127 replies to this topic

[Oppi]

Wolvers, on 11 November 2011 - 07:51 PM, said:

In so far as the balance re IS vs Clans, it is a bit of a concern, the thing that holds the Clans back mostly, Zellbrigen, might be hard to implement.

I've read things like this many times now, and I just have to clarify something I think most people here are misunderstanding :

Zellbrigen ist not the thing, that held the clans back in the lore. Clan Tech is superior to Inner Sphere tech, which is why in an according-to-Zellbrigen 1on1 of a Clanner versus an IS Pilot, the Clanner is clearly in the better position. If the Inner Sphere pilots had used a similar honor code as the Clans, and fought them 1on1, Tukayyid would never had happened the way it has.
The huge advantage of the IS was, that the Clanners were mostly unable to adapt to an enemy, who did not give a sh*t about their honor and was used to focusing the fire of a whole lance on a single enemy when necessary. Even though Zellbrigen allowed them to do so themselves as soon as the enemy broke the rules, they were unable to "switch" and fight back in an equal way. One could call it a morale disadvantage.

So even if they hardcoded Zellbrigen into the game (by such a ridiculous thing as your weapons not firing when you try to break the rules), it would not at all balance it. The Players piloting the Clan mechs won't be real Clan warriors, they'll be people like you and me, perhaps used to playing first person shooters and beating up lonely enemies together with several of their own teammates. As soon as one IS pilot broke Zellbrigen, they would be able to do so themselves, and there would be no disadvantage at all.

Long story short : The Clans were brought down in the lore, because their culture made them unable to adapt to the fighting style of the Inner Sphere !
One cannot implement that into a game, so there is no way to balance the clans other than outnumber them 2on1 or 3on2 or making their weapons only renamed versions of the IS ones (so their tech advantage wouldn't be there any longer). In fact they even did that in the novels. When there was a trial, it was always a company versus a binary or something like that.

Edited by Oppi, 12 November 2011 - 07:44 AM.

[feor]

THe problem, I'll say again, is that they don't only care about the hardcore Battletech fanbase. In fact they CAN'T care only about the hardcore Battletech fanbase.

This is a free to play game. This means that, unless they start selling advertisement space in game (which I doubt anyone wants), they need to have as many people playing as possible. And as much as battletech fans might not like it, the average gamer on the street equates the Mechwarrior franchise with the Mad Cat. It's been on the cover of the prime mechwarrior games since MW2. (as the posterboy in MW2 & 3, and in the background of MW4:vengence)

To say to a random player "oh, yeah, this is a mechwarrior game, but because we want you to learn the story of the boardgame it's based on we're taking away all the stuff you normally associate with the mechwarrior franchise and putting you in an era where you'd be lucky to see 4 mechs in your entire life, never mind a 16 on 16 battle" is pretty much going to turn them off the game immediately.

Which means that even if they play, they aren't going to play for long, which means they won't spend money in Piranha's in-game store, which means the game will fail and be shut down and none of us will get to play.

However, if they say "oh yeah, all that clan stuff is there, but you'll have to play the PvE stuff to the end-game in order to face them in any reasonable numbers and earn salvage from them." that will get people to play, and it will get people to play for awhile, as they will have a goal to work towards.

Therefore, I find myself fully supporting letting us only play as Inner Sphere characters, at least until the first expansion is out, but setting it right at the dawn of the clan invasion, so that as we "level up" the Houses start sending us to the coreward edge of the sphere to face these new powerful adversaries.

[Kenichero]

If they start before the clans invade and their tech and mechs arn't in the game yet, is anyone really NOT going to buy the game? I know everyone wants to get what they want but lets face it, when the game hits the shelf, everyone talking on these forums is going to play it. Sure the clanners might have to wait a year to get their favorite toys but I think that makes the game that much better. Like the heavily quoted GreyGrif said, throwing the clans into the mix right off the bat takes away a lot from the game. I just think for how much back and forth there is on the issue, there arn't to many people who are going to say "no clans? I'm not playing!". The game being fun or sucking won't hinge on what mechs you can use right away. Just how I feel about it.

[Alizabeth Aijou]

The "current" timeline is c3085.
This game will be in a historical setting from the game universe's point of view.

