575 replies to this topic

[Alistair Winter]

I'll just leave this here.
http://mwomercs.com/...streaks-lately/

I'm assuming PGI has a plan to make people use more light and medium mechs, instead of just heavy and assault mechs, as is the current norm. At some point, they're probably going to have some kind of tonnage limit that will stop teams from fielding 12 assault mechs or 12 heavy mechs.

And when that day comes, a lot of people who have been demanding that light mechs should stay inferior to other mechs ("because light mechs are supposed to be bad! It's all right here in my book!") will have to start learning how to use light mechs and they will face that 5 Streak Kintaro they supported a few months ago.

And I will be there, gently massaging myself with their tears as my hydrating moisturizer.

[FupDup]

Joseph Mallan, on 03 October 2013 - 03:57 AM, said:

I appreciate that Fup. But the abuse is not in the SSRM it is in boating of them. That has and will always make a weapon seem over powered. Is a Medium laser over powered? Is 9 of them? Is a PPC or 2 over powered or is 4-6 of them to much? 2-3 Machine guns are nothing to fear but 8-12 should be respected.

I had 2 SSRMs (I think) on my Sara. I pulled them cause of ECM and that they just take to long to cut down other lights. I replaced them with SRM4s, I'm happy now.

It's not about boating, it's about a mechanic that requires very low effort yet yields surprisingly high rewards in many situations. Whether you carry X or Y number of them doesn't affect the low effort input. I just want SSRMs to home in on where you aim the reticule, which solves their overeffectiveness against mediums and lights while simultaneously increasing their effectiveness against larger targets.

Edited by FupDup, 03 October 2013 - 04:10 AM.

[Krivvan]

Alistair Winter, on 03 October 2013 - 04:00 AM, said:

And when that day comes, a lot of people who have been demanding that light mechs should stay inferior to other mechs ("because light mechs are supposed to be bad! It's all right here in my book!") will have to start learning how to use light mechs and they will face that 5 Streak Kintaro they supported a few months ago.

I've seen no one make the argument that light mechs are bad because they're supposed to be bad.

Hell, I don't even think light mechs are bad. They are certainly equal in pug play. They may be slightly underpowered in 12v12, but they still serve a role so even then not really.

The 5 Streak Kintaro easily punishes bad light mech play. If an enemy team decides to boat them, then they severely handicap themselves against your heavier mechs and your superior weapon range as a light mech.

Like Cybermech mentioned, light mechs should be much more afraid of AC/20s and ER PPCs than Streaks. In the hands of a good pilot, those are far more dangerous.

Do people not realize that pretty much every Jenner out-ranges the streak Kintaro? And it's faster?

[B0oN]

The one thing that irks me most when I encounter a Streaktaro in my Jenner is this :
No matter how smart I use terrain and my bigger speed, no Light can get away effectively because of that funny thing called "speed-compression" and the layout of most maps that lets the Streaktaro guesstimate my escape route well enough to short-cut and reduce distance to me (!) while there is not one terrain element that hinders the Streaktaro well enough to be kept at distance (and with terrain elemeents that hinder anything bigger than Lights I mean narrow ravines, boulders that form the smallest gaps only passable by small mechs, paths narrow enough to be only traversed by small profiled-mechs and so on and on).

Streaks themselves are a bit overpowered and should be maybe dealing 1.8 dmg (just slightly less than srm´s), because all that targeting and following electronic devices are gonna need space inside that missile, so that warhead´s gotta be smaller or their fuel capacity (= range) smaller.

2 €cents, done here.

[Joseph Mallan]

FupDup, on 03 October 2013 - 04:10 AM, said:

It's not about boating, it's about a mechanic that requires very low effort yet yields surprisingly high rewards in many situations. Whether you carry X or Y number of them doesn't affect the low effort input. I just want SSRMs to home in on where you aim the reticule, which solves their overeffectiveness against mediums and lights while simultaneously increasing their effectiveness against larger targets.

I'd rather see SSRMs hit all over. It was really hard to group SSRMs like what is happening here. Streaks always hit, but they hit everywhere, peppering damage all over.

