224 replies to this topic

[Wolfways]

Okay, i keep getting asked what i mean when i say that light mechs in MWO recieved a bigger defense buff over the other classes because of TT values and why i think armour values should have been increased incrementally with lights getting the smallest buff and assaults getting the biggest, so i'm making this post so i don't have to explain it over and over.

First for anyone who doesn't know, all mech armour was doubled in MWO over the TT values because mechs were being destroyed too fast which made for very short matches.

Right...
MWO is based on the Battletech tabletop game and it uses the Battletech armour values for mechs (doubled).
In Battletech all damage from weapons fire is applied to a mechs components randomly. You roll 2D6 to see where your shot hit the enemy mech and damage from the weapon is applied to that component (i.e. side torso, head, right leg, etc.) Every time you fire any weapon you get the same chance to hit every component.
Imagine there's a match between a Jenner and an Atlas (just using these as examples but it applies to every mech). Both roll to hit their opponent and both roll to see where their weapons hit and apply damage.
Now, because they both have the same random chance to hit the enemy components the Atlas is at an advantage because all his components have more armour than the Jenners components, so the Jenner needs to hit the Atlas more often than the Atlas needs to hit the Jenner to remove armour from those components...unless (and this is important) one of them is lucky enough to roll on the same location multiple times and tear through that components armour.

Now imagine that a new rule was introduced that says "Because the Atlas moves so slow you can roll 2D6 and if you get a double you get to choose where your weapons hit it instead of rolling the dice for hit location." Suddenly the Jenner has recieved an automatic lucky roll (see above) with many of his shots. He now has a much higher chance of killing the Atlas because every time he rolls a double he can choose the same location, for example the centre torso.
Would this be fair?
This is what has happened in MWO. The slower the mech (including slower torso twist) the easier it is to hit the same component over and over because instead of rolling dice to find the hit location we can aim where we want. We roll a double every time we fire. The only thing that reduces your chance of reliably hitting the same component over and over is the speed of the target mech. The faster the mech the more chance you have of missing the component you were aiming at and hitting another component (or even missing the target completely), therefore spreading the damage.
This means that the faster the mech moves in MWO the more like the random hit locations from the tabletop game it becomes.

So, the faster the mech the more it can spread the damage and survive.
This means that faster mechs have gained more defense by all mechs having the same armour values (doubled) as the tabletop game which was made for a random hit location table, not for players being able to choose where their shots hit.
Generally, lights recieved the biggest buff, followed by mediums, then heavies, then assaults.
This is why i believe that armour values (assuming PGI wished to stay somewhat true to the original values, which they've shown they do) should have been increased incrementally.
For example:
Lights - 25% increase.
Mediums - 50% increase.
Heavies - 75% increase.
Assaults - 100% increase.
(Obviously these are just random numbers i chose for the example. PGI would have to decide on the actual numbers used and through testing and gameplay adjust accordingly.)

The way MWO is now many players think lights seem to take a lot more damage than they expected (assuming no bugged hitboxes), while assaults seem to take little damage to destroy (although generally still more than lights). This is because the damage is spread on lights and concentrated on assaults.
Obviously the skill of both players (firer and target) is involved but assuming average skill i'd say that it's much easier to hit an assaults centre torso consecutively than it is to hit a lights centre torso consecutively.
This is also why big damage weapons or Alpha strikes (like gauss+2xPPC which PGI is trying to remove) are popular. They cause high damage to a single component and if the enemy isn't destroyed in one hit then the next shot might destroy them if it hits the same location.
It's also why many players try to destroy a light mechs leg first, to slow it down and make it easier to hit in the same location reliably.

