98 replies to this topic

[Lord Baldric]

Mogney, on 09 October 2013 - 09:43 AM, said:

Ill have to look closer, but I didnt think you could see the colors on a mechs paint job on the pre-match screen.

Either way the answer is simple, ask before your start re-arranging. else my assumption is that you are trolling.

The only way you can see the colors of a mech pre-match is if they drop in front of you. You have no camera control until after 'all systems nominal' Nor is that data on the pre-match screen. Even if some do drop in front of you you don't have sensor data so cant see names until you have control of your mech. Id rather people be communicating and moving on an objective and not wasting time sorting groups.

Its a simple matter to be courteous and ask. For all the would-be field commanders out there. If you are going to 'optimize' a group but not bother to issue orders or respond to scouting data there is precious little point in altering groups. Assaults can still stick together, lights can swarm a target etc regardless of lance. I would focus on communicating tactics.

Edited by Lord Baldric, 09 October 2013 - 09:54 AM.

[StarGeezer]

I routinely PUG...either solo, or with one or two friends. None of us belong to an "organized" merc corps, consequently there are no "colors" to fly. Be that as it may, we are in voice chat with one another, and while it's not the end of the world if we get moved around (actually, before the new pre-lobby, the matchmaker would occasionally put us in separate lances on its own), we'd vastly prefer to stay in the same group. We also tend to not pre-coordinate which mech we're taking out, so it's not unusual for one of us to bring a light, and another a heavy. We still prefer to be grouped together, regardless of the perceived logistics or tactical aspirations of the self-appointed group leaders.

We're not likely to raise a fuss about it in game chat, but rest assured you'll not be really favorably looked-upon over voice chat should you choose to start shuffling us around. And in all likelihood, any resulting "orders" will probably be disregarded out-of-hand on principle.

[Alaskan Nobody]

StarGeezer, on 09 October 2013 - 09:57 AM, said:

We're not likely to raise a fuss about it in game chat, but rest assured you'll not be really favorably looked-upon over voice chat should you choose to start shuffling us around. And in all likelihood, any resulting "orders" will probably be disregarded out-of-hand on principle.

All I ask is that if we ask first - respond.
I have said so many times in this topic, but:
If you do not respond when we ask if you mind, you forfeit the right to get upset in any way.

[StarGeezer]

Shar Wolf, on 09 October 2013 - 10:03 AM, said:

All I ask is that if we ask first - respond.
I have said so many times in this topic, but:
If you do not respond when we ask if you mind, you forfeit the right to get upset in any way.

Actually, I rarely pay attention to game chat (thank you, trolls, for ruining communication in the game.) Even if we do happen to see it, again we're not typically going to raise a big stink over it. But I think you overstate your case about "forfeiting the right to get upset in any way." We may be annoyed/upset, and the best way we can make known our displeasure is to simply ignore the instigator. If we wind up doing what the "leader" ordered, consider that more of a happy coincidence and not acquiescence.

[Alaskan Nobody]

StarGeezer, on 09 October 2013 - 10:10 AM, said:

Actually, I rarely pay attention to game chat (thank you, trolls, for ruining communication in the game.) Even if we do happen to see it, again we're not typically going to raise a big stink over it. But I think you overstate your case about "forfeiting the right to get upset in any way." We may be annoyed/upset, and the best way we can make known our displeasure is to simply ignore the instigator. If we wind up doing what the "leader" ordered, consider that more of a happy coincidence and not acquiescence.

My 'case' as you call being that I have been teamkilled 3 games out of 4 for moving people who did not respond when I asked -even after giving them well beyond the start of the match before moving them. No I do not think I am overstating it.
Exceptions to every rule, but the rule for me is what I have been posting repeatedly.

...and yet for all you claim not to get upset by it - you still proclaim it makes you less likely to those who may be trying to facilitate teamwork? wonderful statement about yourself there.