Though your idea is better than CT seeking, there would be a mass outcry if SSRMCats could aim all those Missiles on a leg!

[stjobe]

You know, lights survive mainly by being hard to hit. They don't have much in the way of armour to protect them.

What do SSRMs do? They always hit (barring flight path obstacles) no matter where the pilot actually aims, and that's one of the main reasons they are so effective against lights. They trivialize hitting what's usually very hard-to-hit targets.

Now heavies and assaults are the opposite of lights; they don't have much speed and maneuverability, but they have a lot of armour.

So imagine a weapon that ignored armour on heavies and assaults; would that be overpowered? It negates the main defense of those 'mechs just as SSRMs negate the main defense of lights.

I think most of you would answer yes to that question, and yet you think auto-hit SSRMs aren't overpowered against lights.

[Joseph Mallan]

Imagine an AC20 Jobe? No problem. Those shred my Atlas armor with near impunity. I don't complain. And That is why I am fine with SSRMs even against my Sara.

[Krivvan]

Rad Hanzo, on 03 October 2013 - 04:16 AM, said:

No matter how smart I use terrain and my bigger speed, no Light can get away effectively because of that funny thing called "speed-compression" and the layout of most maps that lets the Streaktaro guesstimate my escape route well enough to short-cut and reduce distance to me (!) while there is not one terrain element that hinders the Streaktaro well enough to be kept at distance (and with terrain elemeents that hinder anything bigger than Lights I mean narrow ravines, boulders that form the smallest gaps only passable by small mechs, paths narrow enough to be only traversed by small profiled-mechs and so on and on).

The Kintaro shouldn't be taking the shortcuts, you should be taking the shortcuts.

Use your jump jets.

For example, the lower area where Theta is on Frozen City with the ship. If you encounter a Kintaro down there, quickly jump back up and laugh as you hit it with your longer range medium lasers. If you are on the upper level, then jump down, let the Kintaro follow you, then jump back up. Proceed to laugh again as it's stuck down there.

On River City, near lower city spawn, run to the highway section with two long buildings on both side. Jump over one to the other road and the Kintaro can no longer follow you. Alternatively, go in the water to nullify streaks.

On Terra Therma, near the centre area, run up the mountain far away from the entrances to the centre and jump down. The Kintaro has to go all the way around to enter the centre, and you'll be long gone by then.

In the event you find no places you can lose it, then continuously duck and weave in and out of cover just long enough to break Streak lock. Lead it towards the heavier elements of your team where you can proceed to kill it.

And in the worst case scenario. If you have no exposed components and yellow to orange armour throughout. You can stay relatively still and just outright kill the Kintaro since you can focus your damage and it can't. Focus all your laser damage into the side torso or leg (whatever is weakest), and then run off. This sacrifices a lot of armour, but it can't focus fire on you so you'll win.


Addendum:

I almost forgot. You also need to learn how to fire back on an enemy while running away from it in a parallel direction making full use of your speed. Contrary to popular belief, you do NOT lose speed when jumping/hovering (or at least not significantly) no matter what the meter says. When running away from a Kintaro (or any light really) you can do a series of 360 degree jump spins while maintaining your running speed and direction allowing you to fire back at your target while simultaneously running from it. Doing this manuever consistently may require more than 1 jump jet though (I use 3-5).

If you manage to gain 270m distance from the Kintaro this way then you can continue to kite it until it realizes that it can not catch you anymore.

You should also never really get stuck on objects on the ground ever. In any situation. Unless it's a wall or large boulder, you have no excuse as a Jenner. This is another reason why you see so many Jenner pilots never stop making short jumps.

Edited by Krivvan, 03 October 2013 - 04:47 AM.

[Mogney]

What are we talking about here? Kintarors, Commandos, and Catapults? Three of the most fragile mechs in the game. Streaks can add up to alot of damage, but its not focused and you have to stay alive and maintain your lock for a long time to bring down anything with them. To say there is no skill involved is just wrong.

Plus as a light pilot I actually think the Kintaros are needed to keep the lights in check a bit, there is a real sense of fear when you see a streak kintaro, before that a good light pilot really only worried about other lights.