When it comes to speed there is another thing to consider. We can customize our mechs.
Imo, generally it is the light mechs that prioritize speed as the primary important consideration when customizing. After all, the light mech mantra is "Speed is life".
Assault mech speeds tends to not change much from their stock versions. Heavy mech speed can be considered more important than for assaults but weapons are still probably the most important consideration.
For light mechs changing engine usually means fitting just about the biggest engine you can, and the speed increase between a stock light and a customized light can be huge. For example the Raven-3L (not one of the fastest mechs) comes with an XL210 which gives it a speed of 97.2kph but can use an XL295 which increases its speed to 136.5kph. An increase of 39.3kph. An Atlas-D-DC on the other hand comes stock with an STD300 giving a speed of 48.6kph and can upgrade to a STD (or XL)360 which increases the speed to 58.3kph. An increase of only 9.7kph. The speed increase grows with the smaller the weight class (generally).
I think this is part of what causes medium mechs to be less popular than the other weight classes. Part of the mediums role is to kill lights and flank the enemy and they need high speed to do that, but if they increase the engine size too much then they limit their weapon choice to smaller or less weapons. If they choose weapons as the primary consideration then they may not have the speed to chase lights or flank the enemy. It's a tough choice and finding a balance seems to be more important for mediums than for other weight classes.

Anyway, that's why i say that lights got a bigger defense buff over other classes in the conversion from TT to MWO.

[StalaggtIKE]

Hmm..., perhaps something like this can be implemented once the speed cap has been lifted; else it would seem unfair. Also, I imagine that the difference in armor increase would need not be as drastic.

[stjobe]

An AC/20 hurts a Jenner much more than it hurts an Atlas.

Or, put another way, 20 damage is a much larger percentage of a Jenner's armour than an Atlas'.

In short, the balance you're seeking is already there from the mere fact that heavier 'mechs have more armour to protect them - to lower lights armour to just +25% over BT would spell their extinction; a pilot who is a good shot could one-shot a light every 4 seconds.

So thanks for the explanation; you're still wrong

Edited by stjobe, 02 October 2013 - 05:41 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Anyway, that's why i say that lights got a bigger defense buff over other classes in the conversion from TT to MWO.

It was 100% intentional to equalize light mechs with assaults. If PGI had done what you proposed and scaled armor incrementally then light mechs would be completely useless.

The problem isnt that light mechs survive proportionally better than assault mechs. The problem is that damage in general is still way too high and PGI needs to increase center and side torso armor/internal structure to compensate for it since theyve made it abundably clear they arnt going to fix convergence.

Increasing internal structure is the best way to go. Because it will prevent Locust/Fleas from being one-shotted, it will prevent heavies and assaults from being center torso cored as often, it will make critical hits matter more because items will get destroyed before the location theyre contained in, and it will have no effect on current builds since it doesnt change tonnage or armor values. Plus its a very easy fix for PGI and all they have to do is change the internal structure modifier value from 1.0 to 1.X.

Edited by Khobai, 02 October 2013 - 06:32 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

Hm .- nice reading, nice topic - but with a fundamental flaw:

You did not consider the "to hit rolls"
a Jenner is much harder to kill... using full advantage of its speed make it more difficult for the Atlas to hit him.
the only chance of an Atlas fighting and winning vs a Jenner in TT at standard terrain comes in form of its rerward medium lasers, so that the Jenner will never have shot - without return fire. (that changes drastically when you mount a PPC or a Large Laser into the Jen.

On the average it take 150% the shots and potential damage to kill a dodgy Jenner as you need for a Atlas,

So before touching armor values - you have to look for the defensive movement first.

[Mawai]

Thanks for the write up on your proposal. At first glance it sounds logical. However, the problem lies in the fact that MWO is not TT Battletech.

If your guidelines were followed, the only useful mechs would be assaults.

Most heavies and mediums generally move slow enough that it is easy to hit the CT (except perhaps if firing at close range from a very slow assault mech). With reduced armour these mechs would be vaporized since your statement regarding hitting them is incorrect. This extends to slow light mechs as well. Lights begin to get harder to hit at about 120+ ... most speed tweaked light mechs (and the cicada) top out at 153km/h. These CAN be harder to hit. However, with 12 mechs on each team, and the lower armor values on light mechs, enough shots hit that these die very quickly already.

