139 replies to this topic

[Corvus Antaka]

Sephlock, on 30 September 2013 - 08:56 PM, said:

I'm genuinely curious: What part of the "stand at 1000 meters and snipe, duck behind cover, rinse, repeat" game is being broken by this "game breaking" module?

The part where you rush the enemy and die in a hail of PPC fire? The part where you get behind them and then die when their entire team turns around, and...



?

I have it on good authority that in the high elo brackets LRMS are practically half the team composition, and that is dominating 12v12 right now. I've even heard tales of BAP lances destroying ECM lances while LRMS rain from the sky at the most competitive ELO levels of 12v12.

As a lowly newb I'm still crawling up there. Sometimes when I'm lucky and take my commando or centurion I run into these miracle magician mechwarriors that crush 12 mans with LRMS and laugh at ECM because they are playing the "skilled game" of pinpoint jumpsniping.

I can only assume because the centurion and commando are so OP and my ELO is so low that when I take these amazing mechs I get lucky and run into one of these fabled and elite LRM 12v12 warriors that mock ECM as their LRM boats crush the enemy team.

You must be with me in the Low elo brackets Sephlock. Here you mostly find atlas D-DC lances, or straight up jumpsnipers. on occassion an LRM boat appears like magic. usually it's a catapult with a UAV that lights up the 4 D-DC and then rains hellfire from the sky while the atlas crumble beneath their feet.

I've at the same time been told that LRMS are "super easy mode guns" because holding a lock for an entire flight time, while hoping your scout doesn't lose lock, while waiting, is all much much easier than pressing "spacebar...drop...fire", which in turn takes significant skill.

Sadly high ELO bracket eludes me, so I will likely never experience these amazing 12 mans where LRMS are crushing entire ECM armies thrown against them.

Thus I must conclude that indeed current ECM & LRM balance is perfect and that players such as us are relegated to the lower elo leagues of pure jumpsniping and using cover to not get hit by lrms.

[Mystere]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 30 September 2013 - 09:08 PM, said:

I have it on good authority that in the high elo brackets LRMS are practically half the team composition, and that is dominating 12v12 right now. I've even heard tales of BAP lances destroying ECM lances while LRMS rain from the sky at the most competitive ELO levels of 12v12.

Well, the "monkey see, monkey do" types seem to have already brought that to the PUG scene. It's either that or the self-proclaimed "elites" are not so elite after all and are venting their frustrations on the PUGs. How sad.

Edited by Mystere, 30 September 2013 - 09:42 PM.

[Marj]

A decent seismic system would easily pick up every mech on the map, identify the size of each mech and filter out false positives with software much like modern radar does. Realism doesn't apply here because if it did seismic would be insanely OP. The only thing that would limit it is the distance between the receivers (the feet). Link mechs with seismic together though and you'd easily see everything.

Many people have asked for seismic to work only when a mech is standing still so I understand why the devs proposed it. I can see pro's and cons, so I'd vote abstain if it was an option. The weapons fire thing sounds interesting, details would be good.

[Imperius]

Krivvan, on 30 September 2013 - 08:33 PM, said:

But it's a worse mech than all the lights, except maybe the Commando.

Show me video proof of it sucking... Oh wait you haven't played it yet? You don't say

[xenoglyph]

Well, you're right 99% of the time PEEF. I guess this is the 1%.

Any nerf to seismic, one-sided or not, is a good nerf. I hope the next nerf is that it can't be used standing still, then it will be perfect.

[MustrumRidcully]

Uh, that sounds like a bad idea. It might sound logical, but it really only helps the guys that have t he least to lose by standing still. That's definitely not scouts.

The neatest thing is now imagining how a scout is moving close to enemy lines. The enemy, standing still and waiting for someone to come in firing range, can detect the scout through cover and all, the scout can't detect them, and once he turns a corner to get a look at his enemies, his enemies are ready and waiting.

