427 replies to this topic

[PropagandaWar]

Artgathan, on 11 October 2013 - 02:41 PM, said:

I can do well in my Centurion as well (going 1v1 against assaults) so long as the Assault pilot is not particularly competent. If they let me get behind them (and can't figure out how to get me off their back) they're toast. However any Assault pilot with a brain and good eyes will vaporize me.

However, individual anecdotes do not a convincing case make. The only reason I break out my Centurion (which is my favorite mech) in "organized" play is because my unit sometimes drops with tonnage limits. Even then though I prefer to take a Jenner or Victor when possible.

I can go against a competent assault. Ive been running mediums since day one. Yeah you have to work a tad bit harder at first to get used to them they definitely aren't easy mode. I think the best pilots don't actually run assault mechs, but that's my opinion. Oh sure you'll see them pop off high damage but you'll usually see higher damage from heavies/assist/kills first though

Edited by PropagandaWar, 11 October 2013 - 05:12 PM.

[ArchSight]

aniviron, on 10 October 2013 - 05:59 AM, said:

The rest of your post details how to fight at long range, which is great, but there are two things you don't address that you really need to if you want to take this line of inquiry (and I am well familiar with it, after a thousand people yelling "THE AWESOME IS A SUPPORT MECH JUST STAY BACK AND DON'T FIRE IF YOU ARE TIRED OF DYING")

The first is that you don't always get to dictate your engagement range. What if there is somebody faster than you? If you're in the back of the pack sniping, you're small to most of the enemies out there, even if you are as big as a highlander. The person you're NOT small to is that JR7-F who thinks your gigantic frame and pithy armor will melt like plastic in a microwave. He's only 250m away from you, because he's small and fast, and now you're big and dead. Doesn't help much. Staying away also has problems against non-light mechs, if you're playing against good teams (or just premades who have VOIP) who can communicate when one lance is pushing so that the surprise Steiner scout lance sneaks up for 400 tons of "oh hi" at 200m.

Well there are a few things that allow a player to avoid being picked off by lights.
One is your team being within range of you. Two is knowing where the lights are so you don't walk into an area where they will get to you at the wrong time. Three is having a medium mech that can kill a light just as fast as it kills your medium. They're might be more than just these three.

I can shoot at this jenner before he gets in range to soften him up but if I don't see it before that jenner gets that close it will still be a even fight. The reason why is because my long range medium mechs can brawl with light mechs. They have lower armor than me and I have more armor than them. I have firepower that is nearly the same as the JR7-F can do. It is only skill that determines the winner and loser here. If I mess up by not paying attention to the jenner before it gets the first shot off than that's my own fault, not the medium mech that I'm piloting. This is if just assuming it's a 1 on 1 fight but if's a team fight with lance vs lance yet again individual player skill will decide. It's possible to have a long range medium mech that can do nearly the same amount of damage per second as a Jenner with 6 medium lasers.

Ok, if a surprise Steiner scout lance which is 4 Assault mechs sneaks up on my 4 medium mech lance I won't doubt someone will die with that much firepower hitting one or two targets at a time. Although, I believe it's possible that some of the medium mechs will survive while if they were a different class will unlikely have any survivors. It's possible that If they were heavy's they would have a different result where some assaults could of been taken down but no heavy mech would be able to escape their destruction. This is only if that happens, It's not a fact that this will happen to every medium mech lance. There can be a equally skilled team that uses medium mech long range flanking as effectively as a team that can sneak a assault lance into close range combat.

aniviron, on 10 October 2013 - 05:59 AM, said:

The other problem with it is that this is not a tactic that is exclusive to mediums. It turns out that every single class can use this exact same tactic, and they all also do it better than mediums. Lights can still mount long range weaponry and use their small size to be even harder to hit, while heavies and assaults are the same size as most mediums, but in the event that it comes down to a sniper fight they're the same tiny size but have double the armor. That's just not a battle you're going to win.

No lights, Heavy's, and Assaults do not do this tactic better than mediums because their advantages are also their disadvantages.

Lights using long range firing weapons are under gunned vs light mechs that have close range weapons.

Heavy's and Assaults are not faster than Heavy's and Assaults. A Heavy and a Assault can't take cover or avoid projectiles faster than a Heavy and a Assault. They are not faster than each other at taking strategic position's from each other.