Leave the streaks as they are.

[Fut]

FupDup, on 02 October 2013 - 12:01 PM, said:

Lasers require the user to point at the desired hitbox, so your comparison is invalid. Streaks only need you to keep the crosshairs somewhere within the red rectangle, and you don't have to make the effort to designate enemy hitboxes because the game does it for the user. You are acting as if enemy mechs are single hitbox and that aiming at different spots makes no different. Holding a laser over the enemy's CT or whatever needs a lot more effort than simply keeping your reticule *anywhere* inside of a red box.

Streaks damage randomly when they hit though, so the best comparison would actually just be blasting lasers at a Mech without caring which of their hitboxes you're damaging.

When you look at it that way, it's quite similar.
Streaks: Hold mouse over target for a moment, then press a button.
Laser: Press a button, then hold your mouse over the target for a moment.

Same ****, just in a different order.

[Kaijin]

Kunae, on 02 October 2013 - 06:52 PM, said:

No.

They.

Were.

Not.

Streaks were made to save ammunition, so you didn't waste it with missed shots. It has NOTHING to do with lights.

Streaks in TT and the source books were made as you describe, but Lights in TT and the source books were not made to take down Assaults.

In MWO, Streaks are made to take down Lights. This is MWO we're playing, right?

Edited by Kaijin, 03 October 2013 - 05:00 AM.

[Blacksoul1987]

what I wonder is how is it a 30 ton mech is less than 1/10th the size of a 100 ton mech are they constructing lights out of depleted uranium now? I saw a commando die next to a victor's foot and well It looked like the victor's foot is bigger. why is it that lately light mechs seem to have no fear of charging head first at an atlas? Why is it that when I return to my teammates when I got a little leg humper following me he will continue to pursue me even with everyone shooting at him? Light pilots don't seem to fear anything these days and I think the scaling is just completely out of whack.

[Mogney]

stjobe, on 03 October 2013 - 04:25 AM, said:

You know, lights survive mainly by being hard to hit. They don't have much in the way of armour to protect them.

What do SSRMs do? They always hit (barring flight path obstacles) no matter where the pilot actually aims, and that's one of the main reasons they are so effective against lights. They trivialize hitting what's usually very hard-to-hit targets.

Now heavies and assaults are the opposite of lights; they don't have much speed and maneuverability, but they have a lot of armour.

So imagine a weapon that ignored armour on heavies and assaults; would that be overpowered? It negates the main defense of those 'mechs just as SSRMs negate the main defense of lights.

I think most of you would answer yes to that question, and yet you think auto-hit SSRMs aren't overpowered against lights.

Speed is still your best defense, either get more than 270 meters away, or just get behind the guy so he loses his lock. A light is not defenseless, its just that he has to use a different sort of defense than he does against lasers and ballistics.

Streaks also do not avoid collisions with other objects, you can use terrain and other hostile mechs to absorb that streak damage as well. Streaks are really easy to cause friendly fire damage with.

So yeah if you are a one-trick-pony when it comes to playing your light then I could see how you would think streaks are unfair and need to be removed. But if you can use cover and play it smart then it's just a different kind of challenge.

True, bigger mechs dont worry much about streaks, but they are green with envy that you can outrun a 50 LRM barrage.

Edited by Mogney, 03 October 2013 - 05:14 AM.

[-Natural Selection-]

I don't run around the map looking for lights. I stay with the assaults and help keep lights off of them.

You know where 99% of the lights I drop are? Running across the map straight into a group of 6-12 guys.

And if you are not charging in, then you need to think about how you let a 50-100kph mech sneak up on you.

[Kunae]

Krivvan, on 03 October 2013 - 04:12 AM, said:

I've seen no one make the argument that light mechs are bad because they're supposed to be bad.

DeaconW has been making that very argument, in this and every other thread about lights.