[Drehl]

Rhent, on 30 September 2013 - 06:58 PM, said:

Second, light mechs have ECM, Speed and ridge line to protect them. From an ambush perspective 2 to 4 light mechs w/ ECM using terrrain smartly, could very easily destroy a lagging Atlas or Stalker before the enemy force to engage them and they wouldn't need seismic to do it. A potential counter to lights forming gank squads is to have a murder hole set up where you have mechs set up not moving and they get a 1 1/2 second warning blip to fire if the lights are going full throttle.

what?
2-4 lights can kill a lone atlas? and don't even need seismic? woohoo big news is big -.-
lone assaults deserve to die. even more if they get spotted and engaged by 2 or more lights.



the introduction of seismic was the biggest (indirect) nerf for lights since the start of the open beta. in pugs, there is no scouting. there are just a few pathes on every map, there is absolutely no adequate reward for scouting and most pug teams can't do anything with the informations you may provide. yeah sure there can be some position on a map where you can camp and hope that an enemy approaches (and doesn't recognize) you to see his seismic blib... but thats far more dangerous than running by them in cover.. and seriously why should anybody do this? scouting is pointless anyway.. so why pick the most dangerous way to do so?
so what role is left for lights?
harasser (the lack of a real scoutrole.. hell you don't even need a scout ..is one of the reasons why the jenner f is the absolute king of the lights).
what does a harasser do? punch the enemy in the back, get in if they are unaware, strike hard and vanish. break their lines by wreaking havoc in their backs.
with the introduction of seismic there wasn't any surprise moment. most times I play against clever enemys I peeked over a hill or around a corner directly in their barrels.. not fun. the range reduction helped a little.. but it's still a must have module.. thus making it horribly overpowered compared to the other modules.
with seismic, the situation awareness, the main difference between good and bad lights does help you much less as it should. because no matter how good and clever you navigate.. the enemy will always know where you are. (keep in mind: most non troll-lightbuilds have an effective range of 270m or below... and staying in the 30 m window is almost impossible)

peef is completely right in this point... this change will buff the heavies and assaults even more while punishing those who are underrepresent anyway. lights, fast meds and heavys (dragon and quickdraw).. I'm looking at you). great.. just great.
this module needs a scaling decrease in detectionrange, depending on the tonnage of the approaching mech. lets say 250m for an atlas and scale down to 0.2*250... 50m for flea and locust.

nevertheless. the ability to shoot the envirement for blib generations sounds nice... even when I doubt that lasers will do so. (again a disadvantage for lights but I don't care mutch about this one.)

Edited by Drehl, 01 October 2013 - 12:14 AM.

[w0rm]

Have to agree with PEEF here. It should be tonnage based.

[Shakma]

ObsidianSpectre, on 30 September 2013 - 02:31 PM, said:

I'd rather they removed it entirely, but this is the next best thing.

I'm still astounded at PGI's reluctance to just cut features that aren't working out, and their insistence on making them increasingly complex as an alternative.

Exactly. Back in the closed beta days situational awareness was something to distinguish better from worse players, since it rly made a difference. I'm happy to hear about another nerf to seismic, but it will still remain a must have I guess.

[Karl Streiger]

How does seismic nerf - will affect light mechs?
In my opinion: Seismic - is simple an NO LOS detection tool.
If you can see targets - you don't need it - using seismic - instead of visual contacts - simple is bad scouting.
So you will use it mostly behind cover? Check the surroundings?

There are still other modules - and maybe even modules to come - that will be more important:

Please correct me if I'm totally wrong.

[MustrumRidcully]

Karl Streiger, on 01 October 2013 - 12:44 AM, said:

How does seismic nerf - will affect light mechs?
In my opinion: Seismic - is simple an NO LOS detection tool.
If you can see targets - you don't need it - using seismic - instead of visual contacts - simple is bad scouting.
So you will use it mostly behind cover? Check the surroundings?

There are still other modules - and maybe even modules to come - that will be more important:

Please correct me if I'm totally wrong.

Yes, as a scout you also want visual confirmation. But you don't want to run in the middle of the enemy bulk. Seismic helps you avoid that, so it's a fine tool for a scout. You can already report t he enemies position and possibly movement direction, and you can plan your approach to ensure you don't walk out in front of them.

If you are the "bulk" of mechs that is to be scouted, seismic can warn you about the presence of a scout. If you're trying to lay a trap, the change is ideal. You stand still, and can detect any enemy, including scouts, and "greet" them with your full firepower.

---

I really think Seismic would work best as a deployable item.

[Krivvan]

MustrumRidcully, on 01 October 2013 - 01:01 AM, said:

I really think Seismic would work best as a deployable item.

A timed deployable item that shows up on the battle map might be quite interesting.

But that might require quite a bit of work to implement.

It should be noted that the light pilots in this thread aren't saying that seismics shouldn't be nerfed, rather, that this is the wrong way to nerf seismics.