Heavy's and Assaults expose themselves to weapons fire longer than Medium Mechs when trying to fire over or around hills. The new movement change that PGI did slows mechs down when traversing terrain at different angles for each weight class. Medium Mechs possibly, don't get stuck on rocks as often as Heavy's and Assaults. The longer exposure time from heavy's and Assaults being slower results in Medium mechs getting more accurate shots on Heavy's and Assaults at long range.

I also forgot to tell about the strafing movement pattern that avoids projectile weapons at long range. It's stopping and going but parrelel too the target that is shooting at you. it messes up player lead time. It works, I use it all the time.

So did that cover the two things?

[Vassago Rain]

Hey, did you guys hear about this newfangled shadowhawk?

[Taemien]

I have to ask this question to the ones who created this discussion and the ones who support it,

What is your desired goal?

I ask this because I've seen many of these 'buff mediums' or ' make mediums more desirable' threads pop up and see very little sustenance to them. The reason for this is relatively unknown, but I do have a hypothesis on them. That is that people want to see OTHERS in mediums but not themselves.

Meaning they ask for weight restrictions, but thats so they can have more mediums for their heavy mechs to shoot at. Or cbill bonuses so others will use them, but they sit in their maxed out Heavies and Assaults. And they really don't want Mediums buffed because then they would pose more of a threat.

This is why I ask that question.

Now.. I believe mediums can use a buff. But my agenda (or goal, whatever you want to call it, I guess it would be goal since I don't own any mediums beside the founder hunchback), and I'll admit to having one, is to see them be more competitive.

Lets be realistic here. Buffing Cbills? That does what in competitive Merc Corps matches or league games (once private matches are allowed)? It does what to those with maxed out assets? Weight restrictions, what does that do in the end? Force people into mechs they may not want to be in? Be fodder for the ones who were lucky enough to get in with their assaults?

Come on, we need REAL solutions. Medium mechs should be a viable choice between the different weight classes. Role warfare be damned. MWLL didn't have it outside narcers and taggers (aka Ravens and Cougars). But their mediums mechs were some of the most dangerous machines on the field. Bushwhackers and Shadowcats used in a flanking maneuver had firepower, armor, and speed to move in, wreck something and get out.

Pinpoint accuracy didn't stop them. Convergence didn't stop them. The only thing that stopped them was an organized defense, or other medium mechs.

Now we know the goal that will actually help Mediums, and its been proven to work in another CryEngine MechWarrior game. Lets figure out how to get there.

The change that increased the torso twist ranges and such was a good start. That gives them wider fields of fire which will be needed in what I call stage 2. Stage 2 is to increase their acceleration and deceleration to match that of light mechs. Speed increases aren't really needed except on some of the really slower variants to make them competitive to faster variants (sort of like what they have planned for the Raven 2X and 4X). And that just means allowing them to mount bigger engines.

Make mediums into nimble fast machines with enough armor to take a hit and you will see them used by light mech pilots who want a little more punch. You will also see them used by fast heavy mech pilots who want a little more speed.

Does this destroy the roles of lights? No. They still remain the kings of speed (especially after the next proposed changes to speed in the future). Does it destroy heavies? Not really. They still mount ever so much more armor and weapons for those that want more punch but don't want to be in an assault.

But of course the problem is, as I've said in the beginning. Many people are actually afraid this might happen and do not wish to see it. Most of them will actually remain quiet. The ones who suggested the carrot on a stick approach or weight limits. They probably won't respond to this. The ones that do I doubt will respond favorably. They'll try to find some hole or some reason to prevent this from occurring. Because like I said, they don't really wish to see mediums buffed as it will make them a threat.

[Zyllos]

Taemien, on 12 October 2013 - 11:02 AM, said:

I have to ask this question to the ones who created this discussion and the ones who support it,

What is your desired goal?

I ask this because I've seen many of these 'buff mediums' or ' make mediums more desirable' threads pop up and see very little sustenance to them. The reason for this is relatively unknown, but I do have a hypothesis on them. That is that people want to see OTHERS in mediums but not themselves.

Meaning they ask for weight restrictions, but thats so they can have more mediums for their heavy mechs to shoot at. Or cbill bonuses so others will use them, but they sit in their maxed out Heavies and Assaults. And they really don't want Mediums buffed because then they would pose more of a threat.

This is why I ask that question.

