased firing angles.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

High arm placement, without doubt

[MustrumRidcully]

RandomLurker, on 06 October 2013 - 11:17 AM, said:

You can't fire on separate targets with arm lock off. The torso twists to follow the arms. The advantage is the very high speed that arms track, and the increased firing angles.

Why spread your damage like that in the first place? Wouldn't it be better to bring all your guns into position and focus your fire on one guy?

Simplified:
2 half damaged enemies means the firepower of two enemies against you.
1 dead and one undamaged enemy means the firepower of one enemy against you.

Now, the above might be too simply if "half damaged" enemieswould also deal "half damage", but they generally don't. If you go for the CT kill (which tends to be the most efficient way to defeat an enemy, even if you consider the extra damage he can deal to you because you don't first focus on disarming him), half damaged enemy definitely means full firepower against you.

The benefits of articulated arms I think are pretty clear. Yes, you can track enemies faster and further. But is this an advantage better than being able to shoot over obstacles, so much better even that coordinating the 2 crosshairs and the 2 crit slots (one in each arm) are worth the price?

[Wolf Clearwater]

MustrumRidcully, on 06 October 2013 - 12:19 PM, said:

Why spread your damage like that in the first place? Wouldn't it be better to bring all your guns into position and focus your fire on one guy?

Simplified:
2 half damaged enemies means the firepower of two enemies against you.
1 dead and one undamaged enemy means the firepower of one enemy against you.

Or two dead enemies because you split your fire and target critical locations. Again it all depends on circumstance. Just because your arms can move independently does not mean you have to fire at different targets. But I at least have the option if I want it.

[RandomLurker]

MustrumRidcully, on 06 October 2013 - 12:19 PM, said:

RandomLurker, on 06 October 2013 - 11:17 AM, said:

You can't fire on separate targets with arm lock off. The torso twists to follow the arms. The advantage is the very high speed that arms track, and the increased firing angles.

Why spread your damage like that in the first place? Wouldn't it be better to bring all your guns into position and focus your fire on one guy?

Reading comprehension fail.

[Nryrony]

In a nutshell:

high positioning = good for cover battles -> ranged battles.

articulated arms = very good for following movement -> killing lights or compensate for a low torso twist rate.

[YueFei]

I run with arms unlocked so I can torso twist faster, and twitch my arms around faster if I'm trying to use them to block shots. But I will often hold SHIFT and manually lock arms when I take a shot with all weapons (torso + arm weapons). And once in a while I will use free-look to fire with arm weapons while shielding a damaged side torso.

I imagine if I fought a clone of my Hunchback-4SP that had high-mounted arms instead, if I could get close into a brawl with him, the Hunchback with articulated arms would win more often, by being able to protect side torsos and make cross-body shots with free-look.

[Truesight]

High mounted arms for 1 very simple reason.

The top of obstacles is almost never in the way, whilst anyone who has tried to shoot around a building will almost certainly hit this building (there is a bit convergence in there as well). So in close quarters combat, if you use buildings/terrain, there is no setback in using high arms.

[Duncan Jr Fischer]

Articulated better suit to brawlers, but having high mounted arms lets you freely mount AC20, the ultimate brawling instrument, and can also be good in close combat. In Table Top Battletech not articulated arms have an additional benefit - they can flip backwards and mech can shoot in the rear arc. Since PGI does not want to give us rear view, flipping arms is impossible in MWO.

Anyway, the answer depends on your preferred play style.

[Rushin Roulette]

Appogee, on 06 October 2013 - 09:12 AM, said:

If I understood your post correctly, you believe you are gaining a competitive advantage by being able to point your torso crosshairs at one target, and your arm crosshairs at another, and shoot at both simultaneously.

I'm not sure I see that as being a competitive advantage, though, for the following reasons:

There is deffinitely a competitive advantage for seperate reticules and separate targeting. Again it is highly dependant on what build you are running.

An Example of how 2 seperate reticules are needed. You are running a LRM Mech with lasers in the amrs (Hunchback 4SP for example). You can continue launching LRMs at your prime target while fighting off circling lights. You cant target the lights of course, so you dont knwo which parts are the most vulnerable, but you are still able to help out your team by sustained covering fire.

[MustrumRidcully]

Rushin Roulette, on 07 October 2013 - 12:02 AM, said:

There is deffinitely a competitive advantage for seperate reticules and separate targeting. Again it is highly dependant on what build you are running.

An Example of how 2 seperate reticules are needed. You are running a LRM Mech with lasers in the amrs (Hunchback 4SP for example). You can continue launching LRMs at your prime target while fighting off circling lights. You cant target the lights of course, so you dont knwo which parts are the most vulnerable, but you are still able to help out your team by sustained covering fire.

This is actually one of the few good examples, I think.

Of course, the first thing a player needs to learn that just because he is shot by a target at close doesn't mean he should stop firing LRMs at far away targets.
Mastery would then probably be keep using thos emissiles and using your defensive weaponry to fight off whoever got close to you. But there are, of course, severe practical limitations, even with two crosshairs. You have to deal with the additional heat as well, after all. It's probably a "when life gives you lemons, make lemonade" situations.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 07 October 2013 - 01:00 AM.

[Truesight]

MustrumRidcully, on 07 October 2013 - 12:59 AM, said:

This is actually one of the few good examples, I think.

Of course, the first thing a player needs to learn that just because he is shot by a target at close doesn't mean he should stop firing LRMs at far away targets.
Mastery would then probably be keep using thos emissiles and using your defensive weaponry to fight off whoever got close to you. But there are, of course, severe practical limitations, even with two crosshairs. You have to deal with the additional heat as well, after all. It's probably a "when life gives you lemons, make lemonade" situations.

It would be good if the LRM aiming is done with the Torso Crosshair, then you wouldnt have to flip your arm crosshair between the close and the far away target. I already tried that with the ctrl key, doesn't work out too well.

[Mr 144]

So, excluding the miraculous 4SP arms/twist....and the Atlas 40 degree arms...what specific mechs/variants are all of these people using that makes suh good use of minimalistic 20 degree arm sway over full component targeting of linked crosshairs?

[Karandor]

The orion actually has great arm movement. I run 2 PPCs or 2 LLs in the arms and 2 AC5s in the torso. With the LLs and the ACs I can keep the LLs on the target while I lead it with my torso ACs. It also lets me nail annoying lights with my PPCs since I have a low ping.

The arms have also saved me in the orion many a time from certain death thanks to torso twisting.

I love high mounted weapons in a lot of the maps. They are especially good in frozen city and alpine. In the more urban maps like river city and crimson straight I totally prefer articulated arms to get those quickly aimed shots off when lights and mediums are darting between buildings and to protect my CT in the inevitable brawls.

I also think articulated arms at the sides look cooler. Cataphracts look awesome.

Overall I'd say with the more long-range focused meta high mounts are superior. If we get more brawling maps things will even out. Crimson straight is really a map that favours articulated arms. Not much to safely peak over on that map.