532 replies to this topic

[Wolfways]

1) The majority of maps are nothing but cover, and most players are sensible enough to use that cover to avoid sniping/LRM's until they get into brawling range.

2) You can avoid snipers but getting into a brawl is pretty much guaranteed. Therefore while the PPC is useless in a brawl the ERPPC can at least be fired a couple of times before you die (assuming you're a dual ERPPC mech and aren't near max heat).

3) I don't consider energy weapons to be non-ammo dependent as you can fit enough ammo to last a match for ballistics vs. having to cram in as many DHS as you can for energy weapons. Plus ammo = 1 ton/1 crit and DHS = 1 ton/3 crit.

I have two mechs that i'd consider my "mains".
K3 (2xERPPC, 2xML, 2xMG) and a JM6-S (2xAC5, 2xAC2, 2xML). I play both mechs basically the same way. I snipe at long range (which to me means it's within extreme range and will do any damage) when possible and try to avoid getting really close (i.e. under 300m).
If i get about 500 damage in a match with the K3 i feel i've had a good game.
If i get less than 600 damage with the JM6-S (with which i only use the ML's on the very rare occasion i run out of ammo) it was a bad match for me, with 600-800 damage being normal, and 1000+ damage not unusual.

The biggest difference between these mechs?
If someone gets within 300m with no cover between us my K3 is more than likely destroyed even if i had no previous damage, while my JM6-S in the same situation will destroy the other mech easily unless heavily damaged already.

Imo, as long as AC's are so powerful energy weapons, especially the ERPPC, are pointless.

Edited by Wolfways, 29 October 2013 - 10:42 AM.

[theta123]

Everytime i see these PPC/ERPPC unnerf threads, i see names of players who were massive PPC boating stalkers or triple PPC/Gauss/jumpjet highlanders...Ruining the fun for normal playing people like me and friends of mine who all quitted PPCWarrior online. The same folks who deny the fact LRM's are underpowered

No...

Screw that

I never wanna go back to those terrible days

[JohnnyWayne]

I never boated PPCs of any kind. I still wish for a proper heat system or weapon balance that makes certain weapons viable with the current one.

I count regular PPCs to it. They were never an issue since heat penaltys (I deny to call it "ghost heat" because it is not). The issue was the combination of PPCs and Gauss and they ****** up to nerf this. Instead they nerfed both weapons independetly for pretty much no reason. Either PPCs or Gauss were fine themselfs at that point.

Gauss are still widely used and PPCs of any kind have become rather rare. Just because some average guy thinks that a premade that uses PPCs is a flood of players using them, does not mean it is that way. I have been playing a lot over the last weeks and I saw more Gauss than PPCs per match. I saw WAY MORE small caliber ballistics as everyone should have noticed.


Boating of any kind sucks (well except lasers, and i like to have a bunch of lasers on a mech...). I didn't like to play back then either. But right now its not less laughable.

You see, all I want is that stock loadouts especially Marauder loadouts are viable. Currently they are ... well lets say "not so much"...

Edited by JohnnyWayne, 26 October 2013 - 04:53 AM.

[theta123]

JohnnyWayne, on 26 October 2013 - 04:51 AM, said:

You see, all I want is that stock loadouts especially Marauder loadouts are viable. Currently they are ... well lets say "not so much"...

Or the stock Awesome Model. Its 3 PPC's are useless with the ghost heat.

[JohnnyWayne]

Yeah or that one. But! I think it should be chassi dependent.

Only that special Awesome should be able to use 3 PPCs without heat penalty, maybe even in this stockcombination of weapons.

[Oni Ralas]

PPC? Never heard of it. I thought AC's were the only weapon available now?

/s

[MischiefSC]

Lupus Aurelius, on 26 October 2013 - 04:10 AM, said:

Again, balance is not a matter of opinion or your personal vision of how things should be. Balance is when there is no obvious superior meta. A non-ballistic mech should be as viable as a ballistic mech for long range and short range combat. Currently, by your own admission, they are not.

By the way, a dual AC20 mech can dual-fire AC20s twice before overheating. Shot 3 and you're overheated and cooking.

Once again you're trying to use a narrow slice of metrics to justify why ERPPCs should be given a heat buff. By the statistics you listed dual Gauss and dual AC10 should be the ultimate, pinnacle weapon loadout yet both are rare as hens teeth.