Additionally, 3025 is a rather boring setting and the 4th succession war was over in only a few years 3028-3030, and was primarily FedSuns+Lyrans against the CapCon and the Tikonov Free Republic, with only minor incidents against the FWL and the DC.
With most of the losses on the DC side being negated through the creation of the FRR in 3034. Cue the Ronin Wars, which is primarily DCMS+KungsArmé vs. DCMS-Ronin. After that there's the War of '39, which lasted only a few months. With no further major incidents until the Clan Invasion.

So to stop the game from going stale too easily, we'll simply need the Clan Invasion.
The IS has pretty much recovered to what it was before the succession wars (not entirely, though), and is slowly improving on that.
What does this mean in-game?
Initially, no clans. (Safe bet) 3048/3049.
Want to make the game more interresting again?
Clans Invade, progressing the timeline to 3050-3052.
Lack of interrest in the game?
Bang! 3057. CapCon+FWL invade the newly formed FedCom. If clan players exist, they get the Refusal War (primarily CJF vs. CW).
Another lull in the game?
Operations Bird Dog, Bulldog, and Serpent. 3059/3060.
Next conflict?
Draconis Combine/Ghost Bear War, FedCom Civil War, Capella-St. Ives Compact War, 3062-3067.
Devs want to go even further?
Que Wobbie Jihad. 3067-3081.

That's enough for at least a few years in real-time, without too many years of nothing like you'd be having if the game started in 3025, or, Jinjiro-forbid, 3015. The last few years of the third succession war were horribly dull. Seven years of nothing or +/- 22 years of nothing?

Edited by Alizabeth Aijou, 12 November 2011 - 08:09 AM.

[Shocker]

I am putting my vote in for the time right around the discovery of the Helm memory core by the Gray Death Legion, heck you could even make those battles your training missions this would create a great genesis fr the series of tech leaps that occur afterwards

[feor]

Kenichero, on 12 November 2011 - 08:05 AM, said:

If they start before the clans invade and their tech and mechs arn't in the game yet, is anyone really NOT going to buy the game? I know everyone wants to get what they want but lets face it, when the game hits the shelf, everyone talking on these forums is going to play it.

Yes, but we're a fraction of the player base that an MMO, especially a free MMO, needs to actually make money.

At this point, a mechwarrior game coming out without the Clans would be like blizzard releasing a Starcraft game and saying "But this is before the Zerg, so the whole thing's Terran vs. Terran.

There will be fans of Blizzard and the Starcraft universe who will go "Oh, cool historical stuff, I always wondered what happened before the first Starcraft!" and there will be Blizzard fanboys who don't care what the story is, it's a Blizzard game.

But then there would be the casual starcraft fans, who will pick up the game and go "Wait... when do the Zerg/Protoss show up? They don't? Well where do they get off telling us this is a starcraft game if there's no Protoss or Zerg?."

The majority of people out there who play Mech Warrior probably don't even know Battletech exists, or have only a fleeting awareness of it, in the same way you might know a movie is based on a novel you never intend to read. If Prianha puts out a game that isn't to those people's expectations, then they're losing a HUGE playerbase, and probably not even getting a retail box sale out of most of them, making it a pure loss.

[Hodo]

rollermint, on 12 November 2011 - 07:07 AM, said:

That is a seriously f***** up attitude you have there.

Its unfortunate that you haven't grasp the meaning of maturity since 1986.

You obviously have a problem with my statement. And thus will be first on my list of people I will just destroy repeatedly in game. You can offer your Zellbringing or whatever you clanner fanbois want to call it, all you want. I will just blow your legs off and leave you. Nothing says cheap shot like legging a mech in Mechwarrior.

And i know maturity, I just hate the clans. To me they were the destruction of Battletech. It was either get on board or get run over with the overpowered, powergaming attitude, of the typical clan player. FASA back peddled for years trying to balance the clans after their introduction. They gave up and just gave the IS all the clan stuff. I challenge you to go and get MegaMek and run a few dozen battles at different BVs clan vs IS-3049 and see how that works out for you. I am sure if you just let the AI fight it out, the clans will win most of the fights if not ALL of the fights. You can even do this up until 3053 tech, it will still end the same. Clans = gamers who like power gaming, meta-gamers, and just players who cant stand to lose to skill and guile.

devil man, on 12 November 2011 - 05:31 AM, said:

While I wouldn't complain about a 3025 setting (although 3015 sounded better), let's look at a few potential problems:

1- Easily half of the MW fanbase consider themselves Clanners. You'd be leaving them out of MWO. At least with the current setting the Clanners will be able to pull a Wolves Dragoons and create a "secretly Clanner" merc unit and hold out hope for eventually being able to play as real Clanners.

