127 replies to this topic

[GreyGriffin]

I love the clans.

I love their lore, I love their 'mechs, I love their attempts to reconcile the ravings of a mad visionary with the exemplified ideal of one of the greatest heroes of the inner sphere. I love how the different clans have come to terms with Nicholas' teachings in different ways, and how their struggle has bled over into the Spheres. I love how they shook the sphere to its foundations, but ultimately, those who ventured into it were forced to compromise with it and its way of life, even while they tried to keep their identities.

As a "SNOW RAVEN 4 LIFE," and a card-carrying member of the Unkindness, I think it's important for me to explain all of this to highlight the content of my argument - 3025 is the right year.

SO much of the universe's history and the mindset of the gameplay are rooted in the late succession wars that ignoring that period of time is criminal. The importance of salvage, the mercenary and mechwarrior culture, and the nature of limited warfare are ingraned in that era where the states were too exhausted to move against each other in force.

Throwing the Clan Invasion into the mix right away robs both factions - Clan and Inner Sphere - of much of their gravity. Players don't have time to become accustomed to the Inner Sphere and its nature and its plight, before it is so roundly devastated. There is no sense of normality to break. The Clans, in turn, lose a lot of their mystery and impact, as players don't see the world as it was before the invaders come and break it in half, and don't have a chance to contrast their cultures against what they already know.

Advancing the game rapidly to the "present," through the Jihad and to the beginning of the Dark Ages, could be done in stages, each representing an expansion.

As for the tech argument, you could at the very least have Succession War servers, where only level 1 tech is allowed for balance purposes, but I think presenting the narrative arc of battletech is a bigger concern, IMO. People don't give its space operatic qualities enough credit, and skipping to the "good part" is a good way to squander that opportunity.

Alternately, you could look at (gasp) World of Warcraft as an example. Each zone of progression represents a block of time as your character grows and advances. The events of Outlands/Burning Crusade happen after vanilla WoW, and the events of Northrend/Lich King directly follow Outlands/BC. Allowing the player to progress through these "areas" would at least give them a sense of the world.

[Threat Doc]

Jaegerwolf, on 11 November 2011 - 07:22 PM, said:

Did they ever give a reason WHY they moved the timeline up? I understand they want to have gametime match real time (1 year real world + 1 in game) but don't see any mention of why then went to 3048 instead of staying at 3015. I actually think the earlier year would have been more interesting as it hasn't been covered in a game before.

I know there's a large fan base for the Clans, but not sure if trying to appease them is going to be worth the balancing issues

Agreed, most definitely.

Jaroth Winson, on 11 November 2011 - 08:09 PM, said:

If they set it to 3015 or even 3025 & 1 day in RL is 1 day in the game we would have a LONG wait to get to the clan invasion. I suspect that is why they decided to go 3049. Just my two cents.

Yeah, but that's what I was saying in my earlier post... Do the end of the 3rd and the totality of the 4th Succession War, then JUMP to the War of '39, and then JUMP to the Clan Invasion. Talk about game longevity.

I think starting right at the beginning of the Clan Invasion might be a mistake, though, because there WILL be all manner of balance issues. Still, if the time is set, the time is set, I'll deal.

[Threat Doc]

GreyGriffin, I am out of likes for today, so I thought I'd better post and tell you how much I love your reasoning. You are dead on ***** accurate, and that's a far better way to couch the argument. Nicely done.

[Solomon K Chapman]

Some of that spice is the value of Lostech or founding a cache of star league era mechs. The marik civil wars, wolf's dragoons a mysterious mech unit arriving in the inner sphere from the periphery. The list and history goes on, we will miss some much.

[Rogal Dorn]

I'm just glad to see this tech level even with the Helm Core tech, instead of having heavy laser, x-pulse lasers, rotary ac, heavy/light gauss, snub-nose ppc, mrm, rockets, all the later stuff. too much to think about. Keep it simple, no reson to have 90 different weapons to choose from.

[Halfinax]

Kay Wolf, on 11 November 2011 - 08:16 PM, said:

Agreed, most definitely.

Yeah, but that's what I was saying in my earlier post... Do the end of the 3rd and the totality of the 4th Succession War, then JUMP to the War of '39, and then JUMP to the Clan Invasion. Talk about game longevity.

I think starting right at the beginning of the Clan Invasion might be a mistake, though, because there WILL be all manner of balance issues. Still, if the time is set, the time is set, I'll deal.