Why?

Because the metrics you're listing, DPS/HPS, are only a tiny slice of what's actually relevant. A far bigger issue is range and projectile speed as well as that goofy charge-up on Gauss. Also crit spaces and hardpoint availability as well as ammo consumption.

Energy only builds are completely viable, especially with regular PPCs and LLs. In fact the most viable builds in the game are based around 2xPPCs with a ballistic as much for screen-shake as damage, normally a pair of AC5s/UAC5s because missiles are not worth the weight right now and AC5s have a close match in speed and range to the PPCs, creating convergence synergy. They are balanced, and balanced well, by the fact that 2PPCs is pretty warm and have a minimum range. If neither of these were true it'd be pretty OPed.

THAT is what's significant and exactly why ERPPCs should not be viable *in groups*. The ability to competitively engage at almost double the range of any other direct-hit weapon and with a faster projectile speed, not to mention no ammo along with light weight and around 1/4 to 1/5th the crit spaces means they are absolutely superior to any and every weapon without the heat hammer on them.

Once again, we've already covered this. We've already had lower heat ERPPCs. They dominated the game and it was terrible. This isn't some new idea to try and attempting to massage the numbers so the math says it won't be a problem does NOT mean it wasn't and wouldn't again be a problem.

Energy builds are extremely competitive. Ask any light. Ask the 4P hunchie, ask every non-LRM boat Stalker out there with PPCs and LLs. Most mechs carry ballistics because they CAN, because you don't want to waste hardpoints and you've got the weight and room for them and because Ghost Heat punishes people for boating just energy.

So, one more time. We've done the ERPPC thing. When viable for boating they absolutely dominate every other weapon. You are attempting to create a false dilemma where not being able to boat ERPPCs means energy weapon builds are not viable and this isn't true. You are attempting to conflate DPS/HPS as a standard by which to balance which also isn't true. You are also attempting to ignore the several months in which ERPPCs had a lower heat and by dint of that alone dominated - they were on everything, poptart or not, most Jagers ran 2 ERPPCs and whatever ballistics they had the weight left over to fit as backup because 2ERPPCs is literally an AC20 with unlimited ammo and a range of 810m to 1620m if it's not brutally hot.

2ERPPCs is viable. It's just a pure sniper build. When I'm dropping in group with friends who are boating LRMs I put 1xERPPC and tag on my ECM spider and spot for them. I don't wrack up kills but I get a stupid number of spotting/assists, it's my best paying design aside from a 2xLB10X, 2ML, 4xSSRM Jag that nobody would call viable in a competitive match but piles up component destruction and damage to score 100-110 very, very easily.

Because there is a LOT more to what does and doesn't work in MW:O than DPS/HPS.

You're going to respond and I'm going to let it go at this point. I've said my piece repeatedly. We've had lower heat ERPPCs and it was a negative experience. I've explained why repeatedly. I get that you want your 810m - 1620m unlimited ammo AC20 back and that without it you just don't feel competitive in an energy build. Whatever else can be said about PGI though I respect that they are smart enough to never let that happen again.

[Lightfoot]

Yes, too hot for DHS 1.4. If they are going to keep PPCs and ERPPCs at their Battletech ratings the Double Heatsinks have to be raised to Battletech 2.0 values also.

The Awesome, Battlemaster, Thunderbolt, are all energy boats and MWO does not support them anymore because of DHS 1.4 and Ghost Heat. Even if you ignore PPCs, it's wrong for PGI to continue to give players Energy Boat mechs in the game and then refuse to support them with reasonable cooling. What am I supposed to do? Take Medium Lasers against AC20-AC various, plus secondary Large Laser carrying assaults? There is no balance there. None at all.

That's why you can't monkey with Battletech's balancing for heat, weight, and damage too much. It ruins the selling point of having mechs with different loadouts. Right now all MWO supports is Ballistic heavy mechs with the hardpoints in the side torsos or scattered across the mech, at least for Heavies and up. So no reason to release a variety of Mechs when only one weapon type is competitive. That is not balance, it is no balance at all.

[Artgathan]

I'll suggest this again:

Modify Ghost Heat for ER PPC.

Increase the time to 5/6 seconds (if you fire 3+ ERPPC in 5/6 seconds, you get ghost heat). Decrease the base heat for ERPPC.