Now.. I believe mediums can use a buff. But my agenda (or goal, whatever you want to call it, I guess it would be goal since I don't own any mediums beside the founder hunchback), and I'll admit to having one, is to see them be more competitive.

Lets be realistic here. Buffing Cbills? That does what in competitive Merc Corps matches or league games (once private matches are allowed)? It does what to those with maxed out assets? Weight restrictions, what does that do in the end? Force people into mechs they may not want to be in? Be fodder for the ones who were lucky enough to get in with their assaults?

Come on, we need REAL solutions. Medium mechs should be a viable choice between the different weight classes. Role warfare be damned. MWLL didn't have it outside narcers and taggers (aka Ravens and Cougars). But their mediums mechs were some of the most dangerous machines on the field. Bushwhackers and Shadowcats used in a flanking maneuver had firepower, armor, and speed to move in, wreck something and get out.

Pinpoint accuracy didn't stop them. Convergence didn't stop them. The only thing that stopped them was an organized defense, or other medium mechs.

Now we know the goal that will actually help Mediums, and its been proven to work in another CryEngine MechWarrior game. Lets figure out how to get there.

The change that increased the torso twist ranges and such was a good start. That gives them wider fields of fire which will be needed in what I call stage 2. Stage 2 is to increase their acceleration and deceleration to match that of light mechs. Speed increases aren't really needed except on some of the really slower variants to make them competitive to faster variants (sort of like what they have planned for the Raven 2X and 4X). And that just means allowing them to mount bigger engines.

Make mediums into nimble fast machines with enough armor to take a hit and you will see them used by light mech pilots who want a little more punch. You will also see them used by fast heavy mech pilots who want a little more speed.

Does this destroy the roles of lights? No. They still remain the kings of speed (especially after the next proposed changes to speed in the future). Does it destroy heavies? Not really. They still mount ever so much more armor and weapons for those that want more punch but don't want to be in an assault.

But of course the problem is, as I've said in the beginning. Many people are actually afraid this might happen and do not wish to see it. Most of them will actually remain quiet. The ones who suggested the carrot on a stick approach or weight limits. They probably won't respond to this. The ones that do I doubt will respond favorably. They'll try to find some hole or some reason to prevent this from occurring. Because like I said, they don't really wish to see mediums buffed as it will make them a threat.

Why is it always speed and agility the only thing that will help Medium mechs?

What about Hunchbanks with AC/20s or Centurions with AC/10s and LRMs?

Speed shouldn't be the focus of making things better. The whole reason why this matters in the meta is because we have pin point convergence where speed and size is the only thing that is a factor in adding misses or hit locations that are not where the enemy was aiming at.

But, with how the current mechanics are made, speed and size is the only thing that is going to fix the issue, and that is why I see MWO is a poor condition for it's core game. We are using an armor system that assumes distributed damage with aiming mechanics that all weapons hit exactly where you aim. While this remains, it's either speed and small vs. go big or go home. There is no inbetween.

[Taemien]

Zyllos, on 12 October 2013 - 11:39 AM, said:

Why is it always speed and agility the only thing that will help Medium mechs?

What about Hunchbanks with AC/20s or Centurions with AC/10s and LRMs?

Speed shouldn't be the focus of making things better. The whole reason why this matters in the meta is because we have pin point convergence where speed and size is the only thing that is a factor in adding misses or hit locations that are not where the enemy was aiming at.

But, with how the current mechanics are made, speed and size is the only thing that is going to fix the issue, and that is why I see MWO is a poor condition for it's core game. We are using an armor system that assumes distributed damage with aiming mechanics that all weapons hit exactly where you aim. While this remains, it's either speed and small vs. go big or go home. There is no inbetween.

Because it worked in MWLL. In MWLL the armor values were a bit higher if you compared to how many shots it took to take down a medium (5 PPCs in MWO vs 7 in MWLL). So the idea that current mechanics don't work doesn't make sense, if anything they should go a bit further.

Its always been small and go fast (small doesn't mean you can't bring an AC20, thats why you have DHS, and other advanced tech to lighten the load), or go big and slow.

Changing convergence or pinpoint accuracy does NOTHING. Absolutely NOTHING. Because when Assaults can't hit accurately, guess what? Mediums can't either. So guess what happens. The assault maybe gets a scratch by the time the medium is destroyed.