1:1 fighting a light mech with a heavy or assault can be challenging but not impossible. However, if a heavy/assault pilot has allowed themselves to get so far away from their team that a light mech has the opportunity to engage them 1:1 then strategically they have made a mistake.

It's a team game and by design PGI has made it so that all the mechs are potentially useful ... which means that in the right circumstances you can be playing rock paper scissors with ... lights > assaults > heavies > mediums > lights ... though it takes a good light pilot to survive an engagement with an assault mech long enough to kill them (unless the assault doesn't defend itself and use terrain to its benefit).

[Wolfways]

stjobe, on 02 October 2013 - 05:40 AM, said:

An AC/20 hurts a Jenner much more than it hurts an Atlas.

Or, put another way, 20 damage is a much larger percentage of a Jenner's armour than an Atlas'.

Yes, that's obvious.

Quote

In short, the balance you're seeking is already there from the mere fact that heavier 'mechs have more armour to protect them - to lower lights armour to just +25% over BT would spell their extinction; a pilot who is a good shot could one-shot a light every 4 seconds.

So thanks for the explanation; you're still wrong

You don't get it.
Say you're firing at an assault with a ML (instead of just using the highest damage weapon, for the same reason wrote about). How many shots does it take to destroy the ct (which you can reliably hit)?
Now try the same thing with a moving light mech. How many shots does it take? More if the combined amount of armour of the hit components adds up to more than the armour of the assaults ct, because you will miss the ct more often.

Khobai, on 02 October 2013 - 05:43 AM, said:

It was 100% intentional to equalize light mechs with assaults. If PGI had done what you proposed and scaled armor incrementally then light mechs would be completely useless.

I disagree. I think it would force smaller, faster mechs to avoid getting into a bigger mechs fire arc, instead using hit and run tactics like they are described as using in BT lore.

Quote

The problem isnt that light mechs survive proportionally better than assault mechs. The problem is that damage in general is still way too high and PGI needs to increase center and side torso armor/internal structure to compensate for it since theyve made it abundably clear they arnt going to fix convergence.

Increasing internal structure is the best way to go. Because it will prevent Locust/Fleas from being one-shotted, it will prevent heavies and assaults from being center torso cored as often, it will make critical hits matter more because items will get destroyed before the location theyre contained in, and it will have no affect on current builds since it doesnt change tonnage or armor values. Plus its a very easy fix for PGI and all they have to do is change the internal structure modifier value from 1.0 to 1.X.

Yes, i agree with this completely.

[Wolfways]

Karl Streiger, on 02 October 2013 - 05:51 AM, said:

Hm .- nice reading, nice topic - but with a fundamental flaw:

You did not consider the "to hit rolls"

I did consider the to hit rolls, and said that you could miss the target completely. But the to hit rolls aren't factored into the random hit locations, and is handled in MWO by the players ability to aim well.

[stjobe]

Wolfways, on 02 October 2013 - 06:14 AM, said:

You don't get it.
Say you're firing at an assault with a ML (instead of just using the highest damage weapon, for the same reason wrote about). How many shots does it take to destroy the ct (which you can reliably hit)?
Now try the same thing with a moving light mech. How many shots does it take? More if the combined amount of armour of the hit components adds up to more than the armour of the assaults ct, because you will miss the ct more often.

Let's do the math.

A stock JR7-F has 30 front CT armour, and 44 Internal Structure. That's 77 points of damage needed to destroy it, which works out to 15.4 5-point ML hits, so let's say 16 hits.

A stock AS7-D-DC has 94 points of front CT armour and 124 IS, making it 218 points to destroy, which is 44 ML hits.

44 / 16 = 2.75, so you could miss two out of three shots (almost) and still destroy the Jenner before the Atlas.

Edited by stjobe, 02 October 2013 - 06:22 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

I disagree. I think it would force smaller, faster mechs to avoid getting into a bigger mechs fire arc, instead using hit and run tactics like they are described as using in BT lore.

It's impossible for a light mech to stay out of a bigger mechs fire arc. Even my stalker which has zero torso twisting can still get shots off on a light mech thats circling around it.