[Wolfways]

MischiefSC, on 26 October 2013 - 08:25 AM, said:

Energy builds are extremely competitive. Ask any light. Ask the 4P hunchie, ask every non-LRM boat Stalker out there with PPCs and LLs. Most mechs carry ballistics because they CAN, because you don't want to waste hardpoints and you've got the weight and room for them and because Ghost Heat punishes people for boating just energy.

I had a HBK-4P and sold it because i could only fire the hunch lasers occasionally.
I have a STK-3F with stock weapons and in close range fights i have a choice of either firing 4xML's and 2xSRM6 until i shutdown hoping to do as much damage as possible before i'm destroyed, or just not fire for a while and let the enemy mech shoot the {Scrap} out of me.
I don't use a JM6-S because it can carry ballistics or even because i like ballistics (which i don't). I use it because it does carry the most ballistics which makes it the most OP mech in the game (the high arms help).
When/if PGI release a 4xballistic assault mech i will start using that to farm C-Bills instead.

MischiefSC, on 26 October 2013 - 08:25 AM, said:

...not to mention no ammo along with light weight and around 1/4 to 1/5th the crit spaces means they are absolutely superior to any and every weapon without the heat hammer on them.

Do you enjoy using ERPPC's without DHS then?

[Christof Romulus]

theta123, on 26 October 2013 - 04:36 AM, said:

No...

Screw that

I never wanna go back to those terrible days

I laughed when I read this.

But yeah, seriously, no. PPCs are fine.

[Wolfways]

Christof Romulus, on 26 October 2013 - 10:15 AM, said:

I laughed when I read this.

But yeah, seriously, no. PPCs are fine.

At least read the title before posting.

[Christof Romulus]

Wolfways, on 26 October 2013 - 10:18 AM, said:

At least read the title before posting.

Oops!

But yeah, seriously, no. ERPPCs are fine.

[Wolfways]

Christof Romulus, on 26 October 2013 - 11:01 AM, said:

Oops!

But yeah, seriously, no. ERPPCs are fine.

Fine as in useless compared to ballistics and less useful than other energy weapons. But at least more useful than LRM's... maybe.

[MischiefSC]

Wolfways, on 26 October 2013 - 09:36 AM, said:

I had a HBK-4P and sold it because i could only fire the hunch lasers occasionally.
I have a STK-3F with stock weapons and in close range fights i have a choice of either firing 4xML's and 2xSRM6 until i shutdown hoping to do as much damage as possible before i'm destroyed, or just not fire for a while and let the enemy mech shoot the {Scrap} out of me.
I don't use a JM6-S because it can carry ballistics or even because i like ballistics (which i don't). I use it because it does carry the most ballistics which makes it the most OP mech in the game (the high arms help).
When/if PGI release a 4xballistic assault mech i will start using that to farm C-Bills instead.


Do you enjoy using ERPPC's without DHS then?

Sorry you struggle with the 4P. I hated the stalkers due to lack of maneuverability, my Atlas feels more nimble. Would you say the 3C Cicada is the best Cicada build though? Most ballistic hardpoints.
There's 1 light with ballistics, a Spider. A long ways from being the most dangerous light, that'd be jenners with all energy.
Blackjacks run all energy and tear it up.
Centurions have a ballistic hardpoint but nobody uses it.
Trebuchets? Kintaros? Shadowhawks are pretty much all ballistic and missile so fair enough they don't tend to boat energy.
Dragons? Most run PPCs or LLs, sometimes you'll see a ballistics DPS build on one but it's pretty even.
QD is energy and missile and runs very well for its weight.
Most good Catapult builds are energy dependent or missile/energy mixes. The K2 has an even energy/ballistics mix and needs both.
Jags are the games only ballistic-centered mech and people still run energy on them.
Thunderbolt is possibly the best Phoenix mech and runs energy - and does it well. MLs and PPCs FTW!
Phract is often ballistic - specifically because the Iliya is the best mech for triple AC5s or similar builds. Still though everyone in a 3D probably has 2xPPCs in those high shoulder mounts and some AC setup to keep the damage on when they start getting hot. Find me a 3D without most of its firepower as energy that's competitive.
Orion - if you run XL it's mostly energy and missiles, if you run standard that does wrap around the AC20 well. Still though, most my damage in mine is either 2xLLs or 4xMLs with the AC20 and SRMs for punctuation.
Awesome? Energy all the way.
Victor? 50/50, 2xPPCs or 2xLLs and some AC setup. Ballistics work best when split evenly with energy weapons.
Same with all the other Assaults save the Stalker, which crushes with energy and missiles.