2- Quite a few of the mechs that appear in previous incarnations of the MW CRPGs aren't around in 3025, and you risk alienating more players by dropping their "favorite mech" from the game.

3- Balance issues are easily remedied by applying unit values, but it's quite possible the only way to acquire Clan mech and tech will be to salvage it after the Clan invasions begin. As such, yes, eventually everyone will be upgrading to Clan tech. But if this game has some PvE aspect (which it's sounding like it will), such tech will eventually be available to everyone. Imagine, though, putting that Clan ERPPC you salvaged onto your mech only to lose it in your very next drop.

1- They will do what they want regardless. There will be 30 or 40 different units of people calling themselves Clan "fillintheblank" or the thousands of ways you can misspell Wolf's Dragoons.

2- No different than the numbers of 4th Succession War fans who would be left out because they cant use their favorite mech of the 3020s. Because its no longer competitive with the new tech.

3-You can not cross pollinate mech technology. Clan tech is not compatible with Inner Sphere tech. This was covered in several rule books and fluff books. It wasnt until the mid 3050s that the inner sphere figured out how to adapt the clan junk for use in a IS mech.

[Hodo]

I do like the idea of the War of 3039 though. That is interesting. Would be a fun beta timeframe.

[Oppi]

Do you seriously think, that a casual gamer, who doesn't really know the universe will drop the game he would otherwise like to play just because there ist no Timberwolf in it ? Therer are dozens and hundreds of Battlemechs, many of which look verry similar to each other, especially for somebody who is not familiar with the lore and has not read dozens of novels or roleplaying books. For example, the catapult looks like a Timberwolf without arms, the Marauder looks very much like a Timberwolf, and so on.

Bold statement : The people who would drop the game because of "no clan tech" are Clan fans who know the universe and the lore very well. Casual MW gamers without fluff knowledge will not care about the arms of their Mech looking slightly different from what they know. Give them some LRMs and a PPC to blast things with, and they will quickly adjust to some different chassis.
But as often explained, the Battletech fanbase will be by far the smaller part of the MWO players if the game is supposed to be successfull, which means that excluding the clans would not mean no one would play MWO.


Believing the opposite would lead to the conclusion that there would never ever be a MW game in the succession wars era again, and I just could not stand this ^^

Edited by Oppi, 12 November 2011 - 10:21 AM.

[TheForce]

Hodo, on 11 November 2011 - 11:47 PM, said:

I dont just hate the clans, I LOATH the clans.

I heart you Hodo.

[Stormwolf]

Oppi, on 12 November 2011 - 10:17 AM, said:

Do you seriously think, that a casual gamer, who doesn't really know the Universe will drop the game he would otherwise like to play just because there ist no Timberwolf in it ? Therer are hundreds of hundreds of Battlemechs and Omnimechs, many of which look verry similar to each other, especially for somebody who is not familiar with the lore and has not read dozens of novels or roleplaying books. For example, the catapult looks like a Timberwolf without arms, the Marauder looks very much like a Timberwolf, and so on.

Bold statement : The people who would drop the game because of "no clan tech" are Clan fans who know the universe and the lore very well. Casual MW gamers without fluff knowledge will not care about the arms of their Mech looking slightly different from what they know. Give them some LRMs and a PPC to blast things with, and they will quickly adjust to some different chassis.
But as often explained, the Battletech fanbase will be by far the smaller part of the MWO players if the game is supposed to be successfull, which means that excluding the clans would not mean no one would play MWO.


Believing the opposite would lead to the conclusion that there would never ever be a MW game in the succession wars era again, and I just could not stand this ^^

You are making one huge error here, the Timber Wolf you named is pretty much the symbol of Mechwarrior.

Most casual gamers are gonna go: "no Mad Cat, this sucks".


99% of the casual gamers out there aren't gonna know what a Wolverine, Atlas or Warhammer is.

I'll be posting my entire view on this thread at a later point since I don't have a lot of time right now.

