Another one for you BT fans out there:
In tabletop, can a Mech possibly overheat if all it has is a single medium laser? Normal terrain, not bathing in lava or something weird.
Just curious, because I'm fiddling around with my stock Victor and notice that walking + 1 ML is already too much for 10 standard heatsinks. No idea which genius game designer thought that would be cool. In one of the NGNG interviews they said standard heatsinks are working as intended...
Another one for you BT fans out there:
In tabletop, can a Mech possibly overheat if all it has is a single medium laser? Normal terrain, not bathing in lava or something weird.
Just curious, because I'm fiddling around with my stock Victor and notice that walking + 1 ML is already too much for 10 standard heatsinks. No idea which genius game designer thought that would be cool. In one of the NGNG interviews they said standard heatsinks are working as intended...
In order to simulate the Ponderous Walking Behemoth effect and get rid of the gamey arcade thing PGI did the High Capacity slow dissipation routine. Koniving hates this approach and beats it like a dead horse whenever possible. It is however mathematically correct. Quite an appropriate translation from TT to FPS. To render the simulation in terms that didn't have this feature would be a ginormous PITA, requiring a full delete, and then rebuilding the weapon firing rates, heat, tossing TT damage rates, throwing in multiple round ACs, refactoring armor, ditching the Crit Table and starting over.
You must understand that TT rules totally suck. Totally suck! They are godawful. The introduction of Double Strength Heat Sinks and Clans so early in the time line blew every bit of balance out of the window. If we were using TT rules transliterated to FPS the Commando would rule! Think about that! Let us not even consider a Stock Javelin or my favorite mech the Catapult A1 in SplatCat config.
I won't debate it here. But I will leave this for a comparison.
Spoiler
In doing the high capacity low cooling system (which btw after the skills is an average of 0.03 more cooling per engine DHS and 0.039 less cooling per chassis mounted DHS when each DHS in tabletop does 0.2 cooling per second), we've been required to use ghost heat and practical clan rigs can reach thresholds of up to 120 (that's 8 ER PPCs at once).
Had it been done as per TT and MW3, we'd shut down at 3 PPCs fired at once, 2 ER PPCs fired at once, 4 LLs while moving, 6 LRM-15s fired at once (with damage per MWO's overheat system), 7 ML while moving, and the only issue we'd have is ballistic boats. Ammunition reduction would've fixed that. None of it would be affected by our actual heatsink counts. It'd be you shut down period. No ifs, no ands, no buts. Heatsinks would only affect cooling. Double armor may still have happened. But I doubt we'd seriously need to consider "doubling the double armor" as PGI is being forced to do.
The game's general meta would be damage per second with only some focus on burst damage. Low damage, higher speed builds would be the big go-to as opposed to assault warrior online. (Thus mediums and lights would be the workhorse).
All mechs would shut down far more often and frequently. At the same time they'd cool fairly faster. Chain fire would be common place. Mechs would survive longer. The general fact is all mechs would shut down much faster and much sooner in a TT or MW3 format. The twin PPC + Gauss rig would have been a once every 6 to 8 second ordeal instead of once every 4 seconds, and even then it'd come with a risk of shutdown where the current ones never seem to shut down.
The long and short of it is whether to appease fast kills and plentiful alpha strikes of snipers and 5-second brawlers with mechs double or even triple armored yet die like flies or to appease the chain fire of 1 to 3 minute brawls in mechs single or double armored that feel like immortal walking tanks.
PGI chose the alpha strikes, despite the design pillar against it. In their eyes heat management would matter more if your cooling was 0.009/sec slower on 10 heatsinks of your 20 DHS while allowing you to have 46.8 more threshold to allow you to alpha strike that much more. Honestly with rigs that would never ever work in a direct TT to real time (no changes to anything at all except firing rate), I'm heat neutral as in cold before I can even fire again in 4 second periods. Thus I fail to agree with them here.
However, at the same time, MWO runs on a server authority and cannot handle mass spam of projectile weapons, DPS-style weapons, etc. without suffering hit registration issues. So there really isn't a choice in how PGI handled it without changing the core system of how the game runs. While I dislike how the heat system was warped, I do understand the necessity.
When given the option, a proper Battletech game in real time or a hacker free game, I must go with the second option every time. This means accepting things that battletech lovers may not like. That said, a fixed yet high threshold such as 60 would more than make the game fair for both DHS and SHS users. The rising system is an unnecessary disparity in my eyes. It would also make the clan mechs not as unfair when they come our way.
Now, as for the question...
Would you shut down with an ML in tabletop with 10 SHS? Consider that for this we'd have to compare both TT and MWO ML heat. In tabletop it is not possible as you have 10 seconds between shots. So we're using MWO's firing rate.
In 10 seconds you'd generate 7 heat (out of 30) at the end of the time slice while moving. 23.33% at 10 seconds.
MWO ML heat in TT while moving at 6 heat.
Spoiler
3 heat per ML. 1 ML. Firing rate 4 seconds. 10 SHS cooling is 10/10 = 1 cooling per second. 6 heat constant for walking (in an Awesome).
