532 replies to this topic

[JohnnyWayne]

Almond Brown, on 09 October 2013 - 10:02 AM, said:

Utter nonsense. The PPC and erPPC do the same damage as they always have. The fact that you can't carry as many, or just hold down the trigger forever, like before, does not change that fact.

I want to play my marauder in the way its meant to be played. PPCs do the same damage per hit but they don't do the sustained damage they are supposed to do. PPCs were NEVER in a state where you just could hold a trigger down and fire, and they never will be.

Everything you said is utter "nonesense" and wrong. Before you post something like this think first, or at least try to.

@ that specialist {Dezgra}: PPCs were on a 3.33 second cooldown in open beta for a long time and on 8 heat without a heat penalty, and thats what made it boatable, but the rate until you overheated was the same as it now is. Compared to the ac10 the PPC fires slow as **** and therefore there is no reason that it should stay this hot. Before that PPCs were at 10 heat and a projectile speed of 13XX and nobody used them. Many keep on pretending that hit reg was the issue, but that was not the point. They just sucked in general and do yet again. Personally handling LL is way easier to me than a PPC right now (especially due to the buffs they recived). Thats no weapon balance neither for ballistics nor energy weapons. Thats just BS.

Either fix the heatsystem to no higher cap and higher dissipation rate so that you can sustain the damage longer or reduce the heat. I'd prefer the first one in combination with the things i said about heat penaltys..

[Ngamok]

JohnnyWayne, on 09 October 2013 - 12:29 PM, said:

I want to play my marauder in the way its meant to be played. PPCs do the same damage per hit but they don't do the sustained damage they are supposed to do. PPCs were NEVER in a state where you just could hold a trigger down and fire, and they never will be.

Everything you said is utter "nonesense" and wrong. Before you post something like this think first, or at least try to.

@ that specialist {Dezgra}: PPCs were on a 3.33 second cooldown in open beta for a long time and on 8 heat without a heat penalty, and thats what made it boatable, but the rate until you overheated was the same as it now is. Compared to the ac10 the PPC fires slow as **** and therefore there is no reason that it should stay this hot. Before that PPCs were at 10 heat and a projectile speed of 13XX and nobody used them. Many keep on pretending that hit reg was the issue, but that was not the point. They just sucked in general and do yet again. Personally handling LL is way easier to me than a PPC right now (especially due to the buffs they recived). Thats no weapon balance neither for ballistics nor energy weapons. Thats just BS.

Either fix the heatsystem to no higher cap and higher dissipation rate so that you can sustain the damage longer or reduce the heat. I'd prefer the first one in combination with the things i said about heat penaltys..

Closed Beta Speed was 1200 m/s and 10/15 heat and no HSR. Now they are 1500 m/s same heat and with HSR. They were also 3s cooldown, yes they cycled faster than lasers. Now they are 4s to match the cooldown of lasers + beam duration. But lowering heat even to 12 or 13 makes them boatalbe on everything. When the heat was low at 12, everyone used them, every chassis you saw had 1-4 of them. They are better than lasers at that point because of putting 10 points in one spot each time. You leave them at 15 and people then choose whether they want ERLL, LL, or ERPPC depending on what you want for range and heat and what you can handle. You put them at 12 or 13 and my HGN goes back to 3xERPPC instead of the 2 it currently has.

[JohnnyWayne]

It won't make them boatable. You just have to readjust heat penaltys and finally give some chassis different max alpha weapons...

Btw boating is more than 3 if you strech the term for large weapons more than 2. And no they are not better than lasers because if you don't suck balls, you'll do anyway. On the other hand if you miss with a PPC is way worse than with an laser. You can argue what you want I perform better with lasers and everyone else thats not totally ******** (what are many as I was impressivly reminded today ingame again ) you can do it too.

Lets see:
LL run way cooler, do almost the same damage for exactly the same range as PPCs (ok they don't reach as far as ER PPCs but these are also WAY hotter - compared to the ERLL the gap gets even bigger...), weight less and need less crit slots.

PPCs just place the damage on one location (what you can do easily with LL too), have traveltime (thats currently a really big point) and you are truely missing if you miss.

Nope sry, LL is way better than any PPC version.

AC10 have ammo dependency, run extremely cool and have higher DPS (almost double) than PPCs. As OP stated, DHS is the ammo of the PPC with higher crit slot cunsumption (and therefore are 3x more likely to get destroyed on crits) than ammo which negates that argument. 3-4 tons of ammo are enough.

So in the end, any weapontype that is on the same level as the PPC is far superior than the PPC. Not to speak of the ERPPC. There needs something to be changed.