The game itself is unlikely to last long enough (if we start at 3015) to get to a lot of the content that many users will be looking forward to. By having the opening just prior to the Clan invasions they actually open up the door for future titles. We could even see good demand for pre-invasion games since players that are otherwise unfamiliar with Battletech lore would be introduced to the universe as it existed prior to the clan invasions. I think the developers have chosen a perfect timeline for rebooting and reintroducing the series to many people that have never experienced it before. I don't think I could be happier with the time frame they've chosen, and I'm pretty hardcore 3rd succesion wars.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Halfinax, on 11 November 2011 - 08:10 PM, said:

I don't think you are going to see "raids" this isn't an MMORPG. It is a team based Multiplayer battle system from what the devs have described

I suspect if we do see Clans in at launch it is going to be more along the lines of ISNews Updates rather than player usable content. The clan invasion doesn't officially start until March of 3050 which would be 7-8 months after initial launch. We would see very limited Clan activity as the developers seem to be mostly staying away from periphery material and focusing mostly on core IS worlds. The first sign of Clan activity I am aware of is pretty vague "The Kell Hounds while hunting a pirate faction on The Rock confronted an unknown force and were defeated."

I wouldn't assume Clans being playable until Wave 1 which is when they begin to hit the core-ward worlds on their path to Terra. At this point I assume the Devs will have some kind of give and take for players to join the clan.

Edit: For clarification the "At this point I assume the Devs will have some kind of give and take for players to join the clan." is pure speculation on my part.

Clan Wolf was in the IS in 3049 though. (technically)

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 11 November 2011 - 08:31 PM.

[Halfinax]

Jaroth Winson, on 11 November 2011 - 08:31 PM, said:

Clan Wolf was in the IS in 3049 though. (technically)

Hehe, yes, I acknowledged this with The Rock (This is Clan Wolf in Aug. 3049). The Wolf's Dragoons(3005) don't bring the super advanced tech that comes with the primary invasion of the Clans in 3050 though.

Edit: Added in specific month and date of The Rock encounter.

Edited by Halfinax, 11 November 2011 - 08:36 PM.

[rollermint]

Pretty tired of the same tired whines against the Clans but it cannot be denied that there is a significant resentment against the inclusion of Clans (alongside those who are pro-clans, i must add).

Doing one or the other is going to upset one of these factions so I would suggest the Devs just push back the in-game launch date from 3049 to 3048. Thats two years of non-clan involvement, enough time for the pure Spheroids to have their fun, more time for Devs to balance issues with the inevitable Clan invasion patch and by 2014, folks would probably be more receptive of the Clans in-game.

[Halfinax]

rollermint, on 11 November 2011 - 09:07 PM, said:

Pretty tired of the same tired whines against the Clans but it cannot be denied that there is a significant resentment against the inclusion of Clans (alongside those who are pro-clans, i must add).

Doing one or the other is going to upset one of these factions so I would suggest the Devs just push back the in-game launch date from 3049 to 3048. Thats two years of non-clan involvement, enough time for the pure Spheroids to have their fun, more time for Devs to balance issues with the inevitable Clan invasion patch and by 2014, folks would probably be more receptive of the Clans in-game.

I suspect the Devs already have some iteration of the BV system ready for prime time, and are really only using the delay between the official Clan invasion and launch date to help reduce the mass exodus from IS houses/mercs to the Clans. This I've already stated just a couple of posts above this.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Then as we did when the Crusaders & the Wardens were going at it, how about a compromise?

Start off the time before the Clan Invasion but give the player 2 options:

1. Start in the Inner Sphere & build up a character from there. 4th Succession War or whatever

2. Start in the Pentagon Worlds, probably at the birth of the Clans or Operation Klondike

This way both sets of players are sated & by the time the clan invasion rolls around the player has built up their character to a decent level & can choose to continue to build up said character at the time of the invasion & probably earn some bonuses for sticking with the character for that length of time or switch over to the other side at the time of the invasion but obviously this will be with a brand new slate.

e.g. You are Yoshi Takeda, a citizen of the Draconis Combine. You have just turned 18 & have a promising future ahead of you. You receive news that your application to the DCMS has been accepted & you will begin your training as a mechwarrior. Probably at the end or just near the end of your training, the 4th Succession War begins. During training you would have ranked up a bit, probably a Level 5 character & you embark on your first mission with an active unit.