0 seconds. Fire ML. 6+ 4 heat.
1 second. 9 heat.
2 seconds. 8 heat.
3 seconds. 7 heat.
4 seconds. Fire ML. 6 + 4 heat.
5 seconds. 9 heat.
6 seconds. 8 heat.
7 seconds 7 heat.
8 seconds fire 1 ML. 6+ 4 heat.
9 seconds. 9 heat.
10 seconds. 8 heat.
In 10 seconds you'd generate 8 heat at the end of the time slice while moving. 26.67% heat at 10 seconds.
Even in MWO, the only difference is that you have 10 threshold more than tabletop with 10 SHS. It should be theoretically impossible to overheat with a single ML unless something was wrong with single heatsinks or you're in a map other than Forest Colony, Crimson Strait, Canyon, or the River Cities. In MWO 10 SHS are superior to 10 in tabletop for the sole reason of the rising threshold.
Stock victor in caustic valley (it doesn't overheat much at all, something must be wrong or you're leaving info out). I run these for the challenge.
Ultimately the MWO core heat system works like this:
Spoiler
MWO SHS
Threshold: 30 base + number of heatsinks = threshold + 20% heat containment for master (full elite).
Cooling: number of heatsinks / 10 = cooling rate + 15% Cool Run for master (full elite).
Minimum is 40 for threshold, 1/sec cooling. After master, minimum is 50 threshold, 1.15/sec cooling.
TT and most mechwarrior and battletech games except MW2 (40 threshold) and MW4 (60 threshold) Single HeatSinks.
30 threshold. Period.
Number of heatsinks / 10 = cooling rate.
Minimum is 1/sec cooling. 30 threshold is never changing.
MWO DHS.
Threshold: 30 base + (number of built-in engine heatsinks * 2) + (number of added heatsinks *1.4) = threshold + 20% heat containment for master (full elite).
Cooling: (number of built-in engine heatsinks * 2) + (number of added heatsinks *1.4) / 10 = cooling rate + 15% Cool Run for master (full elite).
Minimum is complicated. For 100 engine, minimum is: (4*2) + (6*1.4) + 30 = 46.4 threshold, 1.64/sec cooling. After master, 55.68 threshold and 1.886 cooling.
For 250 engine: Minimum is: (10*2) + (0*1.4) + 30 = 50 for threshold, 2/sec cooling. After master, minimum is 60 threshold, 2.30/sec cooling.
TT and most mechwarrior and battletech games except MW2 (40 threshold) and MW4 (60 threshold) Double heatsinks:
Threshold. 30. Never changes.
Cooling: 2/sec for 10 DHS, regardless of engine size.
And to check it, someone made this handy little heat simulator. It needs the PPC and ER PPC heat updates, as well as pulse laser updates. http://keikun17.gith...eat_simulator/#
It should be theoretically impossible to overheat with a single ML unless something was wrong with single heatsinks or you're in a map other than Forest Colony, Crimson Strait, Canyon, or the River Cities.
Running around the Awesome on testing ground River City, STD250, 1 ML firing with nearly no break. Overheat.
I'll play around once the phoenix stock mechs arrive, since all my other ones are upgraded already. Smurfy says I can't overheat, too. But I'm pretty sure I recognize an overheat when seeing one
Running around the Awesome on testing ground River City, STD250, 1 ML firing with nearly no break. Overheat.
I'll play around once the phoenix stock mechs arrive, since all my other ones are upgraded already. Smurfy says I can't overheat, too. But I'm pretty sure I recognize an overheat when seeing one
So yeah, tell that my Victor...
Maybe running heat is higher than expected?
support@mwomercs.com
But I should note that unmentioned weapons get penalties to avoid ALL heat neutral builds or so the attempt goes. Paul has this big thing against them. An example, using exclusively a single flamer and sporting 27 DHS can still result in an overheat or even self termination, but firing 6 ER PPCs at 100% heat will not.
There's also a relatively unknown mechanic called "Heat Retention" which applies to the mech itself. We have no idea how it works but when issues like that is mentioned, that's what support points to. "That's because of heat retention." "What is heat retention?" "Heat retention is when the weapon retains residual heat from constant use, making it more and more difficult to sink the heat." This occurs with mostly smaller, weaker weapons but does not appear to have any visual effect on PPCs or ER PPCs. More testing is necessary.
This is presumably why continuous shots generate more heat than previous shots, causing what seems to be an inconsistent heat build up. Even the heat simulator cannot account for it. But without an explanation or manual on it, all we can do is hypothesize.
Was having a friendly debate with a buddy the other night. He claims that regular lasers are best for combating light mechs, because pulse lasers concentrate all their damage on one and only one spot (so if you don't happen to hit as soon as you pull the trigger, you miss). I told him that I disagree and am pretty sure that pulse lasers can sweep across a target just like regular lasers, merely delivering their damage at a faster rate (and thereby more likely to land more of it on a fast moving target), and that pulse lasers would be the way to go.