[StarGeezer]

Shar Wolf, on 09 October 2013 - 10:13 AM, said:

My 'case' as you call being that I have been teamkilled 3 games out of 4 for moving people who did not respond when I asked -even after giving them well beyond the start of the match before moving them. No I do not think I am overstating it.
Exceptions to every rule, but the rule for me is what I have been posting repeatedly.

...and yet for all you claim not to get upset by it - you still proclaim it makes you less likely to those who may be trying to facilitate teamwork? wonderful statement about yourself there.

I think you're projecting what has happened to you in the past onto our little group. At no point did I say being moved would result in us opening fire on a teammate. That would be petty and silly.

However, I also never said we wouldn't get upset over it. And while we're not going to be moved by pettiness to run contrary to the overall goals of our team to obtain victory, our contribution toward that end will not be because of, but rather in spite of, the "strategic genius" of the so-called "leader." Any attempt to read more of a motive into our actions says more about you rather than us.

[Mogney]

Hopefully they will disable this feature for everyone but 12-mans very soon. It has certainly caused enough grief for very little benefit. If you want to play company commander, get 11 friends and make a company.

Seriously this is a game, and one I enjoy playing with friends, we don't need somebody taking us out of our lance. Seeing the damage % in the top left of the screen, and the light blue arrows on the minimap is helpful and we would rather not work without them, especially when there is no good reason we should have to.

If you ask and I see it I will respond, if I miss it, and ask you to put us back I would consider it very bad form to not do so. So far I have only had my lance broken up a few times, and both times the guy has refused to put us back when asked. I didn't shoot him in the back but I did strongly consider it.

[Alaskan Nobody]

StarGeezer, on 09 October 2013 - 10:22 AM, said:

However, I also never said we wouldn't get upset over it.

StarGeezer, on 09 October 2013 - 10:10 AM, said:

We may be annoyed/upset.

There you go.

StarGeezer, on 09 October 2013 - 10:22 AM, said:

At no point did I say being moved would result in us opening fire on a teammate.

I never said you did. I simply stated that being shot at is one of the things that has ME upset about people not responding.

Once again:
If you do not respond when we ask: then you forfeit the right to get upset in any way.

[StarGeezer]

Shar Wolf, on 09 October 2013 - 10:26 AM, said:

There you go.

I encourage you to re-read what I wrote: I added emphasis to make it a bit easier:

StarGeezer, on 09 October 2013 - 10:22 AM, said:

However, I also never said we wouldn't get upset over it.

Meaning, we very likely WOULD get upset over it. I'm fairly confident I have been consistent in stating this. Feel free to parse my replies again and let me know if there is any disparity. I'll wait.

Shar Wolf, on 09 October 2013 - 10:26 AM, said:

I never said you did. I simply stated that being shot at is one of the things that has ME upset about people not responding.

Once again:
If you do not respond when we ask: then you forfeit the right to get upset in any way.

There is a rather simple solution then: don't arrogate unto yourself the prerogative to move other people's lances without express PRIOR permission. To be quite clear, don't shuffle without asking first. Simple. Failure to do so will likely wind up with some folks getting upset, forfeitures notwithstanding.

[Bramis Dreadknight]

I view that if someone takes command and actually issues orders instead of just rearranging and then holding on to command I have seen multiple people rearrange groups and so forth with no possibility of any order to anything. I think that if command is taken you should assume that most or some are grouped together. and a polite thing to do is to issue orders don't disrupt the pug by random movements of group mates or other lances and issue smart commands not go out in the open and defend this location. first and foremost who cares. in the end they team kill you they are just doing harm to themselves in the end even if u tk a new player that is still another body on the field, but yes being moved is annoying. oh well

Edited by Bramis Dreadknight, 09 October 2013 - 10:47 AM.

[Alaskan Nobody]

StarGeezer, on 09 October 2013 - 10:41 AM, said:

There is a rather simple solution then: don't arrogate unto yourself the prerogative to move other people's lances without express PRIOR permission. To be quite clear, don't shuffle without asking first. Simple. Failure to do so will likely wind up with some folks getting upset, forfeitures notwithstanding.