OR

You are Alan of Clan Wolf. You have lasted to the end of your sibko training with only a few others & are about to take your "Blooding". You rank up with each position you win by the kills you get in your ToP. As you get placed into an active unit, the ilKhan announces that Operation Klondike will begin shortly. Your future is bright; you will be placed in a unit that will see a lot of action. Honor & glory can be yours, offering you opportunities to get promoted & also to gain a Bloodname.

Both sets of players have learned to battle pretty much the same foe for a time: one Great House fighting each other & one Clan fighting another.

Jump to the invasion, rank up a bit for that & then leave how the character progresses, up to the player while facing these new enemies.

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 11 November 2011 - 09:53 PM.

[Hodo]

rollermint, on 11 November 2011 - 09:07 PM, said:

Pretty tired of the same tired whines against the Clans but it cannot be denied that there is a significant resentment against the inclusion of Clans (alongside those who are pro-clans, i must add).

Doing one or the other is going to upset one of these factions so I would suggest the Devs just push back the in-game launch date from 3049 to 3048. Thats two years of non-clan involvement, enough time for the pure Spheroids to have their fun, more time for Devs to balance issues with the inevitable Clan invasion patch and by 2014, folks would probably be more receptive of the Clans in-game.

And I already know now, I will be banned for abuse of clan players in game. My goal is to make it as unfun as possible for them. I dont just hate the clans, I LOATH the clans.

DCMS member since 1986.

[GreyGriffin]

Hodo, on 11 November 2011 - 11:47 PM, said:

And I already know now, I will be banned for abuse of clan players in game. My goal is to make it as unfun as possible for them. I dont just hate the clans, I LOATH the clans.

DCMS member since 1986.

PsyOps are very UnClanlike.

But seriously, lighten up. There are people who like the clans as a faction despite them having shootier lasers. Feel free to dislike, but taking it to the level of abuse just puts a bad face on the Battletech fandom - the curmudgeonly grognard who wishes he was playing SFB with an abacus.

[Thomas Hogarth]

Personally, I think War of 3039 is a fantastic starting point. Lots of prototype equipment around, even some advanced tech in series production, a new direction in warfare.

[Iron Horse]

Interesting thread...

I agree with Grey Griffin's main points. Well said!

Also, Jaroth - I think there's still many uses for your ideas without essentially dividing the game into separate servers.

I believe there are ways to balance the Clans through things like more expensive 'mechs, less access to equipment, etc., etc. to add a downside for the relative upside of always having OP units. I even toyed with the idea of having clans drop with one less unit every match, but ultimately I don't think this would be as fun (ideally we would see 5 on 4's (star vs. lance), with some kind of balance based on overall skill levels, but I digress).

Another thing which hasn't been announced yet by the Devs which I hope happens is there may be some penalty for Clanners not fighting by clan rules (i.e. firing at someone else's target before being fired on, etc.). This may also help restore some of the balance that has been squandered by the decidedly "shootier" previous Mechwarrior games.

I just want to also mention that I love the idea they we don't immediately start with the Clans. As Grey Griffin pointed out their better tech makes the IS 'mechs look weaker by comparison. By starting in the 3048 timeline we get to familiarize ourselves with the richness of Piranha's Inner Sphere before the game really heats up with the introduction of the Clans. (Sorry if I'm reiterating Grey Griffin's points here, but they're worth restating).

Edited by Iron Horse, 12 November 2011 - 02:14 AM.

[Iron Horse]

Jaroth Winson, on 11 November 2011 - 08:31 PM, said:

Clan Wolf was in the IS in 3049 though. (technically)

Excellent point! Hopefully the Devs address this somehow!

How sweet would it be if you could somehow join ComStar and get access to their rare hawtness too?

[Jaroth Corbett]

This idea of paying more for Clan tech does not sit well for me. If the devs want to stick to the lore as they claim they have then do so. The IS way of getting things is either buying it or salvaging it from off the battlefield. The Clan way = fight for it. All Clansmen should start off in lights mechs. The better you perform gives you the option to move to a higher chassis & that in itself should be limited. Clan light mechs range from 25-35 tons. When you reach the point that medium mechs become unlocked it should not be a matter of, "Well done sport, here are the medium mechs. Have at it!"