So. Pretty much every mech in the game save the Jager is focused on energy weapons and well balanced. It used to be that every mech in the game including the Jager had 2 ERPPCs and whatever else would fit on it. That was not good so ERPPCs were made too hot to be universally superior.

So, again. I get that you want an AC20 with 810 to 1620m range and unlimited ammo. I do. I get that. You'll have to settle for an AC10 with 810-1620m range and unlimited ammo. An AC20 is just a bit much. ERPPCs are still out there, they're just in dedicated roles. Like Gauss, LRMs and... well, sorta like pulse but pulse are broken and non-viable. ERPPCs are better than pulse lasers still at least.

[KharnZor]

MischiefSC, on 26 October 2013 - 11:30 AM, said:

Victor? 50/50, 2xPPCs or 2xLLs and some AC setup. Ballistics work best when split evenly with energy weapons.

The worst Vic fit ever.
I've rarely ever put more than 1 erppc on any mech ever. The heat has always put me off. More so now.

[Christof Romulus]

Wolfways, on 26 October 2013 - 11:11 AM, said:

Fine as in useless compared to ballistics and less useful than other energy weapons. But at least more useful than LRM's... maybe.

*Sigh* Alright, since I'm not doing anything other than watching the StarCraft 2 Heart of the Swarm tournament that's going on I may as well type out an actual response.

I've said this before in other posts, but I'll say it again as I believe it is still true: In the CURRENT state of the game, the ERPPC is properly balanced.

When MWO first started the ERPPC had identical stats to what they are now. People complained, a LOT, and rightfully so, but for the following reasons:
1. Hit detection was so much worse than it is now that it's not worth explaining, ERPPCs would miss point blank targets, as well as distance targets, and it cost the insane 15 heat to make the attempt.
2. Maps were SMALL. (Imagine River City, Caustic Valley, and Forest-colony being the ONLY maps).
3. Mechs were FAST. (Imagine an XL400 in an Awesome or Dragon pushing these mechs to over 80kph, Jenners using XL400 engines to push themselves so fast they made people shooting at them DISCONNECT FROM THE GAME)

However, since that time PGI has made some changes:
1. Hit detection is better. Not perfect, not "great" not "World of Tanks", but better than it was before. You no longer have to lead your target by 3 inches on screen to have any hope of hitting them.
2. Larger maps have been released.
3. Mechs are SLOW.

So what does this all mean? You have relative accuracy that is reliable over great distances against slow targets, which means the engagement range has SKYROCKETED compared to over a year ago (when the ERPPC first had these stats). It was not uncommon for every mech in the game in one big brawl, 270m or less.
Now, engagements are 540+ consistently. The ERPPC brings the ability to drop 10 points of precision damage farter than every other weapon, save the Gauss. I honestly think that there should be a cost for this increased damage, and I also believe that 15 heat is an appropriate cost to pay.

I also want to point out that while ERPPCs CAN shoot at closer than 90m, if you are in that situation, you're doing it wrong.

Now you're comparing ERPPCs to Ballistics, which is fine, but do it at the ranges that the ERPPC is meant to function, and remember that the ERPPC is doing precision strikes, and also remember that when you make that comparison, Ballistics by their nature have a higher DPS than energy weapons.

Also consider the difference between the PPC and ERPPC - there must be a tangible difference between these weapons, lest the PPC fall into obscurity.

Is 15 heat per shot a LOT? Yes.
Is 10 precision damage over 690 meters WORTH 15 heat per shot in the current meta? Yes.

[Wolfways]

Christof Romulus, on 26 October 2013 - 12:16 PM, said:

*Sigh* Alright, since I'm not doing anything other than watching the StarCraft 2 Heart of the Swarm tournament that's going on I may as well type out an actual response.

I've said this before in other posts, but I'll say it again as I believe it is still true: In the CURRENT state of the game, the ERPPC is properly balanced.