I apologize for misreading about you getting upset. but you are missing my point.

I ASK.
If you do not respond: THAT DOES NOT EQUAL SAYING DO NOT DO IT.
I am no leader, I give up command after I shift lances.
I may have no skill with actual leadership, but I do have some skill with knowing what mechs fill which roles.
If making use of that skill is arrogance - then I for DAMN SURE do not want to know where you fall on that scale.

I have an abysmal W/L
I acknowledge that my ELO is about as low as it can go.

HOWEVER.

I have found that rearranging the lances has increased my chances of winning to 2 out of every 3 games.
UNLESS PEOPLE GET UPSET ABOUT IT.
People doing so has become the surest way I know my team has already lost.
2/3 is a Very large number for my W/L, and as far as I know there is nothing wrong with maintaining something that has consistently shown to maintain that number.

so once more:
WHEN ASKED if you do NOT RESPOND
You forfeit the RIGHT to get upset in ANY WAY when you find things shifted.

That clear enough?

[Lord Baldric]

Getting no response does not automatically mean a yes. Any number of reasons you wont get a reply. If that were the case the scam emails that state " By reading this correspondence you are agreeing to our terms and conditions unless expressly stated otherwise" would be valid. You can choose to feel that no response is a tacit approval so long as you accept the ramifications for that decision. You do not get to choose when and how someone gets upset about anything. Unless you know for sure your message was seen and intentionally ignored you can't say why you didn't get a reply.

If you do not get an affirmative simply do not go forward. You have experienced some of the possible consequences for doing so and accept the outcome of your choice. Of course I'm not implying you should just let it go. You have recourse. Use it. It is a feature that is meant to be used.

Edited by Lord Baldric, 09 October 2013 - 10:58 AM.

[Arnold J Rimmer]

This thread is getting shouty.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Lord Baldric, on 09 October 2013 - 10:55 AM, said:

If you do not get an affirmative simply do not go forward.

Aprox. 80% or so of my matches there is absolutely no communication at all (exception being those who have been getting upset lately) and I have been recording my matches, so yes - I know how much talking happens when I play.

Now go back and consider that W/L number I have gained doing this.

There are few absolutes in the world.

I ask.
They respond: I listen
They do not respond: I act.

Yes it is getting shouty.

I apologize for adding to that - BUT If people listen when I talk, I need not yell.
I hate yelling, it makes the throat course and uncomfortable.
Not to mention how nasty cough drops taste.

I ask before I act.
The behavior I have been getting is why online communities have such bad rep.

Again:
When asked beforehand
You forfeit the right to get upset when you chose not to respond.

You do not let them know BEFOREHAND you do not like it.
THEY HAVE NO WAY TO KNOW YOU DO NOT LIKE IT.
You have no RIGHT to get upset when they act.

[Bramis Dreadknight]

lol people are going to do whatever they want while one person finds their actions to be viable the next may not it is how things will always go. now relax guys someday we will have in game communication through voice which by then this will be beaten to death on this subject matter but then the rearrangement of lances could work out better in the end. but till then to each there own

[Arnold J Rimmer]

Shar Wolf, on 09 October 2013 - 11:02 AM, said:

Yes it is getting shouty.

I apologize for adding to that - BUT If people listen when I talk, I need not yell.

If people don't listen to you, do you really think saying it louder will help? If anything, you're less likely to get a cogent response. Keep calm and civil- everybody wins. Either they take your point on board, or they don't and you don't get into an argument.

[Lord Baldric]

And I will state that you are welcome to act as you choose. The feature has no requirements or restrictions.

This is a case of actions and consequences. You wish to do something. You try to be courteous. You are also aware of the potential outcome regardless. If someone breaks the CoC in their anger report it.