This is why I think you people aren't serious about fixing mediums. I am not going to assume that you all are so dense to realize that changing how weapons hit targets wouldn't affect mediums too. In fact I'm going to say you know that fact and know it well which is why you really don't want to see mediums fixed. But rather nerfed further.

Inaccurate weapon fire buffs heavy armor. Inaccurate fire actually puts luck into the equation which for most makes it easier for them to land lucky shots on faster moving targets. You all think people like me don't realize that?

If this actually isn't your intent, then lets focus on things that will actually help mediums. So far, my suggestion already has precedence in actually working (in a CryEngine based MechWarrior game at that). Lets see what you got.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

Zylios, it's very unlikely that we will get any changes to the core game now, so we have to work with what is. The biggest help would be to de-couple agility (ie torso twist speed etc) from engine size. Make it chassis based. this means "fast" heavies and assaults couldn't turn as fast. Why buy a ShadowHawk when you can do better in a Victor?

[Ghogiel]

Taemien, on 12 October 2013 - 11:02 AM, said:

Weight restrictions, what does that do in the end? Force people into mechs they may not want to be in? Be fodder for the ones who were lucky enough to get in with teir assaults?

Assault mech master race.

[Nryrony]

Ghogiel, on 12 October 2013 - 12:37 PM, said:

Assault mech master race.

Hmm, not sure thats an exclusive. Mostly it are some Assaults as well as Heavys.

Stalker for example, a pretty unimpressive Assault mech, so is the Awesome.

[Taemien]

Nik Van Rhijn, on 12 October 2013 - 12:28 PM, said:

Zylios, it's very unlikely that we will get any changes to the core game now, so we have to work with what is. The biggest help would be to de-couple agility (ie torso twist speed etc) from engine size. Make it chassis based. this means "fast" heavies and assaults couldn't turn as fast. Why buy a ShadowHawk when you can do better in a Victor?

This is what I'm looking for.

You mentioned a good point, one I failed to mention (kudos to you for bringing it up). In the dev posts, specifically the QnAs they mentioned that it would be unfeasible to change how convergence works. It has to do with server side hit detection. Many shooters that have convergence changes like the ones people wish, have client side hit detection. They also have issues with hacking. PGI has decided not to even bother trying to fight a war with hacks (at least on the client side front, the server side one is much much easier to manage). Though it does make mechanics like HSR harder to deal with. But at least the problem is there, doesn't change, and isn't dynamic like client side hacks would be.

So I don't know why people even bring the issue of convergence up. They know its not going to happen in MWO. So why even bring it to the table in these debates? This is why I accuse them of just fluffing it up to bring us away from the real issue. If they were serious about fixing mediums, they wouldn't try to derail the topic into one on convergence or pinpoint accuracy. As they KNOW those issues can't be addressed in MWO. They aren't stupid or ignorant. At least I'm not going to assume they are by this point.

[RandomLurker]

Zyllos, on 12 October 2013 - 11:39 AM, said:

Why is it always speed and agility the only thing that will help Medium mechs?

What about Hunchbanks with AC/20s or Centurions with AC/10s and LRMs?

Because these fittings are treading into Heavy gameplay style, and they are obviously inferior at that.

The advantage of mediums is their unique mix of speed and firepower. What they lack in solo effectiveness they make up for by playing well with groups. A medium mech should be fast enough to get to anywhere on the friendly battleline that it's needed. Sometimes that means sweeping up light mechs; sometimes it means adding more firepower to assaults; sometimes it means flanking and finishing what the assaults have softened up. It means playing midfield harasser to slow enemy advances and be available to RTB when needed.

In other words, piloting a medium mech is not about how hard you hit, but where and what you hit. This means mediums as a chassis require the most situational awareness and tactical sense of any mech class. This gives them a high skill floor and high ceiling. It also makes them the most vulnerable to fail groups, which is why they generally are seen as doing so badly. It means they generally either succeed spectacularly, or fail spectacularly, with limitid middle ground. Lastly, it means that a slow medium (<90 kph or so) is fail and should be piloting a heavy instead.

Edited by RandomLurker, 12 October 2013 - 01:27 PM.

[Zyllos]

Very sad to see the community to respond this way...beginning to see that HRR Insanity was right in that this will never change, be continuously perpetuate the "summing" of weapons and bringing no variance to the game.