[Karl Streiger]

Wolfways, on 02 October 2013 - 06:20 AM, said:

I did consider the to hit rolls, and said that you could miss the target completely. But the to hit rolls aren't factored into the random hit locations, and is handled in MWO by the players ability to aim well.

Yeah but you will miss the Jenner more often - so movement is its armor, not the armor itself.
So if hiting a target becomes more difficult we can take a closer look towards upgrading Mechs armor.

[Wolfways]

Mawai, on 02 October 2013 - 06:01 AM, said:

Most heavies and mediums generally move slow enough that it is easy to hit the CT (except perhaps if firing at close range from a very slow assault mech). With reduced armour these mechs would be vaporized since your statement regarding hitting them is incorrect.

Could you point out which statement you are referring to please? I'm not sure what you mean.

[Livewyr]

Well Wolfways, +1 on finally explaining what I've been trying to get across about light mechs for over a year now. (Light mech Speed is an unlimited defensive mechanism not truly experienced in TT.)

That said, I don't think the disparity in moving is great enough (currently) to warrant the Armor translation you propose. (Atlases can move at a max of 68kph or so, with is only 7kph less than HALF the speed of a light at full speed currently)

That being said, I think rather than mess with the direct (double) armor translation from TT, they should just put knockdowns in. (Knock downs were present in TT, but not nearly as common as they were, and would be, in MWO)

Light's gained a serious defensive attribute just in the translation to real-time play, I would suggest give them the serious risk that comes with the defensive attribute in real time play.


Bottom line from me: Leave the Armor values alone.. I don't want to 1-shot Jenners with a single AC20.
Put knockdowns back in, I want to drill that Jenner that warped around me carelessly at light speed. (See what I did there?)

[Wolfways]

stjobe, on 02 October 2013 - 06:20 AM, said:

Let's do the math.

A stock JR7-F has 30 front CT armour, and 44 Internal Structure. That's 77 points of damage needed to destroy it, which works out to 15.4 5-point ML hits, so let's say 16 hits.

A stock AS7-D-DC has 94 points of front CT armour and 124 IS, making it 218 points to destroy, which is 44 ML hits.

44 / 16 = 2.75, so you could miss two out of three shots (almost) and still destroy the Jenner before the Atlas.

lol you can't do the exact math when random hit locations are involved. That's the nature of random.
My point is that you will reliably hit the Atlas in the ct enough that the number of hits needed to destroy the Atlas is X% less than that needed in TT.
But you are less likely to keep hitting the Jenners ct so the hits are spread across the ct, st's, arms, and head. Therefore, the X% of hits needed to destroy the Jenner is closer to the TT value than the Atlas %.
I'm not saying that an Atlas is easier to kill than a Jenner, that's obvious. But the difference in defense between the two mechs is a lot closer than it was in TT.

[Wolfways]

Khobai, on 02 October 2013 - 06:22 AM, said:

It's impossible for a light mech to stay out of a bigger mechs fire arc. Even my stalker which has zero torso twisting can still get shots off on a light mech thats circling around it.

Yes if the light is circle strafing, or brawling. Lights are not supposed to brawl. They are supposed to be hit and run guerrilla fighters.

[Khobai]

Quote

Yes if the light is circle strafing, or brawling. Lights are not supposed to brawl. They are supposed to be hit and run guerrilla fighters.

Your opinion of how the game should be and how the game actually is are two completely different things.

There's nothing wrong with making suggestions to improve the game, but light mechs are always going to be capable brawlers, and thats never going to change. Light mechs are one of the few mechs that can actually knife-fight right now, as heavies and assaults are more or less forced into a sniping meta. And mediums are quite frankly underpowered.

The problem isnt that light mechs can brawl. The problem is that light mechs are too effective at brawling compared to medium mechs. This goes hand-in-hand with the problem of damage being too high since medium mechs are the most susceptible weight class to being destroyed by pinpoint alphas, since they get neither the evasion of lights nor the armor of heavies.