[TheForce]

Oppi, on 12 November 2011 - 10:17 AM, said:

Believing the opposite would lead to the conclusion that there would never ever be a MW game in the succession wars era again, and I just could not stand this ^^

Such a sad statement

I have hope that if the game is really successful that they will have alternate timelines:

- succession wars
- clan vs clan
- clan vs IS

EDIT: I know keep repeating myself. No, I haven't been drinking.

Edited by TheForce, 12 November 2011 - 10:33 AM.

[Oppi]

Stormwolf, on 12 November 2011 - 10:25 AM, said:

You are making one huge error here, the Timber Wolf you named is pretty much the symbol of Mechwarrior.

Most casual gamers are gonna go: "no Mad Cat, this sucks".

How can you be so sure of that ? Put a Marauder into the ads and I promise you, most casual gamers won't know the difference (until they dig out an old Mech Warrior box, if they still have them). Take away the autocannon and add the missile launcher shoulders and it's the same design as the Timberwolf.

How can you even be so sure that people won't say "hey, cool, 'new' designs I don't know yet, that's fresh and exciting !" ?

Quote

99% of the casual gamers out there aren't gonna know what a Wolverine, Atlas or Warhammer is.

The Atlas is known from former MW titles, as well as the Orion, the Awesome, the Catapult, and some other old chassis. But again : Who will care ? If you want a game with giant robots battling each other with lasers and missiles you won't reject it just because the robot you get has a different head or arm. It would not be like taking the Zerg and Protoss away from Starcraft like somebody stated, but instead just like taking away the human tank and giving them another with slightly different abilities.

Back then, people who liked "Command and Conquer" bought "Red Alert" even if it didn't have the GDI and the Brotherhood of NOD in it.

Edited by Oppi, 12 November 2011 - 05:02 PM.

[UncleKulikov]

It looks like they will focus on the IS wars first, since all of the gear they've shown is 3025 era (atlas, hunchback, etc). Once the game is established and there are a few balance patches out, then I could see adding the clans and their fancy gear.

If Battlevalue is used to balance matches appropriately, then Clan tech won't pose a balance issue.

[Wolvers]

Oppi, on 12 November 2011 - 07:39 AM, said:

Long story short : The Clans were brought down in the lore, because their culture made them unable to adapt to the fighting style of the Inner Sphere !

Due to Zellbrigen being so ingrained in their society.

In any event, I agree it really couldn't be implemented at all. The only thing that can be potentially done is using BV to ensure that the numbers are on the IS side.

[Jack Gallows]

I agree with the developers on this, the 3049+ timeline is prime for a game of this type.

People love the IS, people love the Clans, and the Clan invasion is a great event to have happen after the base of the game gets started. I'll also say I don't hate the idea of a pure IS game, from 3025 to 3049 or what have you, but I think the best route they could have gotten to get all the fans of Mechwarrior is to do what they're doing.

[Bullseye69]

Most of my online play with Mechwarrior 4 mercs there was always a lot of clan chassis used I personally don't like the looks of some design I like you Inner Sphere chassis with clan tech. As long as you can run Clan tech in Inner Sphere chassis bring on the Clans. Just gives me more kills. But if you limit the tech to clan to clan only and inner sphere to inner sphere only then the only choose is to run clan chassis the inner sphere stuff just can't stand up to clan equipment unless you can choose your terrain for the fight, it usually a blood bath.

But i will take any Mechwarrior I can get these days.

Still can't figure out the short sighted of a company not having produced New Mechwarrior title before now.All the bea counters would have to done is look at how long Merc 4 is been around and how fans have added to it with no official support and the amount of play it had . They would have turned a profit on a New game , plus picked up new players. They were thinking like or elected officials and not using common sense.

[Stormwolf]

First of, misleading title. What you want is not what is not going to happen, deal with it.

I personally wouldn't be against a game set in 3025 since the BT universe was a lot simpler back then. But I also want to have a game where I can play as my favorite faction, I'm sick and tired of constantly having to play as a merc in recent years. A server set in 3025 could be a solution here, multiple timelines along the way would be awesome.

Many people want this game to be set in 3025, but there's really only two groups who want this:

1. The group of people who want to see this game as balanced as possible. I understand your reasoning, but consider this, TT games with uneven BV are usually the best, since the underdog needs to get creative. It's awesome to defeat a more powerful force through clever use of tactics. Even in a 3025 setting there is gonna be battles where one group holds a advantage over the other. Even in 3025 you will sometimes find SL era mechs, those are most definately more powerful then your standard IS mech, are you gonna ban those from the game too?

