64 replies to this topic

[Mr Andersson]

Since 'wall hack' (what many people called the seismic sensor) has been nerfed to the ground, why not also nerf 'invisibility mode' (ECM)?

It is ridiculous how a 1.5 ton piece of equipment can totally negate enemy weapon systems and, quite often, swing the balance of entire matches.

For anyone who fields an ECM capable mech, whether or not to equip ECM on it is not really a question. You equip it, end of story. Doesn't the fact that you automatically choose it point to it being unbalanced?

[IronChance]

No. Not every mech variant is ECM capable. If you didn't want to have ECM, you would have chosen to run some other variant. ECM is fine. It doesn't "totally negate" anything. You want to use lock-on weapons then you have to use BAP, tag, counter ECM, etc.

[Arnold J Rimmer]

True, IronChance, but every time I see an ECM-capable variant without ECM, I have a huge 'What were they thinking?!' moment.

[Draconis March]

IronChance, on 06 November 2013 - 11:17 AM, said:

No. Not every mech variant is ECM capable. If you didn't want to have ECM, you would have chosen to run some other variant. ECM is fine. It doesn't "totally negate" anything. You want to use lock-on weapons then you have to use BAP, tag, counter ECM, etc.

The fact that not every variant can run ECM isn't even an argument in favor of how they work right now being "fine."

[Mr Andersson]

IronChance, on 06 November 2013 - 11:17 AM, said:

You want to use lock-on weapons then you have to use BAP, tag, counter ECM, etc.

To negate ECM with TAG you have to point it at an enemy mech, thereby exposing yourself to enemy fire. And you can only "reveal" one enemy mech at a time, the rest remain hidden under the ECM umbrella.

To counter ECM with BAP you have to get freakishly close to the enemy mech carrying it, which is usually found in the middle of the bunch with its buddys all around. And if the enemy team has got two ECMs, then you have to get close with two BAPs. Good luck.

[Mr Andersson]

To clarify, the only thing I am against is the "umbrella" of invisibility that an ECM gives to all friendly mechs within 180m.

The 'active jamming' of enemy target locks by being close to them is absolutely fine. That's how it is supposed to work.

[Krivvan]

Mr Andersson, on 06 November 2013 - 11:36 AM, said:

To counter ECM with BAP you have to get freakishly close to the enemy mech carrying it, which is usually found in the middle of the bunch with its buddys all around.

The ECM is really only useful to counter Streaks anyways. LRMs are useless for reasons beyond even ECM. ECM is not going to help at all against a sniper.

[Bront]

ECM's balance is that it only runs on some mechs. I'm not saying that's good balance, but it's balance. In most cases, the ECM mech is inferior to the others in some way (Commando 2D hardpoints aren't that great, Cicada-3M is OK, DDC hardpoints aren't as good as the D, Only the Raven 3L is superior in almost every way), but yes, there only reason to run an ECM mech without ECM is if you can't afford it, and that should be solved in a few matches. It's lightweight, and gives a huge battle advantage.

[Mr Andersson]

Bront, on 06 November 2013 - 11:48 AM, said:

ECM's balance is that it only runs on some mechs. I'm not saying that's good balance, but it's balance. In most cases, the ECM mech is inferior to the others in some way (Commando 2D hardpoints aren't that great, Cicada-3M is OK, DDC hardpoints aren't as good as the D, Only the Raven 3L is superior in almost every way), but yes, there only reason to run an ECM mech without ECM is if you can't afford it, and that should be solved in a few matches. It's lightweight, and gives a huge battle advantage.

I agree with you on the Commando, but all other ECM capable mechs are far from the worst variant of their chassis, thus there is no real sacrifice made to get ECM. And, as you said yourself, the RVN-3L is the best of the Ravens.

[Boris The Spider]

Before ECM the raven was considered the worst light.

[Nryrony]

Why not simply limit the ECM effect to the mech that actually carries ECM instead of creating a zone buff/debuff.

[Bront]

Nryrony, on 06 November 2013 - 12:30 PM, said:

Why not simply limit the ECM effect to the mech that actually carries ECM instead of creating a zone buff/debuff.

Or force mechs to mount 2 to get the bubble? 3 tons and 4 slots is something that becomes worth considering/

[Voivode]

I'm going to disagree. A while back I might have agreed. Since they've altered the balance within a chassis that has an ECM variant, no.

With the other two Ravens coming up to 140kph with better hardpoints/JJ etc, the ECM variant only has ECM on them. The ECM capable spider and commando variants are about 20kph slower than the rest of their chassis' variants. With the ECM Cicada, the others have better hardpoint options. You could argue that the Atlas DDC doesn't really give anything up, I don't know. Seismic is just a module and doesn't require take for what it gives. It deserved the nerf it got.

Edited by Voivode, 06 November 2013 - 12:41 PM.

[Mudhutwarrior]

Still think PGI should give some sort of credit if you have more than one seismic. Its dead useless for most mechs now. Maybe they figure they will deel more consumables.

And ecm is fine. I only run one mech with it and not a lot. What they need to do is concentrate on better maps for roles.

Edited by Mudhutwarrior, 06 November 2013 - 12:42 PM.

[General Taskeen]

IronChance, on 06 November 2013 - 11:17 AM, said:

No. Not every mech variant is ECM capable. If you didn't want to have ECM, you would have chosen to run some other variant. ECM is fine. It doesn't "totally negate" anything. You want to use lock-on weapons then you have to use BAP, tag, counter ECM, etc.

That's a pretty bad argument. This game is based on TT, and even included "tt" variants.

You ever try to use a Mech with 2xLRM15's and nothing else? Didn't think so. You can't, because of the arbitrary balance in the game that shuts off the weapon. It was never that way in any previous Mech Warrior game. And yeah I know in that example if anyone gets close to you, you are boned anyways, but why stop that player from using their simple build that should be able to fire at an ECM Mech in their LOS?

Guess what - Its not Balanced.

Edited by General Taskeen, 06 November 2013 - 12:41 PM.

[MustrumRidcully]

Bront, on 06 November 2013 - 11:48 AM, said:

ECM's balance is that it only runs on some mechs. I'm not saying that's good balance, but it's balance. In most cases, the ECM mech is inferior to the others in some way (Commando 2D hardpoints aren't that great, Cicada-3M is OK, DDC hardpoints aren't as good as the D, Only the Raven 3L is superior in almost every way), but yes, there only reason to run an ECM mech without ECM is if you can't afford it, and that should be solved in a few matches. It's lightweight, and gives a huge battle advantage.

No, it isn't balance.
"Oh, yeah, magic is overpowered, but only wizards can do it!"

ECM has been neutered a great deal indirectly, but I think the fundamental problem is still the same, and there is no solution to it unless something fundamental also changes. ANd I think that has a lot to do with how missiles and target locking functions. TT LRMs don't get blocked by ECM, if they would, ECM would most likely not be a 1.5 ton item with no additional cost. It was a counter to other advanced gear (ARTEMIS etc.), for which it was reasonably priced at 1.5 tons.
ANd LRMs in the current form have caused us a lot of problems already.

IMO, indirect fire an direct fire should be seperated into very different firing modes for LRMs. Direct Fire should work simply based on line of sight. (I would perhaps have a kind of locking mode in that you must train your targeting reticule on the target, and depending on how well you did, the LRMs will fly up and track the target afterwards and hit where you aimed at. IN direct fire, LRMs would fire faster, but straight paths, while in indirect mode, they'd would use an arc - but now a spotter that does the locking instead of the original gunner. The indirectly fired missiles might be affected by ECM and be generally less precise, with modules boosting the precision, avaialble both to spotters and gunners.)

[KinLuu]

Best light currently: JR7-F
ECM? Nope.

Best medium currently: SHD-whatevs
ECM? Nope.

Best heavy currently: CTF-3D
ECM? Nope.

Best assault currently, and best ingame: HGN-733C
ECM? Nope.

Clearly, ECM is horribly overpowered.

[Sandpit]

misleading title much?

[KharnZor]

Oh look. A stealth ecm nerf thread.


You should feel bad OP.

[Lykaon]

IronChance, on 06 November 2013 - 11:17 AM, said:

No. Not every mech variant is ECM capable. If you didn't want to have ECM, you would have chosen to run some other variant. ECM is fine. It doesn't "totally negate" anything. You want to use lock-on weapons then you have to use BAP, tag, counter ECM, etc.

ECM totally negates quite a bit.

SSRM locks
LRM locks
Artemis
Sensor detection at ranges beyond 25% of max sensor range
And a bunch of other things I don't care to mention.

Just because bug spray exists it doesn't mean bugs don't bite.It means you need to have spray or get bitten.

This means that the existence of the over featured ECM requires a tonnage and crit tax on other mechs in the form of the neccessity of loading anti ECM tools.1.5 tons for a BAP on a Jenner so they can even think about using streaks and being an effective recon platform means Some other potentialy vital feature was dropped just to accomidate the ECM meta.

BAP? are you seriously saying that a counter ECM tool that needs to get within 150m of a hostile ECM is an effective counter when that ECM projects a bubble of sensor invisability for all friendlies within 180..This sensor jamming reduces sensor detection ranges to 200m.By the time a friendly BAP gets within counter range of a hostile ECM it's more than likely to late an entire enemy force has already marched withing fistfugging range of your team all the while immune to missiles and undetected.

Another concideration is ECM is a rule breaker and changer.A new player knows that enemy mechs show on the HUD in red brackets (not so with ECM) A new player knows how to get a missile lock (doesn't work with ECM without TAG/BAP etc) A new player has an expectation of how their mech sensors will work (ECM changes that )
Once a new player has learned how the game works they need to learn how the game works with ECM deployed and everyone who has played a while can attest a battlefield with ECM means you must play differently.

ECM is the end all be all information warfare tool.It over shadows every other game feature in this regard.ECM is also magnified by a lack of communication.Since nearly all passive data transmition can be suppressed with ECM players not using VOIP (Puggies) lack an important tool for countering ECM the ability to convey intel via voice.


And in closing ECM in it's current state impedes development of an engaging E-war mechanic that incorperates the potential of all of our support electronics.At this stage so much has been shelved or under developed (NARC/Command console) or coopted into ECM as counter measures (BAP/TAG) that most of the electronics have not been given enough development.