Edited by JohnnyWayne, 09 October 2013 - 01:45 PM.

[Gorgo7]

1.) Do not reduce the heat on the PPC/ERPPC!
Ensure a double heat-sink is a double heat-sink. The heat generation/pool isn't the issue. Dissipation is. Current rates are linear until the Doubles start getting added to the superstructure.
2) This is a hidden penalty to ALL energy weapon builds.
3) I've seen very few Dakka builds with more than one or two Heat-sinks in their superstructure. Making the DHS truly double will have no effect on them or their performance.
Dakka heat builds slowly and predictably.
Further they will often carry one or two COOL SHOTS...a single 9x9 drops their heat score from 90% to 50% in a split second.
Cool shot and keep your finger on the trigger, hose that puppy...know what I mean? Shake rattle and roll!
Its hard to aim when the mech is being tossed about by a pair of AC/2's and UAC/5's from a single machine.

Throw a pair of PPC's into a machine with a 250 engine and double heatsinks.
Result? 16 seconds before shut down, not bad! Elite the skills up and you get 22 seconds.
Pile 10 more double heatsinks into the chassis and one more PPC and you see a reduction in shut down time to 15 sec.
What gives?
You should be able to drop a pair into that first machine and have four PPC's that fire for 16 sec before shut down.
That's across the board for all energy weapon builds as they are the only ones using the extra heatsinks in any numbers worth mentioning.
Yeah, yeah, the assaults often have 15 or 16 on board for mixed load-outs.
The Dakkas do not.
Most of the monkeys out there yakking about Dakkas being shorted because they need ammo need to sober-up and support this because if they don't all they'll every face is a shrinking number of the same builds they pilot now.

Smarten up.

[CrashieJ]

Gladewolf, on 09 October 2013 - 09:56 AM, said:

At 23 years old you likely don't have enough experience to call anyone kid. Trying to use closed beta is about the worst possible argument anyone could use for anything...that ended last year and concluded very little

#1. Closed Beta was probably the most balanced version of Mechwarrior Online that was ever witnessed, before the "OMG NERF EVERYTHING BECAUSE WE DONT WANT TO LEARN" Syndrome Kicked in

Lupus Aurelius, on 09 October 2013 - 09:11 AM, said:

Boy, I'm probably old enough to be your father...and math, logic, still trump your opinion. Learn to deal with that, boy.

#2. Age has nothing to do with it, only the experiences witnessed during our lifetime. If you think that I am a "boy" you are clearly mistaken.

#3. Math and Logic are only part of the equation when creating a game, and my opinion can also be backed up with "math and logic" and with enough fancy graphs and mathematical equations trump your opinion. Such is Statistics.

and lastly

JohnnyWayne, on 09 October 2013 - 09:54 AM, said:

No. They are not. They are general weapons and pretty common among all mechs in BT. Just because you WANT them to be, that doesn't mean they are or they should be.

#4. the term "Specialist" is a term that has been loosely applied like the word "Sniper" and "Sharpshooter". PPCs are specialist weapons because they tend to have more of a situational aspect to it's format.

can you fire a Gauss at under 90m? Yes, and you can kill with is
with a ER/PPC under 90m? Prepare to get drenched with sweat for a mild stain

if PPCs are giving you a problem, maybe packing a few other weapons onto your build MAY help you with your problem... I heard Ballistic Weapons are all the rage nowadays. (I will agree GHOSTHEAT is abominable, SEE FORUM SIGNATURE BELOW)

Edited by gavilatius, 09 October 2013 - 05:07 PM.

[Gorgo7]

gavilatius, on 09 October 2013 - 05:06 PM, said:

#3. Math and Logic are only part of the equation when creating a game, and my opinion can also be backed up with "math and logic" and with enough fancy graphs and mathematical equations trump your opinion. Such is Statistics.

"There are three kinds of lies in this world,
White Lies,
Damned Lies,
and Statistics!"

Mark Twain

[Nubsternator]

MAKE EXTERNAL DOUBLE HEAT SINKS ACT AS DOUBLE HEAT SINKS AND NOT 1.4 HEAT SINKS!!!

Edited by Nubsternator, 09 October 2013 - 06:05 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Performance wise the easiest way to see how PPC balancing has played out is to watch the stats of top performing players. Do they still use PPCs or did everyone go with LLs? People still use PPCs. All that's really changed is that it's a pretty even mix of ERPPCs and PPCs instead of it just being all ERPPCs. That's less a product of heat and more a product of 0 damage within minimum range for PPCs.