So, to end this debate, I ask simply, can a pulse laser damage more than one location on a mech in one shot (e.g. as it sweeps across the target)?
Was having a friendly debate with a buddy the other night. He claims that regular lasers are best for combating light mechs, because pulse lasers concentrate all their damage on one and only one spot (so if you don't happen to hit as soon as you pull the trigger, you miss). I told him that I disagree and am pretty sure that pulse lasers can sweep across a target just like regular lasers, merely delivering their damage at a faster rate (and thereby more likely to land more of it on a fast moving target), and that pulse lasers would be the way to go.
So, to end this debate, I ask simply, can a pulse laser damage more than one location on a mech in one shot (e.g. as it sweeps across the target)?
Pulse lasers do their damage in fewer bursts, but they still split it into parts.
Your friend has a point - it is much easier to outright miss with a pulse laser, making those untrained in them unhappy with hunting lights (Large and Medium pulse do their damage over 0.6 seconds - comparable to the Large and Medium standard lasers 1.0 seconds)
You also have a point though - each pulse on the Pulse lasers is worth more, so that slight hit from a pulse laser is worth more than a similar time from a standard laser.
Large Pulse does... what? 1.7 damage a pulse, (approx?)
(10.6 damage over 0.6 seconds doing damage every 0.1 seconds?)
As opposed to the LL's 0.9?
(9.0 damage over 1.0 seconds doing damage every 0.1 seconds?)
Don't quote me on that though, as I could very easily not have a clue what I am talking about
New questions!
Why do the following Mechs have no ability to fly/jump?
Locust
Cicada
Flea
Dragon
Let's see what answers you come up with
Also, quick update on heat: I just managed to overheat a stock LCT-3M with a single ML, while standing still! All our online weaponlabs are not completely accurate.
New questions!
Why do the following Mechs have no ability to fly/jump?
Locust
Cicada
Flea
Dragon
Also, quick update on heat: I just managed to overheat a stock LCT-3M with a single ML, while standing still! All our online weaponlabs are not completely accurate.
Only Mechs with JJ on the Official BattleTech Record Sheets get jump jets. This is why the Catapult K2 doesn't have them but all other Catapults do.
The online tools are the most accurate at Heat Tracking. None of them include the Map heat.
The online tools are the most accurate at Heat Tracking. None of them include the Map heat.
If that premise is true, the conclusion is that River City is not neutral. either way, something is wrong here, cause I was testing while standing still on a street in River City, 10 standard heatsinks, 1 ML. Every tool says I cannot possibly overheat. But I do (after like 15 minutes of shooting, alot faster when running).
If that premise is true, the conclusion is that River City is not neutral. either way, something is wrong here, cause I was testing while standing still on a street in River City, 10 standard heatsinks, 1 ML. Every tool says I cannot possibly overheat. But I do (after like 15 minutes of shooting, alot faster when running).
River City is Heat Neutral.
Without going into lots of detail mainly because I don't have a lot of details yet, Beam Energy Weapons do not behave as expected in terms of Heat Generation and Dissipation. This is something I started discussing with Void Angel last week. Then Double XP Weekend, Phoenix, and my Birthday (today) happened. In short I haven't done more about exploring the effect. I have a working hypothesis and a draft of the method for experimentation. I'll try to work it out later.
I want to state this point very clearly. The Effect is not a bug. It is a little understood feature but that doesn't make it a bug. It makes it something that no one explored during a year of Closed and Open Beta.
Oh I never thought it was. I just question the game design choices concerning the difference in heatsink types
In my crazy world, standard means "not awesome but does the job". Overheating with 1 ML does NOT do the job
I think the rules are more based on the Solaris VII dueling rules. This would mean the following would be true:
Each turn is 2.5 seconds as opposed to 10 seconds in length of table top.
Each weapon has a Cooldown period. In tabletop each weapon can be fired every 10 seconds.
In the case of a Medium Laser it had a Cooldown period of 2.5 seconds vs 10 seconds in tabletop. It will generate 5 heat each shot.
This means every 2.5 second you can fire your Medium laser.
In Solaris rules the Single Heat sink dissipates 1/2 point of heat per round. Or 1 heat every 5 seconds.
This means in 10 seconds you can generate 8 points from walking and 20 points from shots, in 10 seconds.
In 4 turns you dissipate 20 heat.
This means every 10 seconds you have a net gain of 8 heat. Assuming that the shutdown is still set at 30 heat, you would automatically shut down if you ran and fired a single Medium laser over and over in 37.5 seconds.
These rules may look closer to what your observing in MWO vs a strict tabletop interpretation.
Scenario... Trying to build my first mech but unable to convert armor to ferro-fibrous, structure to endo-steel, or heat sinks to double. Did they break the MechLab or am I doing something wrong? ie. Nothing in UPGRADES seems to work.
You have to drag and drop the upgrade over. Please make sure that the build is otherwise empty in case you don't have enough slots. Only use Ferro Fibrous with extreme pointed and deliberate caution.
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Denolven, on 13 October 2013 - 02:59 PM, said:
