223 replies to this topic

[Wintersdark]

Koniving, on 07 October 2013 - 08:22 PM, said:

A Marauder could legally be made quite easily. It'd need only minor changes to the overall design. For example the turret mounted on the left or right torso instead of the center is an easy fix (and preferable considering). The arms would most likely be very similar to the Cataphract. Overall the body would be blockier with armored plating.

I don't think anyone would complain if the arms did not hang below the knees as often depicted (low-hanging arm complaints, anyone?) so there is that, too.

The problem isn't whether or not you can make it "legally", because this is a matter of intellectual property and as such is extremely convoluted. Fair Use and similar concepts have guidelines but not hard and fast rules, and something is not infringing or not until it's been addressed in court. It doesn't matter if the art PGI makes is clearly sufficiently different, even if it's different enough that they could be certain of winning a court case. It doesn't even matter if the actual ownership of the rights is in question!

All Harmony Gold needs to do is sue. They have vast resources compared to PGI. If they sued, they would only need to delay the court case and it would financially ruin PGI, even if eventually PGI won.

PGI understands this, and HG knows PGI does. Thus, the mere threat of a lawsuit ends the chances of that ever happening. HG has already established it's willing to file such lawsuits at the drop of a hat and indeed, they did that specifically for this sort of eventuality. Now, the mere threat of legal action is enough to win, and not just win but essentially extort settlement money from their victims. If HG sued PGI, PGI would likely have to settle even if they knew they were in the right, because the cost of doing so would be less than the ruinous cost of a protracted legal battle. And you can rest assured that the settlement amount would be carefully calculated to be high enough to be profitable for HG and low enough to be less than the cost of the resulting court case to PGI.

If PGI does go ahead, makes a marauder that does look sufficiently different? HG sues. Lets say PGI fights it out, throws a couple hundred grand to the lawyersin the trash, and wins. PGI cannot countersue for costs, because HG was merely attempting to protect it's IP. It did, legally speaking, nothing wrong. PGI can use the marauder, but is still enormously in the hole. This is, literally, the best case scenario.

Edited by Wintersdark, 08 October 2013 - 01:24 AM.

[Jack Gallows]

I think they don't want to step in the mess, as..

Quote

Harmony Gold’s license for Macross came from Tatsunoko Production, but Japanese courts ruled that it was Studio Nue (creators of the series) that controls the Macross intellectual property. The license Tatsunoko was given was for international distribution outside Japan only, and does not allow them to control the intellectual property

http://kotaku.com/59...nearly-15-years

It's convoluted, should just be happy that we saw redesigns of what we have.

I hope for those still playing the game have adequate time to buy the packs they want. Even if I don't play I'm still interested in seeing new 'mech concept art as the art design in MW:O is stellar.

Edited by Jack Gallows, 08 October 2013 - 04:25 AM.

[Mr Blonde]

What is it that makes HG so huge and powerful, and so recalcitrant? I have never even heard of them, other than their being a-holes about Battletech licensing. Wouldn't they benefit from BT developers using their designs in new games, rather than just sitting on them? Doesn't make sense to me from a business standpoint for HG. They would get a piece of MWO, PGI could sell Marauders and Warhammers for MC only (at $100 apiece) and people would probably line up to buy them. HG would get a cut of each one. Seems like a no-brainer to me.

[Heffay]

Mr Blonde, on 08 October 2013 - 04:58 AM, said:

Seems like a no-brainer to me.

I think you put the hammer on the nail there.

[Nehkrosis]

when is the last date for purchases?

[Ngamok]

soarra, on 05 October 2013 - 12:31 PM, said:

like this?

You are quite the dude.

[Viper69]

I didnt buy it but I can respect them for telling people, **** or get off the pot with your refunds because no crying for them later like the people did with the founder packs. I am very dissatisfied with the game that is no secret but I respect them for giving people a hard date.

[SgtMaster]

well,

i agree, we have just passed launch,
so for the influx of new players, i hope the Phoenix Project sale remains after delivery.

And maybe some like myself, are waiting for customer reviews about the package to see if it is worth the purchase.

And maybe, when people see the pretty mechs on the battlefield, that will incite them to buy.

Edited by SgtMaster, 08 October 2013 - 06:14 AM.

[SgtMaster]

Wintersdark, on 08 October 2013 - 01:23 AM, said:

[/size]
The problem isn't whether or not you can make it "legally", because this is a matter of intellectual property and as such is extremely convoluted. Fair Use and similar concepts have guidelines but not hard and fast rules, and something is not infringing or not until it's been addressed in court. It doesn't matter if the art PGI makes is clearly sufficiently different, even if it's different enough that they could be certain of winning a court case. It doesn't even matter if the actual ownership of the rights is in question!

All Harmony Gold needs to do is sue. They have vast resources compared to PGI. If they sued, they would only need to delay the court case and it would financially ruin PGI, even if eventually PGI won.

PGI understands this, and HG knows PGI does. Thus, the mere threat of a lawsuit ends the chances of that ever happening. HG has already established it's willing to file such lawsuits at the drop of a hat and indeed, they did that specifically for this sort of eventuality. Now, the mere threat of legal action is enough to win, and not just win but essentially extort settlement money from their victims. If HG sued PGI, PGI would likely have to settle even if they knew they were in the right, because the cost of doing so would be less than the ruinous cost of a protracted legal battle. And you can rest assured that the settlement amount would be carefully calculated to be high enough to be profitable for HG and low enough to be less than the cost of the resulting court case to PGI.

If PGI does go ahead, makes a marauder that does look sufficiently different? HG sues. Lets say PGI fights it out, throws a couple hundred grand to the lawyersin the trash, and wins. PGI cannot countersue for costs, because HG was merely attempting to protect it's IP. It did, legally speaking, nothing wrong. PGI can use the marauder, but is still enormously in the hole. This is, literally, the best case scenario.

the easiest solution is to give the fanbase "MOD TOOLS"..
make their own mod, mechs/ maps for free,
the player base would grow, PGI makes money for the game, not the mechs...
Everyone wins, except for HG...

[MechFrog1]

SgtMaster, on 08 October 2013 - 06:14 AM, said:

well,

i agree, we have just passed launch,
so for the influx of new players, i hope the Phoenix Project sale remains after delivery.

And maybe some like myself, are waiting for customer reviews about the package to see if it is worth the purchase.

And maybe, when people see the pretty mechs on the battlefield, that will incite them to buy.

It's will be nice to see all these new players in game. It will definitely beats the pants off of seeing the same 100 people in every match because of Elo heck. Any day now, right?

[Lan Pyrelight]

SgtMaster, on 08 October 2013 - 06:23 AM, said:

the easiest solution is to give the fanbase "MOD TOOLS"..
make their own mod, mechs/ maps for free,
the player base would grow, PGI makes money for the game, not the mechs...
Everyone wins, except for HG...

Not really. How would mods work in an online only environment? You'd have to code in hitboxes, mount positions which would only be present on your machine. Then you'd need some way to get that to other people in the persistent game.

The only way I forsee mods working is if we are given the option of playing private servers (similar to Star Citizen's plan) where we have full control. Otherwise, I don't think mod tools are something that will work in the near future. Unless all the mod really does is change the "look" of the mech but then you get into problems for people wondering where the hell the hitbox is if the model is vastly different from the model you change.

[Wintersdark]

SgtMaster, on 08 October 2013 - 06:23 AM, said:

the easiest solution is to give the fanbase "MOD TOOLS"..
make their own mod, mechs/ maps for free,
the player base would grow, PGI makes money for the game, not the mechs...
Everyone wins, except for HG...

Until HG decides to sue a fan for infringing on their IP with a fan designed mech. And PGI for hosting/using it. Or legal issues arise from including fan content in their promotional materials (say, a promo screenshot). Or balance issues happen because of borked fan content.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a HUGE fan of modding. However, for an active, commercial online game user content is a very complex thing to get into. You can't just slap it on and call it a day - there's a lot of legal questions, so lots of paper that needs to be drafted, at high expense from lawyers, staff that's needed to test and vet content,etc.

It can be done. Some games do it. But those games are designed around that fan made content from the start. It's not an easy thing to add later.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Wintersdark, on 08 October 2013 - 08:22 AM, said:

Until HG decides to sue a fan for infringing on their IP with a fan designed mech. And PGI for hosting/using it. Or legal issues arise from including fan content in their promotional materials (say, a promo screenshot). Or balance issues happen because of borked fan content.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a HUGE fan of modding. However, for an active, commercial online game user content is a very complex thing to get into. You can't just slap it on and call it a day - there's a lot of legal questions, so lots of paper that needs to be drafted, at high expense from lawyers, staff that's needed to test and vet content,etc.

It can be done. Some games do it. But those games are designed around that fan made content from the start. It's not an easy thing to add later.

Yeah, I can imagine how many Fan-Created models would be rejected due to infringement on others' IP. Anything created by fans would have to be vetted by PGI and IGP, and that means cross-referencing it against all known SciFi IP to make sure they don't accidentally allow some Fan-made content that rips off of StarCraft or something like that.

[GRIMM11]

I requested my refund but did not get any confirmation. Not happy with the direction this game is taking.

[Wintersdark]

Prosperity Park, on 08 October 2013 - 08:39 AM, said:

Yeah, I can imagine how many Fan-Created models would be rejected due to infringement on others' IP. Anything created by fans would have to be vetted by PGI and IGP, and that means cross-referencing it against all known SciFi IP to make sure they don't accidentally allow some Fan-made content that rips off of StarCraft or something like that.

Exactly. This would require staff devoted to it - as you'd get more and more fan content. And it's still risky - as I said in my previous post, there are not hard and fast rules about what is and is not infringing, it's open until decided in court. So, PGI would have to basically just say No outright to anything that even very remotely resembles any existing IP. That'd be almost everything submitted.

It's not the same as modding a single player game. Most IP holders don't really care if you've got, say, Battlestar Galactica ships in X3: Terran Conflict, because no money is being made there and the overall number of people using those mods is actually pretty small.

It's a very, very different matter when you get to a commercial, for-profit online game. Player created mods in Mechwarrior Online could be seen by, from the IP holders view, over a million players. See active player counts, and even if grossly inaccurate, this the the number the lawyers will use. They'll see that PGI is making money, and their content is being used. Then we get the HG situation, where it's win-win to sue: you get settlement money by default, basically. And most rightsholders of content people would be putting in (or approximating; you only need to loosely resemble the source material to be able to sue) will have pockets deep enough to walk all over PGI.

And that's not even beginning to get into quality control and whatnot.

User content is awesome, and I wish we could do it. But it's not likely to happen, for the above reasons. It'd just cost too much to do right.

With that said, user decals could happen - its a lot easier to vet small images, and you can automate a lot of the process (including quality control).

[Bishop Steiner]

Prosperity Park, on 08 October 2013 - 08:39 AM, said:

Yeah, I can imagine how many Fan-Created models would be rejected due to infringement on others' IP. Anything created by fans would have to be vetted by PGI and IGP, and that means cross-referencing it against all known SciFi IP to make sure they don't accidentally allow some Fan-made content that rips off of StarCraft or something like that.

especially since, let's face it, most of us fans are not as creative or imaginative as we want to believe.

[Wintersdark]

Bishop Steiner, on 08 October 2013 - 09:28 AM, said:

especially since, let's face it, most of us fans are not as creative or imaginative as we want to believe.

I play a hell of a lot of games with modding communities (Elder scrolls games, X games, etc) and unfortunately this is often the case. Most of the best user created mods are modified versions of other things as opposed to entirely new stuff. Still a lot of amazing work, but there's very little genuinely original content.

[Bishop Steiner]

Wintersdark, on 08 October 2013 - 09:58 AM, said:

I play a hell of a lot of games with modding communities (Elder scrolls games, X games, etc) and unfortunately this is often the case. Most of the best user created mods are modified versions of other things as opposed to entirely new stuff. Still a lot of amazing work, but there's very little genuinely original content.

yup. I freely admit that even my "best" stuff is usually inspired by something else. Is my KGC different enough to be legally free? Probably. But it's still pretty plainly inspired by the King Crab. And so it is with most of what we see. I gotta give Loose credit. While the execution was often dismal, the designs have oddly lasted, since 90% of the fan art around here is thinly redesigned versions of his stuff.

[Koniving]

Looking back at this... I know why I don't like that Marauder design which is odd because I like the legs and I like the minor details.

It's because the Marauder is a short mech with a long profile... this is a taller mech with an average profile.

Edited by Koniving, 08 October 2013 - 10:32 AM.

[CyclonerM]

Koniving, on 08 October 2013 - 10:31 AM, said:

Looking back at this... I know why I don't like that Marauder design which is odd because I like the legs and I like the minor details.

It's because the Marauder is a short mech with a long profile... this is a taller mech with an average profile.

Is that a Marauder?! It looks like more a Supernova..