PPCs don't conflate with TT well anymore because of the differences created by pinpoint accuracy and the power that lends to impact weapons vs damage over time weapons (lasers and smaller ACs whos strength lies in DPS vs one-shot).

ERPPCs + AC10 is powerful because it lets you drop 30 points on a single location at decent range. and drop behind cover before a DPS weapon gets more than 1 or 2 shots at you. Now that it's hot and slow though it's a poor weapon for brawling - this is the only thing making missiles and ACs viable again.

The issue isn't that ACs are more powerful than PPCs, they are not. It's that they're more tactically flexible and forgiving of missed shots and poor control of combat range. This is important for the big majority of players in MWO because 90% of players are not in the top 10%. We all like to think we are - we all like to believe, deep down, that our Elo is pretty high and we're playing against great players often and we are ourselves great players.

You're not. We're not. We're all hovering pretty close to average. 90% of people are not in the top 10%. In adapting battletech TT to a FPS environment some things have to change - pinpoint accuracy demands balance towards dealing with a sniper meta which is a concept without parallel in TT. PPCs/ERPPCs fit in that meta. Unlimited ammo, good range, accurate and solid damage that is exceeded only by AC20 and Gauss (which have their own specific limitations) they are weapons that work best in the hands of people with good patience, positioning, trigger discipline and range management. For the rest of us they're clumsy at times and we're probably better served sticking to lasers.

That's okay. You want to use PPCs or Gauss, you need to focus on the skill sets they engender. PPCs do not need heat reduction. That will ONCE AGAIN utterly destroy the balance and value of every single weapon that isn't a PPC/ERPPC. We had that for months. Most people hated it. Tons of people quit over it. It was horrible and unpleasant and banal and negative in just about every way a game experience can be negative.

I do pretty well with PPCs and an AC10 on my Cataphract. I just don't enjoy poptarting and sniping so I go with ACs and LLs because deep down I'm a brawler and I like lots of BOOM and dakka.

That's my flaw, not an error in PPCs. Don't like PPCs now? Don't use them. use lasers or ACs or missiles. PPCs are sniper weapons in MW:O because something needs to be and they fit it well. Quit trying to make them 'best all-around go to weapon'. Hilariously that seems to have suddenly become the once-neglected AC10s and 5s, possibly LLs again (a staple weapon).

that's a good thing. PPCs are good now. We dealt with months and months of crappy PPC meta. It's gone now. Celebrate and ring bells, the game is vastly better for it.

[Lupus Aurelius]

gavilatius, on 09 October 2013 - 05:06 PM, said:

#2. Age has nothing to do with it, only the experiences witnessed during our lifetime. If you think that I am a "boy" you are clearly mistaken.

#3. Math and Logic are only part of the equation when creating a game, and my opinion can also be backed up with "math and logic" and with enough fancy graphs and mathematical equations trump your opinion. Such is Statistics.

I was you who called me "kid", I believe. If you're going to denigrate someone by calling them a kid, you should not take offense when you are called "boy". You want respect, give respect.

Statistics are math. And as far as math / statistics / logic, they still are hard data, not subjective opinion.

The hard data is, for the range/damage/heat profiles in the OP, the ballistics utilized only the inherent DHS from the engine, which function as actual double HS, they give .2 heat cooling per second ea, 2 cooling per second total.

The ERPPC data was premised on the 10 engine DHS, and an additional 10 external DHS, giving a cooling of 3.4 heat per second to that mech. Even with the additional cooling, those dual ERPPCs overheat in 4 volleys. Now, those 10 addition external DHS represents an additional 10 tons and 30 criticals, making the total weight and criticals for those 2 ERPPCs 24 tons and 36 criticals, or 12 tons 18 critical each.

If they overheated the mech in 4 volleys with just 10 engine DHS, I would agree that they were fine, and perhaps even needed more heat, but with 10 additional DHS and it's overheating in 4 volleys, absolutely not.

People seem to forget that the ERPPC data is based on 10 engine DHS, and 10 external DHS, whereas the ballistic figures are based on just the 10 engine DHS.

So, no, it's not opinion about the data, that data is verifiable by anyone and is objective

Edited by Lupus Aurelius, 10 October 2013 - 01:24 PM.

[Vodrin Thales]

Lupus Aurelius, on 10 October 2013 - 01:18 PM, said:

I was you who called me "kid", I believe. If you're going to denigrate someone by calling them a kid, you should not take offense when you are called "boy". You want respect, give respect.

Statistics are math. And as far as math / statistics / logic, they still are hard data, not subjective opinion.

The hard data is, for the range/damage/heat profiles in the OP, the ballistics utilized only the inherent DHS from the engine, which function as actual double HS, they give .2 heat cooling per second ea, 2 cooling per second total.

The ERPPC data was premised on the 10 engine DHS, and an additional 10 external DHS, giving a cooling of 3.4 heat per second to that mech. Even with the additional cooling, those dual ERPPCs overheat in 4 volleys. Now, those 10 addition external DHS represents an additional 10 tons and 30 criticals, making the total weight and criticals for those 2 ERPPCs 24 tons and 36 criticals, or 12 tons 18 critical each.

If they overheated the mech in 4 volleys with just 10 engine DHS, I would agree that they were fine, and perhaps even needed more heat, but with 10 additional DHS and it's overheating in 4 volleys, absolutely not.

People seem to forget that the ERPPC data is based on 10 engine DHS, and 10 external DHS, whereas the ballistic figures are based on just the 10 engine DHS.

So, no, it's not opinion about the data, that data is verifiable by anyone and is objective

The fact that ERPPC's generate 15 heat per shot and the amount of DHS needed to compensate for that heat generation are facts and are not debatable. Whether or not they generate too much heat as currently set is debatable and is not a fact. Personally I think they are appropriately balanced. At 13 heat per shot they were too good and everyone put them on every mech they could. 15 is not that far north from there.

At their current levels they are still superior to AC's when engagements are of limited duration (such as popping in and out of cover), but AC's are much better for sustained engagements. Previously the PPC/ERPPC was better in almost every situation and that was not good.

[Ezazel]

I read OP as "I want my magic stick, that is the best weapon at all ranges, back."

That being said the heat could possibly be 14 without them being too good. At 13 they would probably be too good. I know i would have one in almost every build, like i used to.

[Vodrin Thales]

Ezazel, on 10 October 2013 - 01:42 PM, said:

I read OP as "I want my magic stick, that is the best weapon at all ranges, back."

That being said the heat could possibly be 14 without them being too good. At 13 they would probably be too good. I know i would have one in almost every build, like i used to.

At 13 they would definitely be too good( they were everywhere when they were last set at 13). At 15 they are still usable, but only in small numbers. Overall I think this is the right way to go as I am not sure that they would still be too good at 14.

Edited by Vodrin Thales, 10 October 2013 - 01:45 PM.

[Lupus Aurelius]

Vodrin Thales, on 10 October 2013 - 01:31 PM, said:

The fact that ERPPC's generate 15 heat per shot and the amount of DHS needed to compensate for that heat generation are facts and are not debatable. Whether or not they generate too much heat as currently set is debatable and is not a fact. Personally I think they are appropriately balanced. At 13 heat per shot they were too good and everyone put them on every mech they could. 15 is not that far north from there.

At their current levels they are still superior to AC's when engagements are of limited duration (such as popping in and out of cover), but AC's are much better for sustained engagements. Previously the PPC/ERPPC was better in almost every situation and that was not good.

The Dual ERPPC mech - 4 volleys across 12 seconds, total 80 damage, until shutdown
The Dual AC10 mech - 9 volleys across 20 seconds, total 180 damage, and no shutdown
The Dual AC5/UAC5 mech - 14 volleys across 20 seconds, total 140 damage and no shutdown
The Dual AC2 mech - 34 volleys over 17.7 seconds, total 136 damage, until shutdown
The Dual Gauss mech - 6 volleys over 20 seconds, total 180 damage, no shutdown, negative temp. trend

The dual ERPPC mech, with 14 additional heat rating, and 1.4 additional cooling per second, can only volley 4 times before inducing a shutdown, with the possibility of taking internal crit damage every time you do. And that is if you only fire the ERPPCs, fire anything else and it get worse. And you are saying this is balanced? With double the DHS for the ERPPC mech, 30 crits just in DHS out of 46 to 51 crits available, and that's counting center torso, legs, and head. So 7 of those crits are not even usable for DHS.

But we'll go with the high figure, and say 44 max crits that you can get DHS in. So, having to utilize almost 3/4 of available crits that can fit DHS, in order to use 2 ERPPCs and get on a heat neutral map 4 volleys before overheat. you have a max of 14 crits to fit weapons, and the heat curve gets even worse for everyone you add, and guess what, the only thing you have tonnage and crits for is, guess what, energy weapons.

And you call this balanced? Hardly.

And what you are ignoring is that there are plenty of mechs that have only energy and missile hardpoints, with the ERPPC being the only pinpoint damage dealer in those 2 weapon groups. It is the only choice those mechs have for that damage type.