Unless you can definitely prove that you were seen, understood and ignored then raged at anyway you have no authority to claim anyone has to forfeit anything. That is the choice you make with how you choose to handle it.

Its not a case of people not listening. Nor is it a case of them not understanding. This is a disagreement of principle nothing more.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Arnold J Rimmer, on 09 October 2013 - 11:16 AM, said:

If people don't listen to you, do you really think saying it louder will help? If anything, you're less likely to get a cogent response. Keep calm and civil- everybody wins. Either they take your point on board, or they don't and you don't get into an argument.

Sadly I am not in a state of mind this morning to be thinking that clearly shocking I know - thank you for bringing it up

A lot of people say I should try drinking coffee, but caffeine hits me different than it does most folks (used to take a pill called No-Doze during middle school, I was 20 before I realized it wasn't named ironically) and the stuff smells nasty

Another sad part is, most of the people who've been TKing me do not even have forum profiles so they wouldn't even see me ranting about it

Ah well, such is life, eh?

May your next matches be close ones!

[StarGeezer]

It is my sincere hope that PGI actually reserves the company command feature for 12-mans. Pending that, the best course of action would be to simply leave it be for PUGs. Any benefit that is deduced from shuffling lances is likely anecdotal after only a week of implementation, and would statistically be pretty close to what results would be had no intervention taken place at all.

Now if one insists on assuming command, then they should of course ask first (and lauds to you for doing so.) However, lack of a response does not de facto deserve to be interpreted as tacit agreement or approval. The people may not have seen it, may not have realized the ramifications of your request, or may simply not have felt like responding. I personally feel absolutely no compulsion whatsoever to communicate via in-game chat. On occasion when I'm feeling charitable, I may give the odd "gl hf" or "gg", but generally-speaking, I keep to myself and my friends on voice chat.

In like manner, my silence should not be construed as an abrogation of any "right" to feel upset. Feelings are feelings, one's actions or inactions cannot and does not nullify those. As an adult and fairly reasonable person, I will not allow my feelings to dictate how I respond, nor will I use them as a result to lash out in an unacceptable and immature fashion. In other words, if your main concern is taking an alpha in the back from me or my lancemates, then your fears are unfounded. If, however, you expect us to simply go along for the ride because you have a star next to your name, then again I'm afraid you may be disappointed in this regard.

In summary (and to reduce my contribution to the "shouty" nature of the thread), let me just play the game in peace with my friends. That's all I'm asking.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Lord Baldric, on 09 October 2013 - 11:23 AM, said:

Unless you can definitely prove that you were seen, understood and ignored then raged at anyway you have no authority to claim anyone has to forfeit anything.

And there is the frustrating catch 22

When 80% or so of the matches people never say anything - EVER - who is actually to say what I do actually has an impact, or rather that my luck for those matches has simply been to have a better team, and what I did had no actual meaning?

Lord Baldric, on 09 October 2013 - 11:23 AM, said:

This is a disagreement of principle nothing more.

So was WW1, WW2, the Korean War, the Cold War, and every war ever.
He says I should (in practice) never move anyone EVER.
Actually there was a whole 1! match where I was given permission....

I say this has been the biggest change in my W/L score ever.

He says I am being rude to even think it (in practice)
I am saying he is being rude to get upset when he ignores the feature put in for PuGs to communicate such desires.

Arguing it, as has been pointed out (thanks Arnold) is ultimately pointless as neither of us is willing to give in, and he has been unwilling to acknowledge that my side might have any validity (though that may be a case of me misreading again)

I wish you luck StarGeezer, but I fear I am currently hoping that I never EVER see you on my side of the field again.

StarGeezer, on 09 October 2013 - 11:27 AM, said:

Or may simply not have felt like responding.

And therein lies the most frequent response I have got for why they did not respond in the first place, and why it bothers me so when they get so upset after.

If you simply "feel like not responding" that is (to my understanding of common communication anyways) the same as telling them you do not care either way.