[Kunae]

Krivvan, on 03 October 2013 - 04:40 AM, said:

I almost forgot. You also need to learn how to fire back on an enemy while running away from it in a parallel direction making full use of your speed. Contrary to popular belief, you do NOT lose speed when jumping/hovering (or at least not significantly) no matter what the meter says. When running away from a Kintaro (or any light really) you can do a series of 360 degree jump spins while maintaining your running speed and direction allowing you to fire back at your target while simultaneously running from it. Doing this manuever consistently may require more than 1 jump jet though (I use 3-5).

If you manage to gain 270m distance from the Kintaro this way then you can continue to kite it until it realizes that it can not catch you anymore.

You should also never really get stuck on objects on the ground ever. In any situation. Unless it's a wall or large boulder, you have no excuse as a Jenner. This is another reason why you see so many Jenner pilots never stop making short jumps.

Kiting is not always an option. And even when it is, it's difficult to maintain a kite vs something which is not that much slower than you. Typically, by the time you're in this situation, you've already taken damage in the match, and one or two shots by 10 ssrms and 2ML(at minimum) can effectively kill you. You also seem to forget that the Kintaro has lasers, to back up it's SSRMs. This is something streak-cats never had, and were vulnerable because of which.
The reason you see so many Jenner pilots never stop making short jumps is because they know it can screw-up hit detection for direct-fire weapons. Same reason you see so many spiders do the same.

Kaijin, on 03 October 2013 - 04:59 AM, said:

Streaks in TT and the source books were made as you describe, but Lights in TT and the source books were not made to take down Assaults.

In MWO, Streaks are made to take down Lights. This is MWO we're playing, right?

Please show me a statement from PGI which validates this.

Just because people use something, a certain way, does not mean that that was their intended purpose.

Edited by Kunae, 03 October 2013 - 05:40 AM.

[Kunae]

Mogney, on 03 October 2013 - 05:13 AM, said:

Speed is still your best defense, either get more than 270 meters away, or just get behind the guy so he loses his lock. A light is not defenseless, its just that he has to use a different sort of defense than he does against lasers and ballistics.

Streaks also do not avoid collisions with other objects, you can use terrain and other hostile mechs to absorb that streak damage as well. Streaks are really easy to cause friendly fire damage with.

So yeah if you are a one-trick-pony when it comes to playing your light then I could see how you would think streaks are unfair and need to be removed. But if you can use cover and play it smart then it's just a different kind of challenge.

True, bigger mechs dont worry much about streaks, but they are green with envy that you can outrun a 50 LRM barrage.

So, L2P, couched in some blather is your rationalization?

I happen to understand how to play lights, and Jenners in particular. Kints also have lasers, and maintaining range beyond 270m while still shooting them effectively is rarely possible for long.

[Kunae]

Blacksoul1987, on 03 October 2013 - 05:12 AM, said:

what I wonder is how is it a 30 ton mech is less than 1/10th the size of a 100 ton mech are they constructing lights out of depleted uranium now? I saw a commando die next to a victor's foot and well It looked like the victor's foot is bigger. why is it that lately light mechs seem to have no fear of charging head first at an atlas? Why is it that when I return to my teammates when I got a little leg humper following me he will continue to pursue me even with everyone shooting at him? Light pilots don't seem to fear anything these days and I think the scaling is just completely out of whack.

It really depends on what Elo you're playing at.

At most Elo's, yes, a well played light can be a real terror. This is more due to the players being unable to hit faster moving targets with lasers and ballistics, than the mech itself.

At higher Elo's, where people have learned to hit fast targets, it's much more difficult.

For this to be fixed, we need knockdowns back in, not some no-skill crutch, which SSRMs are.

[Cybermech]

right, so I'm guna go get a kintaro and place down lots of streaks.
I have done the same with a spider with 1xerppc and will proceed not to use skill unlocks.
If it is in a great position on the field I will not need skill unlocks to preform.

[Mr 144]

Perception-wise...Lights bring this kind of thing on themselves...FotM HitReg/LagShield/Hitbox/ECM/Streaks/whatever insta-migration...coupled with the 4-man 'wolf-pack' mentality quite a goodly number of groups partake in....all breeds a lack of sympathy towards the mosquito swarm, no matter how based on facts the argument is. There is no other wieght class that has had a consistent go-to bugged easy-mode chassis/variant. You reap what you sow