What you are advocating, therefore, is in order to compete in a sustained engagement, that those mechs are sub-optimal, and that one should choose a ballistic capable mech to have sustainable pinpoint damage, which all the ballistics have.

When it comes down to only one good choice, that is not balance.

Edited by Lupus Aurelius, 10 October 2013 - 04:52 PM.

[CravenMadness]

It's fun watching the 'Find me a meta' crowd try to get their meta-game back. The discussions are a big sign as to why number-crunchers break otherwise relatively enjoyable games. Gotta' be that min/max red wizard to get the most out of everything.

[Equalizer]

CravenMadness, on 10 October 2013 - 05:30 PM, said:

It's fun watching the 'Find me a meta' crowd try to get their meta-game back. The discussions are a big sign as to why number-crunchers break otherwise relatively enjoyable games. Gotta' be that min/max red wizard to get the most out of everything.

Be that as it may, this crowd member would still like to see viable ERPPCs again. Currently when I see someone using a pair of those I'm like "hey, a free kill", and I find this wrong - I want to fear them. Instead I have to put up with faggotry such as boated auto cannons of all sizes and the occasional streak boat, since nothing else is worth using anymore. The role of energy weapons has been reduced to that of support weapons, and that's what I dislike most in the current meta. Yes, PPCWarrior Online was terrible and I'm certainly not advocating to get it back, but the current state of the game is even worse IMO. I'm kind of 100% with Lupus Aurelius here - so far his arguments have been mostly impartial, constructive and based on data, rather than personal opinion.

[Karl Streiger]

Equalizer, on 10 October 2013 - 11:55 PM, said:

Be that as it may, this crowd member would still like to see viable ERPPCs again. Currently when I see someone using a pair of those I'm like "hey, a free kill",

Want to face my Founder Atlas when its head is fixed? I'm hardly able to fire them 3 times in a row.
But thats not an problem - i still have a nerfed Gauss gun and - SRMs with wonky hit detection and an complete useless Large Pulse Laser....but the funny thing is all those nerfed and useless guns in a single frame do work.

irrespective of sounding like a broken record
reducing of heat for the ER-PPC may not be necessary - but a heat reduction towards 12.5 or 13 would not change anything.
A Mech with 20DHS will still overheat after 4 salvos. Only difference is that now 22 heat sinks may save your butt

Edited by Karl Streiger, 11 October 2013 - 12:05 AM.

[ChallengerCC]

Thats true. PPC and especially RPPC are getting way to hot for there damage now.
A nother real big problem are the canons. AC20, AC5, etc. The are now the ultimate strongest weapon.
You only see jaegermechs cataphracts and other canon mechs.

To fix this constant balancing mechwarrior needs multiple armor tpes against different weapons.
So that the game balance it self and mono builds are a russian roulette or ineffectiv when the most players go on a special armor type.

[Primez]

I am curious now after reading the OP. Did anyone take into account hitscan and the size of a projectiles? To me ballastics always seemed smaller and those harder to hit. There were times where I shot at a running mech while running myself and the round passed between the mechs legs. I didn't find that happening as often with ppcs and erppcs.

[Karl Streiger]

ChallengerCC, on 11 October 2013 - 12:05 AM, said:

Thats true. PPC and especially RPPC are getting way to hot for there damage now.
A nother real big problem are the canons. AC20, AC5, etc. The are now the ultimate strongest weapon.
You only see jaegermechs cataphracts and other canon mechs.

maybe that has a simple other reason: fire brand any ilya were in sale two weaks ago? So a lot of guys need to skill Catapracts and Jaegers - and those things are ballistic carriers...(Although the Jaeger is OP considering its weapon hardpoints)

Primez, on 11 October 2013 - 12:06 AM, said:

I am curious now after reading the OP. Did anyone take into account hitscan and the size of a projectiles? To me ballastics always seemed smaller and those harder to hit. There were times where I shot at a running mech while running myself and the round passed between the mechs legs. I didn't find that happening as often with ppcs and erppcs.

You can consider it - but you hardly can add this in a equotation - same with average to hit abiltiy - at range.
For example the UAC 5 - may be able to hit targets at 1300m with some damage - but do you inflict the full damage at one hitzone - or does damage wander off?

Edited by Karl Streiger, 11 October 2013 - 12:09 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

Ngamok, on 09 October 2013 - 12:56 PM, said:

Closed Beta Speed was 1200 m/s and 10/15 heat and no HSR. N

Heat values were already tweaked during the CB. The drop to 8 and 11(?) respectively was in OB, but the drop to 9/13 happened in CB.