I do not see how anyone that is serious about longevity of MechWarrior think this is enjoyable to have the core game play the way it does.

Can only hope the few posting here is not what the majority wants, seeing the same problems over and over, plaguing MechWarrior sense it's existence.

Edited by Zyllos, 12 October 2013 - 02:11 PM.

[LordBraxton]

Ahem.....

I KNOW

MAKE THEM TALLER THEN AN 80 TON MECH!

EVERYONE WILL PLAY THEM!

JUST LOOK AT THE SHATHAWK!

[Strum Wealh]

Cragger, on 11 October 2013 - 11:39 AM, said:

You are absolutely correct that the square-cubed law cannot be directly applied to height if applied under the assumption internal mass densities remain the same as the volume increases. Height is only a single dimension of the surface are of a mech. Battlemechs need to scale in surface area correctly as their mass increases (assuming average density is constant) and not just their height.

This is important because some mechs have large side profiles compared to similar tonnage mechs. So if they were given heights determined purely by tonnage they would end up being at a overall disadvantage to 'slimmer' battle mechs of equal height and tonnage.

A good illustration of this is a M4 Sherman tank is only 10 inches shorter then the height as a Panzer VI Tiger despite the Tiger tank massing in at almost twice the tonnage. Yet the M4 Sherman is clearly smaller in that it is not as long nor as wide as the Panzer VI Tiger.

Calculating surface area of a 3d model is not difficult as the tools can do it for you. From there is is simply a matter of scaling until the surface area meets the proper value thus determining the height.

The M4 Sherman vs Tiger I example is an interesting one, in that it demonstrates the independence of mass and volume for the combat vehicles.
Though, there were obviously other design considerations; both vehicles had to accommodate a 5-man crew, the drive systems, the weaponry (75mm for the Sherman, vs 88mm for the Tiger), and so on. As such, the general size range was likely as small as they could be made and still be able to contain all of the necessary equipment and personnel.
Also, it would seem that a lot of the Tiger's extra mass came from the fact that much of its armor was 33+% thicker in most locations.

That being said...

A number of 'Mech heights were determined fairly early on.
Here is a chart, courtesy of "Adridos" and "Bishop Steiner" circa January 2013:


By comparison, here is a table I made based on the information presented in my previous post:

This table assumes a constant overall density, such that a decrease in volume produces a proportional decrease in mass.
This table also assumes that the Square-Cube Law is applied (such that a linear change in size/scale produces a cubic change in volume).
This table uses the MWO rendition of the Atlas (height determined to be 17.6 meters, as demonstrated on the Adridos/Bishop chart) as the reference point.
Note that this table is most applicable to upright (e.g. the torso is, or is nearly, "taller" than it is "wide" or "deep"/"long") humanoids (such as the Commando, Centurion, and Atlas); it makes no attempt to be applicable to "hunched-over" 'Mechs whose torso is significantly "wider" or "deeper/longer" than it is "tall" (such as the Raven, Dragon, Catapult, or Stalker). Nor does it attempt to address the differences in build between upright humanoid 'Mechs (e.g. the Centurion and Trebuchet being "skinnier"/"lankier" than the Hunchback, or the Atlas).

What the table does do, however, is show how tall an Atlas would be if a rescaled to the mass of any other given BattleMech, assuming overall density (that is, total mass divided by total volume) is held constant and the Square-Cube Law is applied (as a number of proponents of 'Mech rescaling have suggested).

Now, for a comparison between the Adridos/Bishop chart and my previous table:

Of note is how each of the upright 'Mechs except the Commando is within one meter (or, alternatively, within a single-digit percentage) of the height suggested by "scaling to the Atlas".

This data supports three statements:

• The Medium 'Mechs are more-or-less "the right size", or close enough that the differences are negligable.
  
• The Light 'Mechs are "too small".
  
• One method of "helping the Medium 'Mechs" is to being the Light 'Mechs in-line with the other weight classes with regard to scaling (as it is the Lights, not the Mediums, that are off-scale), thus narrowing the gap between the Mediums and one of their primary competitors.

Thoughts?

(P.S.: Does anyone have data on the in-game heights of those 'Mechs not shown on the above-posted Adridos/Bishop chart?)