When MWO first started the ERPPC had identical stats to what they are now. People complained, a LOT, and rightfully so, but for the following reasons:
1. Hit detection was so much worse than it is now that it's not worth explaining, ERPPCs would miss point blank targets, as well as distance targets, and it cost the insane 15 heat to make the attempt.
2. Maps were SMALL. (Imagine River City, Caustic Valley, and Forest-colony being the ONLY maps).
3. Mechs were FAST. (Imagine an XL400 in an Awesome or Dragon pushing these mechs to over 80kph, Jenners using XL400 engines to push themselves so fast they made people shooting at them DISCONNECT FROM THE GAME)

However, since that time PGI has made some changes:
1. Hit detection is better. Not perfect, not "great" not "World of Tanks", but better than it was before. You no longer have to lead your target by 3 inches on screen to have any hope of hitting them.
2. Larger maps have been released.
3. Mechs are SLOW.

So what does this all mean? You have relative accuracy that is reliable over great distances against slow targets, which means the engagement range has SKYROCKETED compared to over a year ago (when the ERPPC first had these stats). It was not uncommon for every mech in the game in one big brawl, 270m or less.
Now, engagements are 540+ consistently. The ERPPC brings the ability to drop 10 points of precision damage farter than every other weapon, save the Gauss. I honestly think that there should be a cost for this increased damage, and I also believe that 15 heat is an appropriate cost to pay.

I also want to point out that while ERPPCs CAN shoot at closer than 90m, if you are in that situation, you're doing it wrong.

Now you're comparing ERPPCs to Ballistics, which is fine, but do it at the ranges that the ERPPC is meant to function, and remember that the ERPPC is doing precision strikes, and also remember that when you make that comparison, Ballistics by their nature have a higher DPS than energy weapons.

Also consider the difference between the PPC and ERPPC - there must be a tangible difference between these weapons, lest the PPC fall into obscurity.

Is 15 heat per shot a LOT? Yes.
Is 10 precision damage over 690 meters WORTH 15 heat per shot in the current meta? Yes.

Funny, i remember people complaining about ERPPC's because at 15 they were too hot to be worth using, not actually a problem with the weapon itself but more to do with the broken heat system. Don't remember anyone complaining about the things you mention.
I do remember PPC's spreading damage across mechs...mainly because it still happens.
I also remember most mechs being slower due to not everyone using big XL engines because of R&R. There's even at least one YouTube video pointing that out.
Strange how PGI stated R&R was part of the reason AC's were OP, yet they haven't nerfed them since removing R&R...

EDIT: Maybe you should make your mind up before you post, as in this thread: http://mwomercs.com/...33#entry2872433 you say ERPPC's are not a viable weapon.

Edited by Wolfways, 26 October 2013 - 03:24 PM.

[Mystere]

Openly declaring that ERPPCs should be suboptimal, in any situation no less, is already an indication that balance is not what its opponents desire, but rather the elimination of the ERPPC as a viable weapon.

Did everyone forget about the abysmal state of the Awesome?

[Christof Romulus]

Wolfways, on 26 October 2013 - 03:13 PM, said:

Funny, i remember people complaining about ERPPC's because at 15 they were too hot to be worth using, not actually a problem with the weapon itself but more to do with the broken heat system. Don't remember anyone complaining about the things you mention.
I do remember PPC's spreading damage across mechs...mainly because it still happens.
I also remember most mechs being slower due to not everyone using big XL engines because of R&R. There's even at least one YouTube video pointing that out.
Strange how PGI stated R&R was part of the reason AC's were OP, yet they haven't nerfed them since removing R&R...

EDIT: Maybe you should make your mind up before you post, as in this thread: http://mwomercs.com/...33#entry2872433 you say ERPPC's are not a viable weapon.

Keep reading in that post - I cover my seemingly diametrically opposed views.

Here's the deal - If you want to engage enemies at great distances with precision damage, the ERPPC is the way to do it. You pay for that with heat. Repeated, continual shots with the ERPPC won't add up over short distances compared to what you're paying, but if you can manage to keep people at the ERPPC's engagement range of 690ish meters and do the same, it is.

In that post I indicate it isn't viable, simply because while I do believe that if you want to engage people at that range, 15 heat is a reasonable price to pay, I do NOT believe that is such an insurmountable advantage over the PPC that it finds its own niche - there are too many maps that don't even allow that kind of engagement with any reliability. But, just because the maps don't support it doesn't mean that the weapon should be changed.