Increasing torso internal structure would help solve the problem because it would toughen up medium mechs relative to light mechs. Increasing light mech torso internals isnt going to make jenners any tougher because everyone aims for their legs anyway. But it will make mediums tougher since mediums often die to torso destruction.

Edited by Khobai, 02 October 2013 - 06:56 AM.

[Wolfways]

Karl Streiger, on 02 October 2013 - 06:23 AM, said:

Yeah but you will miss the Jenner more often - so movement is its armor, not the armor itself.
So if hiting a target becomes more difficult we can take a closer look towards upgrading Mechs armor.

Not quite. A mechs defense is speed+armour, but speed has a larger impact on defense than armour when it increases the chance of completely missing and spreads the damage of hits across multiple components thus also increasing the amount of armour you need to penetrate.

[stjobe]

Wolfways, on 02 October 2013 - 06:37 AM, said:

lol you can't do the exact math when random hit locations are involved. That's the nature of random.

Those are MWO numbers, a game that has very little randomness in its hit location determination.

Wolfways, on 02 October 2013 - 06:37 AM, said:

My point is that you will reliably hit the Atlas in the ct enough that the number of hits needed to destroy the Atlas is X% less than that needed in TT.

And as I just showed, you can kill the Jenner faster while missing 2/3rds of your shots (you'd probably kill it even quicker by ST-coring it by accident, but that's another matter).

Wolfways, on 02 October 2013 - 06:37 AM, said:

But you are less likely to keep hitting the Jenners ct so the hits are spread across the ct, st's, arms, and head. Therefore, the X% of hits needed to destroy the Jenner is closer to the TT value than the Atlas %.

Unless you show me some math, I'm going to call BS on your "X% this, Atlas% that". I showed you that you could miss two out of three shots and still kill a Jenner through CT-coring faster than you could do the same to an Atlas.

If you want it spelled out, that "miss 2 out of 3 shots" equates to a miss rate of 66%, where the shot either outright misses the target or hits some other location than the CT. If you want to work out how many of those missed shots are needed to kill the Jenner before it's cored through the CT, be my guest.

Now stop arguing from vague suppositions and show us some numbers to support your theory. I'm open to be proven wrong, but you'll have to use math to do it.

Edited by stjobe, 02 October 2013 - 06:57 AM.

[Wolfways]

Livewyr, on 02 October 2013 - 06:29 AM, said:

Well Wolfways, +1 on finally explaining what I've been trying to get across about light mechs for over a year now. (Light mech Speed is an unlimited defensive mechanism not truly experienced in TT.)

That said, I don't think the disparity in moving is great enough (currently) to warrant the Armor translation you propose. (Atlases can move at a max of 68kph or so, with is only 7kph less than HALF the speed of a light at full speed currently)

That being said, I think rather than mess with the direct (double) armor translation from TT, they should just put knockdowns in. (Knock downs were present in TT, but not nearly as common as they were, and would be, in MWO)

Light's gained a serious defensive attribute just in the translation to real-time play, I would suggest give them the serious risk that comes with the defensive attribute in real time play.


Bottom line from me: Leave the Armor values alone.. I don't want to 1-shot Jenners with a single AC20.
Put knockdowns back in, I want to drill that Jenner that warped around me carelessly at light speed. (See what I did there?)

Oh no i'm not trying to get amour values increased (but ct and st values do need increased imo)
And the numbers i used were just to show what i meant. I could have said lights 1%, mediums 2%, etc or lights 100%, mediums 1000%, etc. The numbers don't matter, just the intent.
I'm just trying to point out why faster mechs seem to be more durable than many expect.
I also understand that that's what PGI want. I just think it's unfortunate that the increased durability of lights has been enough to give them the ability to take over the role that belonged to mediums. i.e. brawling.

[Khobai]

Quote

I just think it's unfortunate that the increased durability of lights has been enough to give them the ability to take over the role that belonged to medium

I agree with you on that point. But I feel the solution is to buff mediums, not nerf lights.