[CrashieJ]

bonus cash for underused chassis/weightclasses

done, incentive rewards work wonders

[Taemien]

While I agree, smaller profiles would help immensely with some mediums. Its another one of those unfeasible things. Again the devs said why they couldn't do it, or rather why they can't do it right now. I'm not trying to put down everyone's ideas, its just that I'm trying to be realistic.

But another unfortunate reality is the support on the community's part for medium mechs. People simply don't want to pilot them, and they don't want them to be a threat. Thats a sad fact. If this wasn't true, then why isn't there a crazy ton of threads and discussion about Mediums like there was about ECM, Consumables, and 3rd Person view?

Simply said, there will be more outcry about LRMs recieving a .2 dmg increase per missile in 3 hours of it being patched in than every Medium mech discussion thread to date combined. There's the real issue. Not enough interest.

[Takony]

This thread should be stick(y)ed.
Up into the mech scaling devs' ***.

<S>

[xMEPHISTOx]

The only way I see them (meds) being used more frequently will be when there are weight restrictions. But this may only really help in the 12 vs. 12's and CW's battles.

[YueFei]

Tonnage or class restrictions are an artificial way of forcing people to use Mediums, and is a complete and utter cop-out when it comes to fulfilling the vision of role warfare making every weight class desirable to play.

To make different weight classes fulfill different roles, you first have to define those roles, and each role's strengths and weaknesses.

American football features athletes of vastly different sizes and speeds. The game is designed in a way to encourage and *necessitate* such a variety. There's no such thing as NFL rules that mandate that your team can weigh only between X pounds and Y pounds, no more or less. There's no such thing as an NFL rule that says you have to have X players above 300 pounds, Y players between 250 and 299, and Z players between 200 and 249.

This game needs to be designed in such a way that all sizes of mechs are desirable and necessary.

[FupDup]

Strum Wealh, on 12 October 2013 - 02:51 PM, said:

-snip-

This data supports three statements:

• The Medium 'Mechs are more-or-less "the right size", or close enough that the differences are negligable.
  
• The Light 'Mechs are "too small".
  
• One method of "helping the Medium 'Mechs" is to being the Light 'Mechs in-line with the other weight classes with regard to scaling (as it is the Lights, not the Mediums, that are off-scale), thus narrowing the gap between the Mediums and one of their primary competitors.

Thoughts?

Making lights big will just force the capping role onto mediums instead, because lights would become completely unviable and nigh useless. This means that forumgoers would rage at mediums for capping points instead of lights, and would rage that they miss a shot against them once in a blue moon. Not much progress if you ask me.


The problem with your data is that it's based on physics. We are playing a game about fighting giant robots across the galaxy--as such, using realism as an argument is an automatic fail. In terms of gameplay, medium mechs being large targets reduces their combat effectiveness significantly because, naturally, it means that they get hit nearly as often as heavy mechs, but they have less armor to absorb it, and thus they crumble faster. The medium mechs' speed advantage over heavies doesn't have much effect due to this size similarity (and also because the speed isn't that much greater anyways).


Currently medium mechs are sized like heavy mechs that haven't yet grown up. What they need to be sized like are beefy light mechs, which would help them avoid damage in a similar way that lights can (but to a lesser extent) and thus improve their combat effectiveness. A medium is NEVER going to be able to compare to the armor and firepower of a heavy, so making them the size of a heavy will end in disaster. They can, however, exceed the firepower and armor of light mechs, so it makes more sense to bring them closer to lights rather than keeping them close to heavies.

You can think of the weight classes as opposite ends of the spectrum: with lights on the far left and assaults on the far right. As you progress to the right on this spectrum, your firepower and armor increase at the expense of speed. What you are attempting to do is drag mediums and lights closer to the right end of the scale, which puts them into more direct competition with heavies over the armor and firepower roles--a competition which they are doomed to fail by their very construction. You are basically putting fish into competition with rabbits for running land races. What I am asking for is for fish to stay in the water where they belong, and leave the land running to rabbits.


The only way out of this mess is to bring mediums closer to the left side of this spectrum, so that they can be different and distinct from heavies and assaults--rather than just inferior clones of them. A medium will never out-heavy a heavy, so instead shrink them so they are directly competing with lights instead of heavies. Mediums, if scaled smaller, stand a good chance at competing against lights. Mediums would simply remain utterly inferior to heavies if you simply upscaled lights, and the problem would not be solved at all.

Edited by FupDup, 12 October 2013 - 05:25 PM.