If you perform well enough in the light mechs, the medium mechs should be unlocked but by weight. So if I just got the mediums unlocked I should only have access to the Arctic Wolf which is 40 tons (or the Reaver if the devs allow it). If I continue to perform well, I could then be bumped up to an Ice Ferret, a Gesu, a Shadow Cat or an Ursus which are 45 tons. From there....................well you get the picture.

Of course there should always be the option of a Trial of Possession. If you do not want to wait to rank up, what do we do here?????????????? ooooooo it was just on the tip of my toungue, oh right, fight for it! A Trial of Possession should not be limited to interClan but should also include intraClan. If the 11th Battle Cluster sees that the 13th Battle Cluster has something they could use, they should be able to Trial for it. Be it higher chassis mechs or even a promising pilot who they think can fit in well with their unit. This not only helps Clansmen acquire new stuff but it keeps the lore alive by highlighting the fact that while you can fight to get what you want, you must also fight to keep it.

Edited by Jaroth Winson, 12 November 2011 - 02:40 AM.

[Starkiller]

Two things:

1. On 20 August 3028, Prince Hanse Davion and Archon-Desiginate Melissa Steiner were wed on Tera along with all the publically official signings of the Federated Commonwealth Document. This created the FedCom, albeit not in name until an heir was produced, and Prince Hanse Davions wedding toast to his bride "I give to you the Capellan Confederation" as simulatneously Davion troops crossed the border and assaulted 9 Capellan worlds. This signaled the beggining of the 4th Succession War, it started in 3028 not 3030.

2. We are already going backwards according to the MW series anyhow no matter how you look at it, they are all post Clan Invasion after MW2, so it really does not matter technically when we start. There should be different servers or start the timeline sooner than 3049 in my opinion.

Ok 3. Those that do not want the Clans around are fooling themselves, we have Jordan Weisman to thank for the Clans to begin with, not his dad and his dad is dead and Jordan owns the franchise. He will be using this as a means to getting a new audience to buy TT and Clix, it is a marketing ploy by him. As a former Marauder and FASA employee I recognize his startegies well.

Also, why would an Inner Sphere Mech Warrior not want to make the Clanners regret their decison to invade the Inner Sphere? I will be doing the same and making every bit of ground they are on in the Inner Sphere absolute misery for the Tubies.

Edited by Starkiller, 12 November 2011 - 05:04 AM.

[Korbyn McColl]

While I wouldn't complain about a 3025 setting (although 3015 sounded better), let's look at a few potential problems:

1- Easily half of the MW fanbase consider themselves Clanners. You'd be leaving them out of MWO. At least with the current setting the Clanners will be able to pull a Wolves Dragoons and create a "secretly Clanner" merc unit and hold out hope for eventually being able to play as real Clanners.

2- Quite a few of the mechs that appear in previous incarnations of the MW CRPGs aren't around in 3025, and you risk alienating more players by dropping their "favorite mech" from the game.

3- Balance issues are easily remedied by applying unit values, but it's quite possible the only way to acquire Clan mech and tech will be to salvage it after the Clan invasions begin. As such, yes, eventually everyone will be upgrading to Clan tech. But if this game has some PvE aspect (which it's sounding like it will), such tech will eventually be available to everyone. Imagine, though, putting that Clan ERPPC you salvaged onto your mech only to lose it in your very next drop...Or, instead, choosing to reverse engineer that Clan ERPPC and instead develop the IS equivalent of the ERPPC, unlocking it in your MechLab for all of your mechs. And the next time you get a Clan ERPPC to drop you can equip it knowing that, worst case scenario, you'll have to stick the IS version in again should you lose it. Same thing applies to salvaged mechs. You salvaged a Stone Rhino? Awesome. Do you really want to take that into this drop and risk losing it for good?

Personally, I hope we'll see salvage become an integral part of this game. It was essential to the PnP BT/MW games and it also played a major role in the single player campaigns in MW4, so it's not a foreign concept to anyone familiar with the franchise.

Edited by devil man, 12 November 2011 - 05:36 AM.

[rollermint]

Hodo, on 11 November 2011 - 11:47 PM, said:

And I already know now, I will be banned for abuse of clan players in game. My goal is to make it as unfun as possible for them. I dont just hate the clans, I LOATH the clans. DCMS member since 1986.

That is a seriously f***** up attitude you have there.

Its unfortunate that you haven't grasp the meaning of maturity since 1986.

Edited by rollermint, 12 November 2011 - 07:10 AM.