2. The die-hard 3025 purists, you guys have been giving me nothing but **** since I painted my first mini in the 90's. Some sad figures in this group even wanted me and others to stop playing altogether under threat of violence, hence why I despise this group. Sure, there have been guys in the early days who abused Clan tech the second it came out, but nowadays that sort of thing is frowned upon. It's time to move one, the IS is more advanced and we've had a couple of major conflicts beyond the Clan invasion. I find it remarkable that those guys never bash the Manei Domini like they did the Clans despite all the tech and pilot advantages. I've already spotted a number of you here. Don't cow anybody here into conforming with you, it was lame back then, it's lame now.


At any rate, this game is set in 3049, the Clans are going to be in the periphery near the end of the year, there's no avoiding it.

Like mentioned before, BV balancing is gonna solve most of the problems here. The IS side is always gonna be able to field more and heavier mechs then the Clan side.

I hope that Piranah Games is gonna implement zellbrigen in some fashion, this has been mentioned by me and numerous others. They probably have something in the works seeing how this game is already in development.

And everybody here, show some respect to players who aren't all that acquainted with the Battletech lore:

Hodo, on 11 November 2011 - 04:38 PM, said:

And you dont have to listen to the constant whining by people wanting to play their favorite clan-tech IS mech that hasnt been invented yet. (See the Innersphere Omni mech thread).

Those whining people are mostly the MW4 crowd, they are roughly the same size as the MW2 crowd and will most likely be playing this game. Don't be a **** towards them.

Edited by Stormwolf, 12 November 2011 - 01:23 PM.

[Alizabeth Aijou]

Quote

Long story short : The Clans were brought down in the lore, because their culture made them unable to adapt to the fighting style of the Inner Sphere !

Draconis Combine still exists, and they've had their old-style Bushido for centuries before Theodore got th bright idea to change it.
Yeah, they too had problems changing tactics and the like.

[Threat Doc]

Oppi, on 12 November 2011 - 07:39 AM, said:

So even if they hardcoded Zellbrigen into the game (by such a ridiculous thing as your weapons not firing when you try to break the rules), it would not at all balance it. The Players piloting the Clan mechs won't be real Clan warriors, they'll be people like you and me, perhaps used to playing first person shooters and beating up lonely enemies together with several of their own teammates. As soon as one IS pilot broke Zellbrigen, they would be able to do so themselves, and there would be no disadvantage at all.

It CAN be programmed into the game in a non-obtrusive way, but no one wants to hear how, so I'll keep it to myself.

Hodo, on 12 November 2011 - 09:51 AM, said:

I will just blow your legs off and leave you. Nothing says cheap shot like legging a mech in Mechwarrior.

Ouch.

Quote

...I just hate the clans. To me they were the destruction of Battletech. It was either get on board or get run over with the overpowered, powergaming attitude, of the typical clan player. FASA back peddled for years trying to balance the clans after their introduction. They gave up and just gave the IS all the clan stuff. Clans = gamers who like power gaming, meta-gamers, and just players who cant stand to lose to skill and guile.

Though I think it's a bit too serious for my blood, I also don't think I could agree more, Hodo. I hate the Clans, as well, at least on the game board -though I was able to get used to them through the novels- and I'll never play them. I'm a Merc through and through. I do feel as though they ruined BattleTech, but not nearly as bad as the stupid frickin' Jihad; that was the biggest mistake ever made in the entirety of the series. I've heard excuse after excuse about the introduction of the Clans, though they were at least acceptable story-wise, if not board game wise, but the WoB Jihad really screwed this up.

Stormwolf, on 12 November 2011 - 10:25 AM, said:

You are making one huge error here, the Timber Wolf you named is pretty much the symbol of Mechwarrior.

Most casual gamers are gonna go: "no Mad Cat, this sucks".

New players are not going to have a clue what the 'Mech on the front of the box is, in all of the game-play for all of the games, you NEVER EVER start out in a Timberwolf, you have to work your way up to it. The Clan-specific players already have the other Omni's in their head, and they want to be able to play those, as well, so the Timberwolf is NOT the only 'Mech they're interested in. For some, it's not EVEN about the Timberwolf.

Quote

99% of the casual gamers out there aren't gonna know what a Wolverine, Atlas or Warhammer is.

Then, it's about time they find out, isn't it?