[w00tzor]

When they first introduced the Siesmic i saw tons of cryiers on the forum because "OMGITSOPNERFITASAPLIGHTSAREUSELESS!!11!1!oneone".

Now they have decided to nerf it, finally, and people are crying about the nerf because "OMGITSOPNERFITASAPLIGHTSAREUSELESS!11!1!11!".

Learn to play guys, maybe? Adapt and overcome. Some of us, here, played without Siesmic for almost 1 year, and we are still alive.

[Krivvan]

w00tzor, on 01 October 2013 - 01:45 AM, said:

Learn to play guys, maybe? Adapt and overcome. Some of us, here, played without Siesmic for almost 1 year, and we are still alive.

And again, you don't get it. I played without seismics too, probably for longer than you. The problem isn't that they're nerfing seismics. That's great. The problem is that they're nerfing it more for lights than for heavies and assaults that are more frequently stationary. Lights used their seismics while moving. Heavies/Assaults used their seismics while staying still.

This isn't a game-breaking deal for me (although I imagine peef is more mad about it), but it's relatively clear why a number of light pilots wouldn't be happy about this, and it's not about not being able to play without seismics.

Edited by Krivvan, 01 October 2013 - 01:48 AM.

[PEEFsmash]

w00tzor, on 01 October 2013 - 01:45 AM, said:

When they first introduced the Siesmic i saw tons of cryiers on the forum because "OMGITSOPNERFITASAPLIGHTSAREUSELESS!!11!1!oneone".

Now they have decided to nerf it, finally, and people are crying about the nerf because "OMGITSOPNERFITASAPLIGHTSAREUSELESS!11!1!11!".

Learn to play guys, maybe? Adapt and overcome. Some of us, here, played without Siesmic for almost 1 year, and we are still alive.

You are missing the point. Seismic as it currently stands is a nerf to lights, however, it is at least equally usable by every mech. Now, the only mechs that can even have it as a serious option are those who stand still, aka heavies and assaults. Now it isn't even on the table for lights/meds to take.

[Karl Streiger]

Are there not other tools for scouts like UAV?

MustrumRidcully, on 01 October 2013 - 01:01 AM, said:

Yes, as a scout you also want visual confirmation. But you don't want to run in the middle of the enemy bulk. Seismic helps you avoid that, so it's a fine tool for a scout. You can already report t he enemies position and possibly movement direction, and you can plan your approach to ensure you don't walk out in front of them.

So you don't want to run into enemy behind the next turn? - So you have to stop - not to charge headless?

[Mr 144]

Size affecting range? yes please

One module benifiting one wieght class more than others? Meh...I give you "Capture Assist"...ininitely more useful to lights and mediums than heavies and assaults.

[Nryrony]

I guess at this stat we should consider removing the module.

If someone needs a buff by it, it are lights. Their role as scouts has been reduced to a minimum anyway. We don't need additional features to Nerf them further.

It was never easier to kill lights, except the spider. They need the ability to scout and back-stab otherwise they become useless.

Edited by Nryrony, 01 October 2013 - 02:49 AM.

[w00tzor]

PEEFsmash, on 01 October 2013 - 01:49 AM, said:

You are missing the point. Seismic as it currently stands is a nerf to lights, however, it is at least equally usable by every mech. Now, the only mechs that can even have it as a serious option are those who stand still, aka heavies and assaults. Now it isn't even on the table for lights/meds to take.

Don't think so. It just depends on the "playstyle".

Passive scout/sensorboat>siesmic
Active scout>visual contact

It will nerf scouts, in general, for sure, but remember that >weapon fire and weapon hits on the terrain< will disrupt the siesmic efficiency too. And to be honest this can be a great drawback, because if you're big, fat and heavy you're always under fire/firing your weapons [ for example: i'm shooting you or your cover with 1 PPC/AC2/whatever every X seconds, you can't use the siesmic in the meanwhile].

My point is just one: let's try this first, i am pretty confident that this will not be the "BIG" that most of you are seeing now here, but you know, points of view.

[-Natural Selection-]

I took them off most my mechs and found some more fun in the game. They are pretty much only on my lights now, as 90% of my playing was in them before. Now that Im only in them about 10% of the time due to not wanting to be that guy in the broken mech. I probably wouldn't miss it if hey even removed it altogether TBH.

But I only see pure lrm boats and snipers really using it(or working on), and someone who stands still that long Im not really worried about.

Edited by Dozier, 01 October 2013 - 03:20 AM.